last day (77 days later) » 

20:53
0
A: Is this passive sentence grammatically correct?

JankaDon't let man confuse you. Yes, man is a subject. But passive voice clauses can feature a subject. In fact, whatever is the accusative object in the active voice clause becomes the subject in the passive voice clause. Heute nehmen einen die Leute unter 200 PS gar nicht mehr ernst. Heute wird man...

I think you made it a little more confusing by adding a third element!
Which third element?
Heute wird man von einem unter 200 PS gar nicht mehr ernstgenommen. In this sentence there are 3 elements: 1) man 2) von einem (subject of passive or object of active) 3) unter 200 PS (what is this?!) second subject or object?
Please start with the first example. I marked the accusative object of the active sentence bold. It becomes the subject of the passive sentence, also marked bold. Likewise, I marked the subject of the active sentence. It becomes an adverbial in the passive sentence.…
Unter 200 PS refers to cars that have less than 200 horsepower. This phrase should be the subject of passive.
20:53
In the second example, I replaced the subject die Leute with the subject einer, and fixed the conjugation. That produced the adverbial von einem that you had missed in your question. …
In the third example, I replaced the subject einer with the subject man. That requires a small fix with the word order in the active sentence. The passive sentence stays the same.
Die Leute unter 200 PS is not meaningful.
Let me give you the whole context.
Damals wo ein Golf mit 150 PS noch ein GTI war. Heute wird man unter 200 PS garnicht mehr ernst genommen. Weil die Autos so groß und schwer geworden sind.
die Leute is the subject, unter 200 PS is an adverbial. Those are two separate items in this clause.
We want to say:
Today cars under 200 hp are not taken seriously by people anymore. So, we just need von einem (by people) and unter 200 hp (cars). But there is also a man.
Yes, I understood that from context.
That man in the passive voice sentence corresponds with einen in the active voice sentence.
And that man in the active voice sentence corresponds eith von einem in the passive voice sentence.
If you don't have a von einem in the passive voice sentence, that just means you have dropped it. It's an adverbial. It's not mandatory.
*Today cars under 200 hp are not taken seriously by people anymore.*
*Heutige Autos unter 200 PS werden von den Leuten gar nicht mehr ernst genommen.*
In that example, heutige Autos unter 200 PS is the subject.
As far as I know and have studied so far: The object in active voice is always the subject in passive form and it is always in nominative form except when the object is in dative form (in active form) and it also remains in dative form as the subject of passive.
21:08
Yes. That's correct. That's why I suspected that man confuses you.
You learned man becomes von einem.
What you don't realize is that einen becomes man in the same process.
Yes, man is always man as long as it is in nominative form. In accusative and dative it becomes einen and einem.
Heutige Autos unter 200 PS werden von den Leuten gar nicht mehr ernst genommen. This makes perfect sense to me.
Yes. But it's not what your original sentence says.
It says Heute wird man unter 200 PS gar nicht mehr ernstgenommen.
Maybe I don't get the meaning of the original sentence correcly.
Man is the subject of that sentence. And that means, in active voice it was einen.
Nowadays, one isn't taken seriously any more below 200 HP.
That one is man.
The original sentence is written in a way that it seems man is the accusative object in a passive sentence which is impossible.
It looks as if man is not taken seriously and not the cars.
21:13
NO. Man is the subject in the passive sentence. Man is always nominative case. It can't be an object.
Take this sentence as an example:
Die Dörfer wurden von den Soldaten zerstört.
Yes. The active voice for that is Die Soldaten zerstörten die Dörfer.
Exactly.
Die Dörfer = subject in passive (nominative)D
Is die Dörfer here the equivalent of man in the original sentence?
Yes.
And von den Soldaten = von einem?
21:20
Yes. But there is no von … in your original example. It has been dropped.
If yes, then what is the equivalent of cars in the village-soldier sentence?
How has it been dropped?
There is no cars in your original example.
*Heute wird **man** unter 200 PS gar nicht mehr ernstgenommen.*
*Nowadays, **one** isn't taken seriously any more below 200 HP.*
No cars.
Man or one is the driver of the car.
Other drivers don't take you seriously.
Now it starts making sense!
