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12:00 AM
@MichaelMyers Yeah...actually... Nobody ever shooting anybody isn't a bad plan.... If you could trust the others, anyway.
@KendallFrey That would be a very interesting question!! You should post it
 
It would probably have have some dumb simple answer
The only strategy I can think of is never shooting someone who misses.
 
@WendiKidd what, post an original puzzle? Given the questions so far, that would go against the grain
 
@Gilles Yeah.... I feel like people are trying to just "get rid of" all the basic puzzles in private beta, but... I'm not sure I see the point in that. We've made our point by now that they're acceptable questions. Now how about we wait until someone who's actually curious about it comes along and asks later?
I mean, I'm not saying people can't post them. They have the right to (as well as self-answering, even though some people are knocking that). I just think it'd be more fun to hold off for now since we already have plenty.
 
@WendiKidd I'm more and more leaning towards thinking people shouldn't post them (as in, we should have a site policy that these questions are off-topic)
let people ask about methods to solve puzzles, but not “here's a puzzle, what's the solution?”
 
12:45 AM
@Gilles I dunno. I like the actual puzzle ones (especially if there's more than one answer). I think it's interesting to try and figure them out. It's sort of like code golf with specific challenges. I think that's the interesting part (not for everyone, but it is for me)
 
1:03 AM
Will anyone be offended by the flagrant amount of racial stereotypes found in my puzzle? puzzling.stackexchange.com/questions/302/…
 
@IQAndreas this is a test question for duplicate closing, right?
hmm, is it? Do we have a suitable version of that puzzle already?
 
@Gilles It seems a whole lot like the Mexican Standoff question, except that one has a player at 100%
2
A: The Mexican Standoff

WendiKiddIf Juan gets a chance to shoot, he will shoot Jose (because Jose has a higher chance of killing him) and he will kill Jose because he has 100% accuracy. Jose knows this, and he gets a chance to shoot first, so he will shoot at Juan. There is a 70% chance that he will manage to kill Juan if he ge...

 
@WendiKidd I think the 100% makes it different enough
 
hmm okay
 
it simplifies the reasoning: at the end of the first round, Juan always kills someone. The 90% version requires more analysis
There, I've exposed my anti-puzzle-dump view on meta
And I suggested that we extend the private beta to deal with this problem
I should make a separate meta post
 
1:13 AM
@Gilles Well, unless someone kills Juan first (see my answer). And yeah, I saw your answer to the chestnut meta Q
I agree with your "homework Q" analogy
[puzzle] is not a question. [puzzle] [interesting question/point/addition to/attempt to solve puzzle] is an interesting question.
 
@IQAndreas Without reading the question: if you have to ask, it's probably best to chose a different way to phrase the puzzle.
 
I have read the question, and I don't think it would take anything away from it to rephrase it to remove the stereotypes, so I'm going to do that.
 
@WendiKidd while you're at it, make it link to the other question and point out the difference
 
@WendiKidd No, the mexican standoff is one at a time. This is everyone firing at once per round. For such a simple little change, the resulting payoffs are very different!
 
0
Q: Are we ready for public beta?

GillesWe are slated to go into public beta in about 19 hours as I write. Are we ready for it? I am concerned that the site is full of chestnuts — solutions to classic puzzles that are already all over the web. This makes a significant part of the site rather boring, which doesn't bode well for the sit...

@IQAndreas Oh, I hadn't noticed that. Shows that it's really better to explicitly point out where your question differs with the classic!
 
1:26 AM
@Gilles Good idea, I'll edit that information in.
@WendiKidd I like my stereotypes; I find them to be very accurate. How offensive are they really?
 
@IQAndreas no more than calling a “Mexican standoff” Mexican
 
The question has been edited to clarify the difference from the traditional Mexican Standoff problem. (In case anyone would like to revert their downvotes)
 
1
Q: Are we ready for public beta?

GillesWe are slated to go into public beta in about 19 hours as I write. Are we ready for it? I am concerned that the site is full of chestnuts — solutions to classic puzzles that are already all over the web. This makes a significant part of the site rather boring, which doesn't bode well for the sit...

