Not a bar, but plays one on TV

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trogdor

6:03 AM

that is a good one

puppy spike has grown on me

especially if he looks like that XD

3 hours later…

SPArcheon

9:07 AM

@trogdor At least until you remember that the (quite detestable) dog in Tom & Jerry is also called Spike.

trogdor

you know I don't mean that one :P

SPArcheon

I know, it is just that the name reminds me the other one exist.

Would be an interesting question for @Besw though.

BESW

What question?

SPArcheon

Why back in the... 80'? there was a trend of making cartoons with very detestable characters

I mean, the Road Runner in Willie Coyote was quite neutral and most of the time not actively malevolent.

But then you had Tweety, Woody Woodpecker, Jerry and the list continues

BESW

Those are all characters from the early 40s.

SPArcheon

9:12 AM

Yep, you are right.

Still, the base question remains - any idea about what started that trend?

Carcer

wait

why is spike detestable

SPArcheon

Not the MLP Spike.

This Spike

And mostly depends on the episode.

Carcer

what's wrong with him

SPArcheon

In some he just don't want to be bothered. In some he is actively malevolent.

BESW

And as for why, well. It's not a cartoon thing. Those cartoons are following formulas from vaudeville (which in turn drew on art forms like commedia dell'arte). Because they're telling full stories in just a few minutes, they have a bunch of stock characters that are drawn very broadly and are familiar to the audience so that the audience doesn't need a lot of exposition.

This form of storytelling is made for nuanced characters: you know immediately who to root for, who to boo, and you can enjoy the spectacle of what the performers are bringing to this particular iteration of the familiar structure.

So despicable villain who is stronger than the clever hero who uses his wits to win? I mean, you're familiar with the story of David and Goliath, right?

SPArcheon

9:18 AM

@BESW yep but what seems odd is that in these show the "bad one" is the one who always wins.

In the end most of the times it is Jerry who actively seeks to annoy Tom. But it is the cat that gets most of the hurting.

BESW

That's the trickster motif combined with the underdog motif.

SPArcheon

It would seem that the constant iteration of that trend would end up annoying the viewer

Anyway, any idea if the thing was indeed more abused back then or it is just a sort of positive reinforcing in my mind?

BESW

Also note, you're talking about a specific cartoon studio and a handful of creative talent which enjoyed making tricksters and rogues their main characters. It's not an industry-wide phenomenon, it's a Warner Bros thing.

Warner Bros positioned themselves in opposition to Disney, and that shows in their narrative composition and characters.

SPArcheon

Could be a reason.

BESW

Or, go a couple decades ahead and look at The Muppets, where Jim Henson's default ending to a skit if he couldn't think of anything else was to have one character eat another.

SPArcheon

9:23 AM

Would also explain Pixie and Dixie - Hanna Barbera

BESW

Even Sesame Street's character interactions were filled with pranking, teasing, and mocking from characters who were ostensibly "nice."

See also: Punch and Judy.

So... yeah, it's a thing, but it's simultaneously a very common thing that's been going on for a very long time, and a thing that was latched onto by a specific company as a way to differentiate themselves as the mischievous foil to the sanitized "family friendly" competition.

trogdor

9:51 AM

I also feel like it's kinda not Spikes fault most of the time

I could be misremembering but I feel like most of the time he gets mad because he thinks tom like, purposely hit him in the head or woke him up or wtv

although admittedly he could have been a bit less,.. violent and retaliatory

but yeah basically I think the whole point was not needing to know the characters already to know the cat is trying to catch the mouse and the dog hates the cat and all that

SPArcheon

10:05 AM

@trogdor I know. It really depends on the short

In some episodes, he is triggered against Tom because he genuinely thinks Tom did him wrong. In some, he is even right.

Yet then you have episodes when he is a full bully who use physical harm against Tom and even Jerry for his own gain

See for example an episode where he beats up both the cat and the mouse to force them playing with his son

Those cartoons were weird...

SPArcheon

10:22 AM

And then - probably because few persons worked on them like BESW said, there was a constant plot reuse that contributed to making some cliche even more annoying

Take Silvester for example.

I would love to know how many different version of the same episode with the "mouse/kangaroo" switch do exist

always the same. The "ungrateful" son who ask for mouse hunting lessons, Silvester finds the mouse, mouse hides, Silvester follows it but finds the kangaroo instead and gets beat up, son is ashamed and goes looking for the mouse and finds the actual mouse.

Then Silvester return and finds the kangaroo. The son returns and finds the mouse....

rinse and repeat for the whole short

BESW

10:41 AM

[shrug] Repetition is not itself a problem. Repetition is actually really GOOD in a lot of cases. Sylvester was never in more than about ten cartoons a year, and they were originally designed for theatrical release rather than syndication; there was no expectation that people would see all of them, much less all of them in a row.

Variations on implementing the same story is the bread and butter of that kind of storytelling.

> Adam: Yeah, basically Shakespeare stole every comedy he ever wrote.
Austin: Oh, no, no. "Stole" is a little strong; "distilled", maybe.
Adam: Yeah, okay, well he "distilled" the three or four funniest comic gimmicks of his time and then he milked them into sixteen plays.
Reed: Yeah. You see, basically Shakespeare was a formula writer. Once he found a device that worked, he used it
Reed, Austin, Adam: Over and over and over again.
Reed: So, Mr. Shakespeare, the question we have is this...
Reed, Austin, Adam: Why did you write sixteen comedies when you could have written just one?

SPArcheon

11:22 AM

oh, found

Hippety Hopper

Hippety Hopper is a young kangaroo character in the Warner Bros. Looney Tunes series of cartoons. Robert McKimson introduced Hippety Hopper in Hop, Look and Listen (1948), which established the pattern for future Hippety Hopper cartoons. The character appeared in 14 theatrical cartoons between 1948 and 1964. == History == Hippety Hopper cartoons have a typical formula: Hopper escapes from a zoo, circus, etc., and is mistaken for a giant mouse by Sylvester the Cat. Frequently, Hopper changes places with an actual mouse, generally when it is most embarrassing for Sylvester. Sylvester tries to capture...

1 hour later…

SPArcheon

12:30 PM

back here

As a side notice to the little chat above, not really sure about this...

Did 40' Disney actually went for a "family friendly, love, friendship and hugs" PR view?

I don't know much about Disney history, but thinking of the old tv shorts I remember some very disturbing things. continues in the Dragon room

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