You mean unter 200 hp is a modifier for man.
*Heute nimmt man **einen** unter 200 PS gar nicht mehr ernst.*
*Nowadays, people don't take **you** seriously below 200 PS.*
man mit under 200 PS Autos
21:23
No, it isn't.
That unter 200 PS means if you drive a car below 200 HP.
It's an adverbial of circumstance.
Adverbial of what? Manner?
Circumstance.
As in at the mental asylum.
Heute wird man in der Klapsmühle gar nicht mehr ernstgenommen.
Nowadays, one isn't taken seriously any more at the nuthouse.
Ok. So my analysis is: Man = villages, soldiers are omitted
Yes. That's why I introduced die Leute in my first example.
Man is used when the writer wants to hide von ..... element.
21:28
No.
No no no. You understand that wrong.
Die Dorfer wurden zerstort.
You can always drop the von … part.
You don't have to name the subject of the active sentence at all in the passive sentence.
That man in the passive sentence appears because the accusative object of the active sentence was einen.
Heute nehmen einen die Leute unter 200 PS gar nicht mehr ernst.
The above sentence is in fact wrong but you wrote it that way to enlighten me. Right?
Heute wird man (von den Leuten) unter 200 PS gar nicht mehr ernstgenommen.
No. That sentence is correct.
Oh sorry!
That is active
Nehmen
21:32
I wanted to show you again how einen becomes man.
I wanted to say we never have einen (accusative form) as the subject in a passive voice.
Of course not. Einen is accusative so it cannot be a subject.
Don't let word oder fool you in German.
Ok. I'm so sorry to disturb you like this! I really didn't want to take your time this long.
It's okay.
Yes, word order is the ONLY problem in German.
People often complain about cases and declensions but they are easy to handle.
The only thing that is not taught well in any book is the order.
21:36
When reading, you have to pick up all clues on case and only if this doesn't help, you can rely on word order.
It seems as if a sentence can be rephrased in many different ways by anyone.
Another thing that confuses me is the mistakes that are committed by native speakers.
This sentence was in fact a Youtube comment.
There are so many mistakes in comments that I think I should stop reading them to improve my German!
There is a default word order in German but that only means this word order has no special emphasis. And there are also certain verbs, pronouns, and phrasings that call for a slightly different default order.
Yes. For example: Morgen, fahren wir nach Berlin.
Yes, don't try to learn from Youtube comments. They are written at a whim and they have tons of mistakes.
Emphasis is on time
21:40
Morgen fahren wir nach Berlin. No comma in German.
You only need a comma if the thing in front is a full clause.
Should I only read books? I thought if I only read books, I will never understand informal German!
Read comics.
Comic books in German?
Yes. There are tons of Franco-Belgian and French comics with excellent German translations, tons of Manga with excellent German translations, and the translations of Disney comics are legendary.
How do Germans memorize millions of idioms? That's interesting.
I read somewhere that there are around 25 million idioms in the language.
21:45
The main advantage of comics is that the characters speak "street". It resembles normal everyday talk.
What is an idiom in that figure?
And where was that stated?
What figure?
Those 25 million.
I'm trying to find the source
That claim is pretty hilarious, that's why I ask.
Even if one learns 10 idioms per day = 3650 per year
Yes, seems so
21:48
I think most educated people have an active Wortschatz of 10,000–20,000 terms in their native language.
Only seasoned authors go above that.
It was also written that even when German people talk in English, they tend to translate German idioms into English literally which confuses English people!
For example they say you have tomato in your eyes or something like that!!
Yes, that's very true.
German and English are so similar that you can do that sometimes.
But only sometimes.
Happens to me with verbs from time to time.
But the sad thing is that even Germans themselves confessed to me that many German people have only an average understanding of German and they have seen many foreigners that speak better German than natives!!
For example "from time to time" is "von Zeit zu Zeit" in German. It's a 100% cognate.
Yes, I have also seen other examples:
Versteh mich nicht falsch (don't get me wrong)
21:54
Ahh, no. Those people are exaggerating.
Those people who told me that were native speakers of German.
They are exaggerating.
They wanted to say some foreigners are better than some natives in German knowledge.