 
1:45 AM
@WendiKidd Now you're moving into prisoners' dilemma territory
 
@IQAndreas I missed that too! I've retracted my close vote. I think it's safest to leave out the stereotypes, but if you wanted to raise a meta question asking about such things I'd be interested to hear the community's thoughts. I think some were more okay than others.
 
2:34 AM
@JonEricson Are you going to enable Mathjax? The list is growing
 
^
 
Given that I seem to be all about math posts, I'd like to know whether to continue typing mathjax blindly, or switch to text-only
 
@Gilles I want this if for no other reason that I keep skipping posts that have it included because it burns my eyes to try and read them the way they display now
 
@WendiKidd I'm sure there's a userscript for that
 
probably
 
2:37 AM
@Gilles Probably not worth it until it's clear we're going public
 
A a point of information, we have delayed the public beta for at least a week. Several of us on the team have similar concerns similar to what you've expressed here (and elsewhere). The first few days have gone very well and we aren't planning on shutting the site down. But we do want to get the scope hammered out before exposing the community to the larger public. — Jon Ericson ♦ 1 hour ago
and even if we weren't going public, it's just a config file to change. Our actions in private beta shape the site, and the set of available formatting tools are part of the shape
 
 
1 hour later…
3:46 AM
1
A: We should have MathJax. What should the escape sequence be?

Jon EricsonRiddle me this: $$ \begin{array}{l|l|l} \text{Site} & \text{Puzzling} & \TeX - \LaTeX \\ \hline \text{MathJax} & \text{True} & \text{False} \\ \end{array} $$

No immediate plans to make implement TeX in chat, by the way:
72
Q: Should chat have TeX support?

Marc GravellOK, so chat is now available... but; it has been suggested that for Mathematics we should have TeX support. The current TeX processing has some non-trivial client impact. Before I even attempt trying to hack this in, is this something that the community would want / use? (this would only apply ...

 
@JonEricson thank you! Why didn't you enable math in chat, by the way? It seemed to be technically possible (since Marc offered it) and had popular support
 
@Gilles We recently discussed it and the developer time (now) seems better spent on other projects.
(Probably if Marc had just done it at the time, it would have been less effort. Now we need to get someone up to speed on that particular bit of code.)
 
4:33 AM
I love the favicon, I didn't notice it until now.
 
 
4 hours later…
8:48 AM
Gilles has made a change to the feeds posted into this room
 
 
3 hours later…
12:07 PM
Doorknob has made a change to the feeds posted into this room
 
12:49 PM
If you feed the room too much, it's going to get fat.
 
Doorknob has made a change to the exercise done by this room
 
 
1 hour later…
2:04 PM
@Gilles are you here
 
2:56 PM
@JonEricson I just posted a really long reply to the public beta question
 
3:27 PM
AJ Henderson has made a change to the feeds posted into this room
 
changed the question feed to be pop-ups to avoid the level of chat spam
 
 
2 hours later…
SQB
5:25 PM
MathJax doesn't render for me. Is anything wrong? It worked earlier today.
Was it turned off again?
Or is it because I'm browsing in private?
/me has a lightbulb moment - brb.
 
Works for me.... :(
 
SQB
Math.SE works fine for me, but ??.SE doesn't.
 
For me, it works sometimes and sometimes not, probably because the wrong prefix is used in the answer.
 
@SQB Sorry. I We changed the delimiter to \$.
If you see a post where it isn't working, let me know.
@durron597 I've read that and I'm not sure I can boil down your concerns into something we can change/recommend. In particular, the top Mexican Standoff answer seems to be exactly what this site needs.
 
