Not a bar, but plays one on TV - 2020-04-04

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12:40 AM

@Shalvenay Probably what was coming in through his headset were direct orders from Caracas and his national command authority: The modern age allows that kind of micromanagement. :p

I doubt he'd have done that without being told to...

1:07 AM

yeah, ramming is crazy enough, but to try to ram something that's ice classed?

I'm just glad we're landlocked

6 hours later…

7:25 AM

@BESW Excellent thread, thanks for sharing this :)

3 hours later…

10:10 AM

Some talks with @BESW have made me more aware of and pay more attention to make my game a safe place. (Even if I accidentally came of as stand-off-ish then, I did learn)
[This](https://twitter.com/skinnyghost/status/1246140090436313088) happened and made me realize that even people that are usually very concerned about safety people's boundaries, can shut their brain off and do wrong.

Apparently I can't even follow instructions to make links look good :/

10:35 AM

@Helwar [wave] Forced line breaks within the same message also break almost all markdown.

And let's move this to the Not A Bar so people don't have to engage with that subject except by choice.

← 4 messages moved from RPG General Chat

I linked a few small responses above, which focus on the idea of realizing that safety tools need to (a) be made more ubiquitous and (b) be understood as tools that can break, and so we need ways to handle what happens when they don't work for us.

I've also been privileged to "listen" to semi-private conversations among TRPG developers from vulnerable communities, and the general mood I'm seeing is that focusing on the transgressor is a bad choice because it makes the conversation about redemption vs punishment rather than about justice for all the individuals involved and the community as a whole.

11:36 AM

Hey my apologies, I was out

SO you talked about this yesterday, sorry. I just read this when I woke up and thought it would be interesting to share

Also thanks for moving it here :)

@Helwar No worries!

It's not like one person talking about it means nobody else can.

I do think it's important to include the voice of the person most affected and not just the version presented by the person who caused the problem, though?

Yeah I saw that too, someone linked it in the same twitter feed

I super appreciate that your response to this is to reflect on your own capacity for harm and how to prepare for it.

I'm gonna say, I know Adam (as much as one can know an internet personality over the years), and usually, he cares a lot about these things and it's surprising to see him do this. But no one is infallible, and I'm sure he will make it double sure that it doesn't happen ever again

I thought Jacob Gohbar's response was a very touching and mature reflection on their parasocial relationship.

11:47 AM

I mean, he has multiple games, in one he was encouraged by the player that was possessed by the ghost of an old man to let the ghost "have fun" with the body, and it was all played for laughs because in that group, it was deemed as funny.
Then he goes to another group and this happens, and I can see where he was thinking "this is ok" and didn't double check if it was really ok or not.

I'm not gonna comment, I don't know anything about him or his games.

But if you don't mind, I'd like to copy-paste something I said in a chat about justice in the TRPG community, which was sparked by these events.

Oki! Makes sense

sure

> I have lots of thoughts about justice, and how it needs to be balanced between both punishment and reward, and counterbalanced by mercy, but the only thought I've got that's obviously practical for this particular context is:
I think as a hobby we need to confront how toxic it is to conflate the responsibilities of running a game with the authority of creative and social control. TRPGs often have a "great man" view of creativity (see the "great man theory of history") and understanding accomplishment as collaborative rather than individual, within game development AND at the table AND in …

taking it in

No need for response if you don't feel you've got something to say, don't worry.

11:55 AM

I mean, yeah I don't have anything to add, I find it's pretty much all there

I like Jacob's suggestion that streaming games should use their safety tools in the open as much as possible, to model good behaviour and make it easier to actually use them when they're needed.

2

my take on this whole situation (Adam and Elspeth's case), is that we have a man that has been a paradigm of inclusiveness and respect, loved by everyone, that has now done wrong once. He apologizes, stops the series that's his income revenue, and goes to a counselor about it. And Internet's response is: "You are now worse than Satan"

And Ash McAllan has a thread about the "resistance" mechanic in Blades and how attaching a price to a safety tool can actually make it easier to use.

@BESW Yeah! That seems ok. It doesn't even need to be super intrusive, and people would see it as a common occurrence and don't feel it's "too much" (like I did before)

@Helwar Let's not go overboard here. Like I said, I'm unfamiliar with him myself, but I do know that before this particular event I'd heard rumblings that he wasn't consistently walking the talk. That's one reason for transparency in safety tools: that game with the possession played for laughs? Did he check with people about that before and during like he should have, or did he just do it and that time everybody acted like it was okay?

Part of avoiding demonification for wrongdoing is avoiding beatification beforehand.

12:00 PM

@BESW He was encouraged by the actual player, live there when it happened

@BESW 100% agree

Give people room to be human--which does include removing somebody from their lives for treating trauma as a joke.

I hate that the format of podcasts is unsuited to easy searching; I have an account from someone who's gamed with Koebel, but I need to actually find it, and chats move so fast I feel that the content would quickly become irrelevant, if it wasn't already.

@Helwar Glad to hear it. And the rest of the group consented enthusiastically as well, naturally.

@BESW huh?

@BESW Yes it was played for laughs and everyone laughed

12:04 PM

I should read that tomorrow, that sounds weird

but I need sleep now

@trogdor It's the overlay problem! A safety tool is inherently disruptive, and the less it's attached the ebb and flow of gameplay the more disruptive it is.

hmm

That disruption is a social cost which can make a safety tool unusable in practice.

mk

But if the safety tool is tied into the game mechanics and is presented as part of the balance of the game, the disruption--and thus the social cost--is reduced.

12:07 PM

@Powerdork If you are able to find it, and it's not too much work, I would be interested to listen to that :)

I need to go now, I'll be back in a couple of hours

@Helwar It's in a Patreon-only show, unfortunately.

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Transcript for

Apr '204

Not a bar, but plays one on TV

I'm not a place to unwind after work, but I play one on TV.

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