Or what they mean is that foreigners know Standard German while many native speakers use their dialect. Most dialects have their own grammar rules which are slightly different from Standard German.
For example, genitive case is not used in most dialects.
I found the discussion here:
Is Hochdeutsch the standard German?
High German!
22:01
Hochdeutsch is a synonym for Standard German, yes. That is because Niederdeutsch is a different language that was commonly spoken in the northern flatlands (hence "Nieder"), and that language did not become the standard.
Genitive is mostly used in formal or written texts and less commonly in spoken language.
Norddeutschland
Im Norden
Yes. It's uncommon in spoken language because most dialects never adopted it.
Yes, and yes.
Because it causes confusion
Dative is more easily understandable by ears
Those people in the quora discussion say it's mangelnde Sorgfalt mostly, and they are right.
People could write better if they would put more effort into proofreading what they wrote.
Das ist das Auto meines Bruders
Das ist das Auto von meinem Bruder.
The last one is more clear to ears.
22:05
And much more common in speech.
Sometimes I find some spelling errors in native people that surprises them!
A few days ago, a native German was correcting a mistake in my German text.
But this does **not** apply to genitive attributes.
For example *Das ist der Kern des Problems.* is much more common than *Das ist der Kern von dem Problem.*
He wanted to say formuliert but said vormuliert!
The latter phrasing sounds very uneducated.
AUTSCH!
"vormuliert".
I asked him if it was a typo (Tippfehler) and he said: to be honest it was not a typo!!
He said when he didn't use some words, he would forgot their correct spellings!
22:08
To be honest, many people have problems telling v and f apart. Especially with words from Latin origin, they often assume v when it should be f.
Maybe because v is pronounce like f in German.
Only for German origin words.
Some Grammar books also tell some lies which confuse the learners.
Which lies?
For example they say: Verb is always preceded by subject if the sentence is started with anything but the subject. When they use the word always, it means there is no exception to the rule but there is!
For example:
I have seen Aber (but) doesn't affect word order
Aber Sie haben
Not
Aber haben Sie
Even when the sentence is started with Aber
22:12
Aber is a connector. It doesn't occupy a position in the sentence.
Same with und and oder and some more connectors.
Denn, doch, …
But they didn't mention this in their lessons which confused me for a while
I find this "rule" above too complicated to begin with.
Do you know my super simple German word order rule?
Aren't you a native?
I thought you are a German native!
No, I don't know your rule.
Yes, I'm a native speaker.
But I often help people with learning German, so I have my own word order rule. Among other things.
You said I find it complicated! I thought you are not a native!
22:17
2
A: Order of dative and accusative objects in a sentence

Janka Ich muss ein Taxi zum Stadion nehmen. This isn't an accusative object followed by a dative object, but a noun accusative object followed by a directional adverbial. You may also see zum Stadion as a complement describing ein Taxi more in detail. Compare last train to London or highway to hell. ...

Yes, I have read this post of yours before!
My humble rule is:
TMP!
That's good. So you understood that this rule from your grammar book is needlessly complicated.
Adverbials of Time + Manner + Place
TMP
That doesn't cover adverbials of direction.
Nor the order of pronoun accusative object vs accusative object
Yes, and many other elements in the sentence
Memorizing your 13 elements can help further to write correct sentences
Sich and nicht are usually placed in wrong places
22:22
topic, V2, subject, pronoun accusative obj, dative object, time, cause, manner, place, noun accusative object, prepositional object, direction, verbs, comparison or adverbial
sich goes at the pronoun accusative object or dative object position.
I should try to make some abbreviations to memorize your rule better and easier
And nicht goes in front of the item it negates.
A German woman told me that German language has changed a lot since her childhood. This made me frustrated. I thought by learning German today I will not be able to understand old German texts which is very important to me.
But you have to remember that the V2 verb isn't in second position when you place nicht or adverbs that modify the verbs. It's still at that position near the end of the clause at that point.
Ahh, no. You can understand German texts from 1700 just fine.
I have tons and loads of German magazines (car magazines from 1932!)
22:27
They used a lot of odd vocabulary from French back then that fell out of fashion when Napoleon waged war against Germany.
To make sure I did something funny
I tried to read some quotes from Hitler!