SQB
5:53 PM
@JonEricson That explains things.
I'll fix it. I did a rather MathJax-heavy answer on
8
Q: Pirates and gold coins

Ross MillikanA group of N pirates has come by a chest containing 200 gold coins. Their rules require that the coins be distributed by the following approach. The pirates are ranked from fiercest to meekest and all pirates know the ranking. The fiercest must propose a division, which is put to majority vote...

2
A: Guessing Colours Hats

SQBWith three children, three red hats and two black hats, there are 7 different configurations possible: $\begin{array}{cccl} \text{Alice} & \text{Bob} & \text{Carol} \\ \\ \hline \text{red} & \text{red} & \fbox{red} & \text{(1)} \\ \text{black} & \text{red} & \fbox{red} & \text{(2)} \\ ...

Here, MathJax shows the bare $s but renders the array perfectly.
Forgiving, it is.
 
@SQB I tend to prefer $$ as delimiters anyway since they center tables and equations in a pleasing way.
 
SQB
Yeah, used that one now. Or rather, \$\$...
@JonEricson Is that correct? Because it doesn't work here:
5
A: How long does it take for the snail to get out of the well?

SQBThe snail climbs at a net pace of a foot per 24 hours, so the naive answer would be 30 days. However, after 27 days, it finds itself at 3 feet from the top. After having crawled the remaining 3 feet on the next day, it's already out of the well and no longer slips down! The general formula is \...

 
@SQB Fixed. ;-)
 
SQB
@JonEricson Thanks. So it's \$ or $$?
 
@SQB \$ for inline, $$ for block
 
SQB
6:07 PM
's What I mean.
Had replaced it on the hats question by \$\$ and it rendered fine.
 
@SQB In that case, the inline version probably works better.
 
SQB
Must be due to MathJax's forgiveness.
 
@JonEricson Why? That means we have to edit a whole bunch of posts, because everyone who assumed we'd get mathjax used $, and it's different from the rest of the network (except one unrelated site IIRC).
 
SQB
/me guesses to allow bare $s in the posts for people who don't know (about) MathJax.
 
@SQB Pretty much.
 
6:13 PM
@JonEricson so? They'll see it in the preview
It's no worse than people using _ or * and coming out with italics
 
SQB
I'm a big fan of the principle of least astonishment.
 
@Gilles Really? Your guess of what will surprise people is radically different than mine.
2
 
SQB
So yeah, \$ is probably better, although
a) It should've been that from the start
b) It should be advertised better (both "we have MathJax" and "this is how you use it")
c) Couldn't it have been fixed by a single search and replace in the database?
Doesn't too many edits make a post community? (As a reason for c).
 
@SQB it no longer does
 
SQB
That's a good thing.
 
6:18 PM
Grace Note on April 22, 2014

Ever seen this diagram?

That’s the visual elevator pitch for Stack Exchange. We were the little dot in the middle, a potent mix of useful traits from other tools, a wiry mutt full of hybrid vigor. The purpose of this blend was to allow and encourage the construction of a library of solutions, by providing communities with the tools they needed to share their experiences and challenges with others who might struggle with the same issues.

The diagram illustrated where we stole drew inspiration for the design of those tools, and their influence occasionally shows up in the results. Sometimes, …

 
I disagree with \$ though. It violates the principle of least surprise for anybody who's used related Stack Exchange sites, in particular Mathematics
We'll probably end up having migrations with Mathematics somewhere down the line, too
 
SQB
@JonEricson Thanks.
 
@Gilles Migrations require edits in nearly every case anyway.
 
SQB
@Gilles That's a good point. Having the same delimiter would facilitate that.
 
@JonEricson retags. Not edits to answers or usually even to question bodies.
 
6:21 PM
@AJHenderson We purposely made them not popups because they were making everyone crazy actually... Maybe we should vote on meta
 
@Gilles You have radically different experience of migrations, then, too. ;-)
 
@JonEricson if a migration requires extensive edits to answers, it probably shouldn't have been done
I have quite a bit of experience of migrations, and the only common case where I can see a need to edit answers is when something is migrated from a non-mathjax site to a mathjax site, e.g. Stack Overflow to Computer Science or Information Security to Cryptography
why artificially create another?
 
