Not a bar, but plays one on TV

5:02 AM

@doppelgreener I'm slowly going through the TRPG General Chat transcript of the past 2 weeks, and came across this:

in TRPG General Chat, Jul 8 at 12:40, by doppelgreener

I came across a description (and screenshots!) of a WotC expansion for D&D that attempted to represent Native Americans. In it, the author saw fit to give Native Americans a penalty to INT and WIS scores. (Or just INT? Pretty sure it was both.)

did you find it? If not, here you go: twitter.com/FreyjaErlings/status/1277615277258223616

BESW

Nice find!

V2Blast

the supplement in question is "GAZ14: The Atruaghin Clans" for D&D Basic 2e

I knew I'd seen it recently too, so I searched my browser history for Twitter links with the words "Native American"

BESW

So it's not a WotC-made product, they're re-publishing it.

V2Blast

yeah, it was by TSR:

The Atruaghin Clans

The Atruaghin Clans (product code GAZ14) is an accessory for the Dungeons & Dragons fantasy role-playing game. The book was written by William W. Connors, and was published in 1991. Cover art is by Clyde Caldwell, with interior illustrations by Stephen Fabian. == Contents == The book describes the territory of the Known World/Mystara known as "the Atruaghin Clans", which are a society loosely based on American Indian tribes. The publication consists of two booklets, a fold-out map and a cardboard cover. The 64-page booklet "Player's Guide" describes the realm of the Atruaghin Clans within the D...

BESW

I've seen people trying to use that as a defense, but I gotta say it's h*ckin' anemic.

V2Blast

5:08 AM

definitely. WotC didn't make it but they have continued to sell it and make money from it (or try to, at least)

trogdor

yeesh

BESW

I do sometimes worry that this massively obvious bigotry makes it easier for people who are so inclined to overlook the bigotry and erasure of the modern texts which is quieter by comparison.

V2Blast

oh also a ping for @Rubiksmoose about the supplement mentioned above since they said they were trying to remember the name too :P

BESW

But then I look at all of WotC's real-life bigotry and erasure and abuse and exploitation, and that's what we should really be focused on; the texts will get dealt with appropriately only if/when the workplace is either improved or set on fire (but I repeat myself).

V2Blast

Yeah

BESW

5:17 AM

It's kinda wild how we had all that orc 💿🐴 drama and then a short time later it's turned into [gestures around].

(Did you see the zombie disc horse?)

V2Blast

@BESW Indeed. It definitely caused a little bit of burnout for me as a mod of /r/dndnext, as the topics all attracted their share of bad-faith trolls

@BESW I did not! :D

BESW

@V2Blast As LuchaLibris said, "Is it good or does it have a marketing team?"

I can't even imagine what Reddit's making of all this, the frozen peaches are strong with them.

V2Blast

A surprising amount of the conversation is reasonable and trying to learn, at least (even if a bit too defensive). Though my expectations were low to begin with, and I feel like fatigue over discussing the issues is beginning to set in with some users.

Also, obviously, it'll vary by community - some subreddits will probably have a better quality of discussion, and others will be worse.

BESW

Yeah. I've settled on having conversations with people I've already established a connection with, and otherwise throwing sources over my shoulder as I flee.

V2Blast

5:32 AM

Haha, basically. I haven't participated in the discussions in /r/dndnext so much as I have mostly just looked through the threads for rule violations and trolls. I can't make people understand, but I can at least keep out the folks looking to just throw insults and mock the idea of even having a serious discussion.

BESW

That's good work.

There's a lot of people who aren't trying to make trouble, but are struggling to recognize that everything they know about the inner workings of the companies they buy from, comes from sanitized PR-approved media.

Whereas if you listen to indie and artist conversations, you get a very different impression of Wizards because there's enough people not bound by all the NDAs and litigious threats.

Adeptus

5:59 AM

Via twitter: When you’ve seen evething today... Here’s an elephant sliding a hill..

Carcer

8:22 AM

hm

looking at the Atruaghin clan thing

it's bad, but does explicitly say of the lower int/wis attributes: "This should not be taken to indicate that members of the clans are any less intelligent than those in the rest of the world, only that they lack the time and the schooling systems needed to fully develop their mental powers"... so at least it's not genuinely implying inherent inferiority

just, you know, cultural inferiority.

V2Blast

Grant Imahara passed away yesterday following a brain aneurysm, at the age of 49. :(

Carcer

yeah, it sucks.

V2Blast

8:42 AM

Naya Rivera's death was also recently confirmed

It has been quite a weekend (and quite a month, and quite a year)

BESW

8:53 AM

@Carcer [face/palm] Yes, the kinds of cultures that master wayfinding and permaculture and thousands of microclimate-specific plant species haven't "fully developed their mental powers" because they... don't have their kids sit around in a classroom being lectured into conformity?