To my surprise, I could understand some of his quotes!!!
I didn't think I could!
Those quotes are from 1944 - 1945
So, they are old enough to reflect the changes (if any)
His official speeches are excellent as they were written by professional authors. Gems of propaganda. What he devised himself is scatterbrained at best.
So, do you mean he would commit grammatical errors if he had written them himself?
It's not so much grammatical errors but ramblings without sense.
The most common term used in German car magazines is:
Sich bewegen
to move
Probably they use it to say a car moves itself better or worse than others
I'm not sure
22:33
No, sich bewegen means that something moves rather than it is being moved.
It is a reflexive verb
etwas bewegen — to move something
jemanden bewegen — to move someone
sich bewegen — to move
I have a feeling that Germans are much affected by English
The accusative object is mandatory for bewegen. That's why there is a sich. Most German verbs are like that. There are only a very few intransitive verbs in German.
They adopt many English phrases in German
22:35
They become fashionable, then fade away.
For example, 20 years ago everyone knew what in and out meant.
In that particular context, it meant more likely to move itself!
Nowadays, Germans don't use those English terms any more and I bet in 20 years people don't understand them anymore either.
As if the writer wanted to say this car can move itself (accelerate) better than its rivals
@Janka Der Ding ist = The thing is
No, Der Wagen bewegt sich. simply means The car moves.
If wasn't as simple as that
It was a long complicated sentence
@Janka Yes, this makes to move
22:38
You can't drop the accusative object for bewegen. It's mandatory transitive in German.
I'm so extremely interested in German cars that I decided to learn German just to read German magazines and technical articles about cars!
That's why a simple bewegen gets the sich.
If I find the sentence, I will post it here
That's a very common use of sich and it makes you wonder how many reflexive verbs there are in German when they are actually only mandatory transitive.
There are some articles that mention 100 reflexive verbs that are the most common
Do you have a Youtube channel to teach German?
You could be an excellent teacher
You have a great tendency to help learners
22:43
No. I helped some people who were in huge need of learning German a few years ago.
And so I tried to educate myself as a tutor.
You mean you improved your own German to help others?
I improved my knowledge on German grammar mostly.
And on the grammar of other languages so I could understand what makes people go mad on German.
Word order was on top. But that is mostly because it is taught so poorly in official lessons.
I believe those who already know English well, can learn German much easier.
That for sure.
I learned German against English.
Not against my mother's language
22:47
But that's an Indian language, isn't it?
English?
Or German?
Your native language.
Or Persian?
Yes, my native language is Persian but I don't know if it is Indian or not.
Persian is a language of love and poetry.
It is famous for that.
It's all the same group. Most Indian languages, Germanic languages, Romance languages, Slavic languages, Persian.
Yes, I know that saying.
I don't know much about languages. Learning everyday Persian is not that hard (I think)
22:51
Some guy I tutored was from Iran.
But learning and understanding old Persian poems is even more complicated than German grammar.
I figure.
@Janka Really? What was his level?
Somewhat B2.
I have an Austrian friend named Daniel.
We have been friends for 12 years now!
22:52
Oh, nice.
But he doesn't have the mood to speak German with me!
He always speak in English!
I thought he is not interested in improving my German!
But he is a great guy! He sent me some magazines from Österreich!
I also found a woman (A German doctor) in Quora
Oh.
Das ist dann doch ungewöhnlich.
She is also so nice. She told me that she is always available if I have any questions but she is most of the time in vacation with his Wohnmobil!!
Heutzutage kann man ja auch im Wohnmobil Internet haben.
@Janka Warum?
22:56
Weil man bei Quora ja eher selten Leute kennenlernt.
@Janka Nur ein paar Kommentare!
Ich habe auch einen 70-jährige Mann in Quora kennengelernt!
Rentner haben halt viel Zeit.
Er hat mir gesagt, dass er meine Fragen antworten will.
beantworten
oder antworten auf + Akk
Ja, ich vergass es!
23:02
Und Perfekt verwenden: *Ich hab es vergessen.*
Aber noch besser: *Hab es vergessen.*
Beide sind möglich, nicht?
So ein einleitendes Ich, es, das lässt man beim Sprechen oft weg.