SQB
@Gilles Don't you mean from MathJax to non-MathJax?
 
@SQB no: if there are answers with mathjax, it's usually a sign that the question would be off-topic a non-mathjax site
I'm refering to cases when there are answers that would benefit from mathjax, but did not use it because it wasn't available on the original site
 
SQB
@Gilles You have a point, although I tend to use MathJax (if available, natch) even for 2^n.
Just because it looks nice.
 
6:26 PM
@Gilles Apropos of nothing in particular, I recently stopped adding two spaces after a period. ;-)
 
SQB
@JonEricson Congratulations! Welcome to the modern age!
I've heard that it's easier than quitting heroin, but harder than quitting smoking. Is that true?
:)
 
@JonEricson Traitor
 
@WendiKidd personally, I'd argue against having the question feed posted in chat
@JonEricson I still put two spaces after a period and intend to continue. :)
 
@AJHenderson We thought it'd be good for now, as we're in private beta and have low Q volume, and can @ reply to questions to discuss them (and have a link back). Honestly I'd rather not have a feed at all than have the dismissy box thing; I think we all agreed (of us who were there at the time) that the feed box is evil
 
6:36 PM
well I put it back for now
 
Mod wars!
 
No owners yet?
 
Cool. Maybe we should bring it up on meta and see what everyone wants overall. If I'm outvoted that's fine ;)
 
Ugh I am so frustrated that I never know when things are appropriate or on topic
0
Q: How to deal with conjugate-pair pseudocycles when solving Sudoku

Brian J. FinkIn single-solution regular Sudoku puzzles, sometimes you may encounter a combination of possible cell solutions such as: {2,7} in A1 and A7 (same row) {2,7} in A7 and B8 (same box) {2,7} in B8 and E8 (same column) {2,3,5,7} in E1 (same column as A1 and same row as E8) I call patterns like the...

 
Well, as it looks now, @WendiKidd will get appointed as room owner automatically XD
 
6:37 PM
@WendiKidd It always feels weird discussing something like that on meta since a lot of people on meta never use chat and vice versa
though right now it is probably safe to say there is probably a distinct corrolation
 
There has been a lot of disagreement about many of the things i've posted or chosen to downvote (or upvote) and we never seem to resolve anything about what the policies are
i have a 10 upvote question and a closed & downvoted question also and the ONLY difference as far as i can tell is that people know what a sudoku is and they think the former question is clever
 
@durron597 welcome to early beta :)
 
there are a lot of diamonds in this room... i don't mean to be rude but we need leadership
 
particularly private beta
while we are diamonds, we aren't necessarily ideal leaders for this community. Point of private beta is to figure out a lot of these kinds of problems as an early community
2
 
honestly i don't care if every one of my suggestions in meta (except for mathjax) gets overrided as long as the result is consistency
 
6:41 PM
it's a bit schizophrenic at first though until a standard and consensus emerges
 
Agreed with AJ. I think Jon's Chestnuts meta post is a good place to start looking for that consistency.
 
but the important threads in meta get ignored
 
@durron597 Can you link to an example? Best way to drum up discussion is to post it in chat and get us all talking about it :)
 
and if you do have something that is a particular concern that doesn't have a meta post and needs consistency, ask it on meta :)
 
ignored is hyperbole
err
18
Q: Is it on-topic to present specific logic puzzles or brainteasers as questions?

JaydlesThis Area 51 discussion suggests that posting brainteasers as questions should be allowed. I think these could be one of the most, accessible, interesting possible posts to keep the community engaged. (We're here because we like puzzles, right?) Eventually, we'll probably need to think as a gro...

 
6:43 PM
all having a diamond really means is that we are know some other site's consensus well, know how SE generally works and know about that subject of the site we mod on well enough to see if things meet the standards of the communities we moderate. We don't have a magical bag of answers for what the puzzling community will be (unfortunately)
 
I'm happy that question has 18 upvotes. that part is good.
 