That's a h*ck of a take, TSR.

Carcer

@BESW yeah, it's still hot garbage. But as a take it at least paints the author in a slightly better light than having them just be naturally unintelligent.

The "Horse Clan" have no spoken language and instead communicate with a language of hand signals and gestures, a concept I'm pretty sure the author just lifted from the neanderthals in Earth's Children...

BESW

[recoils, hissing, at the mention of Jean Marie Auel]

Carcer

oh, presumably based on PISL, actually. I should look things up better

I apologise for mentioning Jean M. Auel!

doppelgreener

10:07 AM

@V2Blast that's it! Thank you

@BESW six years after oriental adventures

@V2Blast and like, current disney, and current warner bros, has few or no people who are responsible for older racist content. so they (the people) didn't make it, they're just republishing it. but they still acted on it.

Derpy

10:25 AM

@doppelgreener Didn't Disney even had to add "warning: racism inside" disclaimers on some of older movies now available on streaming?

doppelgreener

@Derpy Yes and no. They added "This program is presented as originally created. It may contain outdated cultural depictions." Compare the Warner Bros disclaimer outright calling it racial prejudice, and saying it was wrong then and wrong now.

So, mostly no

Derpy

@doppelgreener Great! (disclaimer: actually, not)

doppelgreener

lol

Derpy

Oh, well, it's disney, what to expect.

Carcer

big mouse gonna irresponsible capitalism

Derpy

10:34 AM

Kudos for the ones who still remember "The Rescuers" window scandal.....

anyway, just wondering....

Do anyone in the room saw this?

BESW

@doppelgreener Speaking of which:

in TRPG General Chat, yesterday, by BESW

Kazumi Chin wrote a twitter thread about how it is possible for us to replace the word game with experience, and how doing so allows me to better understand what it is that a lyric game hopes to accomplish.

Derpy

Yes, it reads "Lyra + BonBon"

Carcer

@Derpy I fell off the pony wagon ages ago but that's nice

Derpy

@Carcer they are an official couple in season 9 (last FiM season).

And... Scootaloo two aunts are a couple too.

Carcer

better late than never

BESW

10:41 AM

Heh. Nice, but it seems almost quaint in a world with She-Ra, Kipo, The Hollow, etc.

doppelgreener

@BESW I read that! I'm mostly on board with this criticism of the idea; game suggests an active creative role, but experience suggests a passive receptive role. That potential rename is a useful move to consider even though I don't think it's the right move to make.

BESW

Whoops, that's not the thread I meant to link, though it's good.

doppelgreener

There's also the thing where "experience" is now in the bin of wish-washy marketing terms, as seen on such advertising as a discount sale being marketed as a "sales experience"

BESW

in TRPG General Chat, Jul 8 at 9:36, by BESW

As Phenexian points out (twitter link), "unlike cartoons [which seem to be model WotC used for the disclaimer], DnD books are guides for how to craft new stories. It's designed to propagate those ideas. They're not equivalent."

@doppelgreener I hate how many excellent words are being rendered useless by corporatespeak.

doppelgreener

@BESW oh same

@BESW yes. very good thread and tweet

BESW

10:46 AM

Dangit, I want to coordinate and facilitate experiences without sounding like I'm the white person giving an afternoon of race sensitivity training at Starbucks.

~~test~~

say what now

It's a test.

oookkkk...

also Test

doppelgreener

10:56 AM

@BESW neat

Also reminds me there is a QA company named Test Company Please Ignore

Rubiksmoose

12:12 PM

@V2Blast No idea how you found this, but thank you

Actually how the heck did you find it?

Carcer

7 hours ago, by V2Blast

I knew I'd seen it recently too, so I searched my browser history for Twitter links with the words "Native American"

BESW

I saw it as part of a thread without clicking on that particular tweet, so it never showed up in my history.

Derpy

@doppelgreener Reminds me of a SharePoint specific error class named "IgnoreMeException"

in The DMZ, Sep 6 '19 at 13:11, by Derpy

Rubiksmoose

12:38 PM

@BESW It must have been the same for me since I tried what V2 did. I'm happy it was found though!

@Derpy Ignore me!

doppelgreener

12:56 PM

@Derpy no. why

(read in a tone of shaken disbelief)

Derpy

1:49 PM

@doppelgreener what can I say. SharePoint is a mess.

V2Blast

7:01 PM

@Rubiksmoose @BESW Haha, I sometimes click on the specific tweets in a thread specifically so they'll show up in my browser history and be searchable that way :P

Transcript for

Not a bar, but plays one on TV