Nein, immer Perfekt verwenden. Präteritum nur für die Hilfsverben, die Modalverben, und für Erzählungen.
Ich verwende die (haben .....) form mehr als die (vergass) form.
Ich war im Kino. ← Norddeutsch
Ich bin im Kino gewesen. ← Süddeutsch
Ich bin im Kino gsi. ← Schweizerisch
Ich habe gesagt >>> Ich sagte
gsi??
Was steht das auf?
23:07
Ja. Das ist Schweizerisch für gesein. Eine alte Verbform von gewesen.
Sogar heute sagen sie das?
Ja. Die meisten Deutschen kennen dieses Wort auch nicht. Das wichtigste Schweizerdeutsche Wort.
Was bedeutet (auch noch)?
gleichzeitig?
Nein, es bedeutet zusätzlich.
Ich war im Kino. Und dann war ich da auch noch futtern.
Anderes ähnliches Wort
Dazu
23:18
Ja, das ist sehr ähnlich.

Ich habe einen Burger gegessen, und auch noch Pommes.
Ich habe einen Burger gegessen, und dazu Pommes.
Die Variante mit *auch noch* sagt deutlicher, dass es nicht üblich ist.
Aber "dazu" kann viele verschiedene Bedeutungen haben.
Ja, es gibt auch noch andere Bedeutungen von dazu.
Ich bin nicht dazu gekommen, etwas zu trinken.
zu etwas kommen — die Zeit haben, etwas zu tun
dazu kommen — die Zeit haben, eine bestimmte Sache zu tun
Dazu kann auch bedeuten (gleichzeitig)
Dafür fiele mir kein Beispiel ein.
23:25
Kennst du tatsächlich die Konjunktiv-II-Form von einfallen?
Ich habe manche Beispiele gelesen.
ich fiele ein
du fielest ein
er fiele ein
Konjunktiv-II
Ohne das Verb genau zu kennen, kann man das eigentlich nicht erraten.
Das ist so eine von diesen Formen, die die meisten Muttersprachler nicht benutzen.
Fallen ist ein starkes Verb.
du fällst
er fällt
Ja, aber die Konjunktivformen werden ohnehin selten verwendet, und die mit i und e-Ablaut merken sich die meisten Leute nicht.
du fielst
er fiel
23:33
Aber mir fällt tatsächlich kein Beispiel ein, in dem dazu im zeitlichen Sinne verwendet wird.
Ich sehe die Konjunktivformen in sozialen Medien.
Tatsächlich?!
Ja!!!
Zum Beispiel:
Konjunktiv II
Ich ginge
Er meinte, es ginge. So etwas?
Wahrscheinlich!
23:38
Das ist gehen im Sinne von funktionieren, klappen, richtig sein.
Dieses es ginge oder das ginge ist so ein feststehender Ausdruck.
Die meisten Leute wissen gar nicht, dass das Konjunktiv II ist, glaube ich.
Ich verwende die Konjunktivformen, wenn ich sagen will:
would
I would say
Ich würde sagen
I would read
Ich läse
Im Prinzip schon, aber ich läse klingt zu ähnlich zu ich lese, und deshalb sagen die meisten Leute auch da ich würde lesen.
Ja, es ist mir einmal passiert!
Ich habe geschrieben:
Ich dachte, dass ich Kommentare und Beiträge läse, um mein Deutsch zu verbessern.
Ein Deutscher hat mir gesagt:
Nur in der 5. Reihe heißt es "lese" statt "läse"
Und dann ein anderer Deutscher:
läse = Konjunktiv II > zwar ungewöhnlich, aber durchaus möglich und korrekt.
Stimmt. Von da hinten sehen die Kritzeleien auf der Tafel wie Kommentare und Beiträge aus.
Da gehört kein Konjunktiv II hin. Es sei denn, du zweifelst an, dass das Kommentare und Beiträge sind.
Ich dachte, dass ich Fußball sähe, es ist aber Hockey.
23:55
Eine andere Form, die sehr kaum verwendet hat:
Futur II
Um ehrlich zu sein, ich habe niemals gesehen, dass die Deutschen diese Form wirklich verwenden!
Ich werde gesagt haben
Er wird gefahren haben

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