@SQB Quitting heroin and smoking were far easier for me. (I've never been tempted to start. ;-)
 
But the highest voted answer has 7 votes... it's three lines and is not much of a consistent policy
My answer is the next highest voted answer... and it's not even an answer! It's just me begging for consistency
 
@SQB I just keep using two spaces because I've heard no good reason why using only one is better other than because a bunch of people wanted to justify their jobs
 
@durron597 I think Jon's Chestnuts discussion is the continuation of that thread
 
6:45 PM
Okay, I have a plan. Moment.
 
It addresses how to deal with specific puzzles to make them on topic and consistent
 
@WendiKidd That was the general idea. Jay's post is (or at least should be seen as) coming from a regular user. My post is a little more official.
 
@durron597 I added a comment on why the sudoku may have been downvoted. I wasn't involved in downvoting it, but it is why I would personally have down voted it probably
 
0
Q: What are the essential questions that we must answer before we can launch?

durron597Everyone, we really need to hunker down and come up with consistent guidelines for the content of this site. This post will be a container question for the substantial, site defining questions, and will eventually become a faq. Please do not answer this question; please go to the linked questions...

 
@AJHenderson I stopped because HTML (and TeX) eats them anyway.
 
6:50 PM
Can we turn that into community wiki? I can't for some reason
 
@durron597 I commented on one of your meta answers. I don't think deciding how people should distribute their checkmarks is important (or useful or enforceable) at all, and actually I did address one of the points you said was missing from the Mexican Standoff question.
 
@WendiKidd I'm coming from programming puzzles and code golf, where every question has to have scoring guidelines, and people know what they are. they are very strict about having well defined guidelines in the question there
it doesn't need to be a sitewide policy, but if we're going to allow people to post canonical puzzles with unique answers, i definitely do not think we should just let FGITW be the policy in advance
 
SQB
Is there any Sudoku / general grid plugin we can use?
 
0
Q: What are the essential questions that we must answer before we can launch?

durron597Everyone, we really need to hunker down and come up with consistent guidelines for the content of this site. This post will be a container question for the substantial, site defining questions, and will eventually become a faq. Please do not answer this question; please go to the linked questions...

 
7:06 PM
@JonEricson huh, I've never been able to quit heroin or smoking. Or beating my wife.
 
SQB
7:44 PM
@durron597 I didn't know if you wanted to go full MathJax on that hexagon.
 
8:17 PM
@durron597 Call me dumb, but what does FGITW stand for?
 
779
Q: Fastest Gun in the West Problem

Omer van KloetenI feel like there's a problem with Stack Overflow, as the number of people prowling it increases. Each question's answers are sorted by descending score and then by descending time of posting. This means that if a person sits down and answers a question in a long, thorough way, going through eve...

 
Ah, thanks Kendall
 
0
Q: Is the [solutions] tag useful?

GillesThere are currently 6 questions tagged solutions. Is this tag useful? The first requirement for a tag to be useful is for the community to agree on its meaning. I think I see what solutions means: it's used on questions about solving puzzles, as opposed to designing puzzles and other activities....

 
@Xynariz that
 
Tooting my own horn:
23
A: How big is the Fastest Gun in the West bias?

Jon EricsonI decided to look at all questions with exactly two non-negatively scored answers. The first answer is declared the fastest gun and the second answer's score is subtracted from the score of the first. Assuming there's no other systematic reason the first answer should be qualitatively better1, ...

 
SQB
8:24 PM
Do we need a ?
 
@SQB Ack! No!
 
SQB
Not all tags are to tag positive properties of a question.
 
@SQB that's like having on SO
a good idea at first, perhaps... but really, no, it's not.
 
> This may not be an accurate.
I think you accidentally a word
2
 
8:31 PM
@WendiKidd Thanks. I'm sure that answer perfect now. ;-)
 

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