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2:02 PM
@Atheist - note that he does not "need" worship. He merely likes/wants/demands it. Its not that God needed to create, he just wanted to. He could have just destroyed Satan (or even not ordained him) but he wanted to glory from that and thus he has allowed him to exist (and in fact ordained for him to exist in the first place).
@Atheist I think what we have here is a failure to understand the implications of a perfect/omnipotent/omniscient being. Trying to compare God and how he works with our human existence (including your example) is pretty feeble. However lets go with a different comparison. Lets look at God as a king. He has subjects from all over the land. As his subjects come in to him they put gifts at his feet. Some bring what they can, he treasures even the lowest gift (for instance someone who makes rag balls brings their finest creation, still just a rag ball). However a man comes and brings no tribute.
-> cont'd. The man who brings no tribute is thrown in jail and hanged. If God is a king and deserving of our worship then we should bring to him whatever we have, even if all we can do is present him with rag balls.
room topic changed to Discussion of how a perfect God still needs our worship.: Imported from a comment discussion on christianity.stackexchange.com/questions/3740/… [eden] [genesis]
2:14 PM
@Atheist ? less reach out and (in my beliefs) snatch you from the pit of hell and make you one of his own :)
he did send his son into his kingdom to collect his tribute, but his son and his small band of followers were also scoffed at spat upon and finally killed.
@Atheist great question. In fact that king has revealed himself, through his prophets, through his son, through his gracious rule. There is only one king and the various userpers who are attempting to take that thrown know it too. They are all corrupt in various ways (including some who claim to serve the true king).
have you ever seen the leader of your country in person? have you shaken his hands? has he personally asked you to pay taxes? you still pay your taxes right?
@Atheist what if I told you God was the same way? In fact even more obvious and more easily seen and heard? Perhaps less easily understood, but even easier to access?
One of the more interesting concepts is the idea of General Revelation. That creation contains all that is needed to believe in God and be saved. (if you are silent these very rocks will cry out....etc)
1. The Church was founded by humans sinful beings at their core.
2. Different people will understand the same concept in different ways
3. Expansion through division, by having small disagreements the church has spread.
4. We are prone to squabbling over minor details.
2. Different people will understand the same concept in different ways
3. Expansion through division, by having small disagreements the church has spread.
4. We are prone to squabbling over minor details.
however most churches agree on the major issues and disagree on some minor ones that have little to do with the larger message.
I think point 2 may be the biggest one, certain denominations are really good at expressing certain points, and others at expressing other points. No one has it entirely correct, but at the same time the different emphasis if different churches may help spread the message by reaching different kinds of people
@Atheist Basically that Jesus Christ died for our sins and that is what saves us. Believing in him is the only way to salvation. That is pretty much the crux of Salvation
@Atheist can you imagine being perfect? and then suddenly getting the weight of 10 billion (conservatively) years of sin and imperfection loaded onto your shoulders. Being and immortal and then being dead for 3 days? Can you imagine what 3 days feels like when you are outside of time? Can you imagine being forsaken by your father who has until this moment loved you perfectly?
the sacrifice was not in the dying, that was only temporary, the sacrifice was in the taking on of our sins and the even momentary disconnect with his father.
yeah he had to die, but that was trivial compared to what he went through in those 3 days he was dead
@Atheist yes he is god himself. However he gave up parts of that to become human, he received them again when he ascended back into heaven, but there was a measure of separation in being a human being. This was further exacerbated by his death etc.
2 hours later…
4:36 PM
hey @atheist, thanks for ruining my evening, I just watched your video about Evidentialist Foundationalism and now I must watch the others too ;)
5:03 PM
5:15 PM
@Atheist yeah I definitely see the point. Its why I don't believe Pascal's wager works for modern religion
@Atheist basically I am sure because I believe Christianity is different from all other religions. Something in the sermon that I heard yesterday is actually relevant here.
ok, you know the pharasees? the religious leaders of the Jews who were basically all about keeping the law fully?
@Atheist basically they took their goodness so far that they actually missed the boat. They were too good (or perhaps too moral) for Christ
however Matthew, Zachheus (both tax collectors), prostitutes, fishermen. folks who knew they were bad were open and accepting of Christs' teachings
@Atheist the problem was that they 1. didn't see that they were sinful 2. sought to be saved by keeping the law. The point Jesus was making when he talked about more restrictive laws (like in the sermon on the mount) was that the law was unkeepable
@Atheist God's law is unkeepable. As in no one can ever be good enough to follow God's law completely. That's why we needed Christ in the first place. Right, but that doesn't mean it can be kept
@Atheist why did the Hebrews make sacrifices? Some of them were for atonement because they couldn't keep the law then.
Many of God's laws have been fulfilled, many of them are civil laws, and many of them are still applicable today
6:02 PM
@Atheist indeed it is. and it certainly is the most appealing aspect. Its actually one of the major reasons Chrisitanity is different than other religions
@Atheist by fulfilled I mean completed. If you believe that the Old Testament was part one of a two part story then some of the plot lines that were started in the first part have been tied up, we are done with them. For instance I (although others disagree) believe that God is done with Isreal as a nation, -> all of the civil laws of Israel are fulfilled. All of the ceremonial laws (the sacrifices, kosher laws, etc) were pointing to Christ he came, they are fulfilled.
@Atheist let me be very clear here, because I think Christians start talking about Grace and muddy the waters. We do not reject personal responsibility, either temporal or eternal. Yes Christians will go to heaven, but that doesn't mean they aren't responsible for what they do here, particularly here on earth. The Bible also seems to fairly clearly state that there is some kind of pecking order in Heaven as well.
@Atheist who knows. Here are some things we know. 1. we won't be in heaven forever, God is going to destroy/cleanse the earth and remake it and we will return to the earth. 2. we are going to worship God a lot.
I'd imagine that our lives will look at lot like Adam and Eve's pre-fall. We will probably have some kind of job and I'm certain we will have plenty of recreation, we will spend a lot of time eating and drinking and being merry.
@Atheist based on whats been said in revelation it sounds lavish, but honestly no its not well defined, just that its way better than the alternative :)
@Atheist lol none of that is inherently sinful. Drugs are sinful right now because the laws of the land prohibit them. But sex (inside marriage) and booze are certainly not prohibited.
and this would not be like church at all. Its the fulfillment of church (there is that word again...). Sure church is pointing to what things will be like in heaven, but worship takes many forms.
@Atheist oh the context issues there. But that isn't even my biggest issue. Issue one is attempting to impose human morals onto God.
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Oct '113
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Discussion of how a perfect God still…
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