Not a bar, but plays one on TV

9:02 AM

@Derpy I just watched 5 episodes of Aggretsuko. just thought I would mention that I kinda like it since you mentioned it to me a while back

(her work situation is way worse than mine but I feel like that is part of the point)

Derpy

@trogdor Japan anime often end up in very weird attempt to "condemn" common social issues. Aggretsuko seems to be one.

trogdor

well, I think it's just targeted at people who have any amount of dissatisfaction at work at all

which is fair

that must be a large market

Derpy

Also consider that as far as I know, Assassination Classroom (yep, the one with the killer alien octopus) was also meant to condemn the current state of Japan education system.

More specifically the "ditch students that are considered no-hope cases"

So... yep, it is weird indeed

doppelgreener

i enjoyed that show :)

there's also a series of shorts (shorter than 10m!) that was made before the netflix series.

trogdor

@doppelgreener of which one?

doppelgreener

9:18 AM

of aggretsuko

Derpy

Anyway, at least Aggretsuko managed to drawn some attention on some of the issues portrayed in the show

trogdor

@doppelgreener ah ok

doppelgreener

I have a Japanese colleague, who tells me Japan's trying to change some of the workplace issues.

trogdor

the episodes are 15 minutes long,.. so they are sooooo easy to watch XD

doppelgreener

They are!

trogdor

9:19 AM

@doppelgreener that would be great,... I don't know how bad it really is but I have heard horrible stuff

doppelgreener

For example, there's a practice where you do not leave work until your manager leaves. And they do not leave until their manager leaves. And so on. This works great when you only have one or two senior positions, but in an office with 10 levels of management this cascades down quite badly.

So the gov't is trying to draw a line there suggesting employees shouldn't work more than 9(?) hours a day and should go home at a respectable hour, regardless of whether management is still present.

trogdor

mmm

yeah I feel like that is a good idea

set hours are good

Derpy

"karoshi"

I think Japan (/Asia) is one of the few cultures to actually have a dedicated word for "death of overwork"

That alone says a lot.

doppelgreener

Karōshi

Karōshi (過労死), which can be translated literally as "overwork death" in Japanese, is occupational sudden mortality. The major medical causes of karōshi deaths are heart attack and stroke due to stress and a starvation diet. This phenomenon is also widespread in South Korea, where it is referred to as gwarosa (과로사). In Chinese, overwork-induced death is called guolaosi (Traditional:過勞死 Simplified:过劳死). == History == The first case of karōshi was reported in 1969 with the stroke-related death of a 29-year-old male worker in the shipping department of Japan's largest newspaper company. The term was...

trogdor

yeah, it's weird how that is a thing at all to me

but anyway, I really like it

:)

it's a fun show

doppelgreener

9:32 AM

@Derpy it means they minmaxed for productivity and their dump stat was self-care

trogdor

great way to describe it

Derpy

9:45 AM

@doppelgreener I'm... not sure that is the point. But I am just an "external" observer of the issue, so I don't know how accurate my perceptions are.

To me, it looks like they have somehow crossed the "honor" scale on the opposite side.

It is like they indeed think it is unethical to not overwork.

Which, to be fair, is some very wrong vision that still manages to be "sold" in many workplaces around the world.

trogdor

yeah

Derpy

It is not like where I live many companies wouldn't be happy if suddenly we all turned into "karoshi salary men / women"

trogdor

seems like a part of their concept of honor, which is known to me but which I am not an expert at

doppelgreener

There's a separate reference frame of values, and there is a different relationship between managers and subordinates in the workforce. Those values include meeting obligations and devoting yourself to a task with significant resolve. It's not that it's unethical to not overwork, it's that overwork can come as a side-effect of pursuing what Japanese society values, like a glitch.

The same way pursuing free speech and individual liberty has resulted in a lot of glitches in the USA.

trogdor

astute comparison I think

doppelgreener

9:50 AM

They're good values and people devote themselves to those values, but it can have some problematic side-effects which people inside and outside the country may be horrified by, but unsure how to resolve congruent with the basic values of society.

Derpy

@doppelgreener yep, that is probably what I was trying to say, thanks.

weird thing... those are also the countries that managed to wrote things like "The art of War"

> 故善战者，求之于势，不责于人

which basically would mean

> The expert in battle seeks his victory from strategic advantage and does not demand it from his men.

trogdor

well I mean, we are talking about two entirely different countries now too

Japan didn't produce the art of war

Derpy

@trogdor I know, I was somehow extending the issue to Asia too.

trogdor

mk

Derpy

Based on some report, it seems like "karoshi" deaths are common in Asia too

That said you have a fair point there. I am not sure the root causes can be the same between - for example - Japan and China.

doppelgreener

10:00 AM

@Derpy right, though they're also the countries that invented the army tactic that says (as not entirely metaphor): “If you encounter a moat, fill it with your bodies until your comrades can cross it. If you encounter a wall, pile your corpses high to let your comrades climb it.” It is a very, very different view of the value of life, one that stems from people seeing themselves as merely a small part of a bigger picture, and the bigger picture is what's important.

Derpy

@doppelgreener See: Hero

doppelgreener

see in what regard?

Derpy

The ending.

Have you ever seen the movie? I can recap if you wish, but maybe you prefer I don't if you have any plan to watch it.

doppelgreener

I haven't. I think I will.

(I prefer you wouldn't summarise the ending in this case :D)

trogdor

I did just read a plot synopsis and I think I understand what you mean

basically a lot of characters either sacrificing themselves for what they think is the right thing (even though they often disagree on what that is exactly) and even one who doesn't technically sacrifice himself but feels he must do something he doesn't want to for the greater good

very much the kind of story I would expect from China

Derpy

10:18 AM

basically that's it, yes.

But... you should really watch the actual movie if you are interested.

trogdor

I think I will

Derpy

There are many nice ideas that aren't probably very evident just from reading the synopsis.

trogdor

it looks cool

Derpy

for example, pay attention to the color schemes uses during the story.

trogdor

ok, will do then

Derpy

10:21 AM

Anyway, on an unrelated notice, speaking of this reminded me I still have to watch/read (depending on what I can find available to me - I think the manga was indeed translated into English?) Girls Last Tour.

trogdor

what is that about?

Derpy

> The series follows two girls, Yuuri and Chito, as they navigate the ruins of civilization after an unknown apocalypse, and as they travel in their modified Kettenkrad, they seek food and supplies while surviving day-to-day.

they told me it is very melancholic/heartwarming, so I guessed it may be worth a try.

Derpy

10:39 AM

@trogdor back to Aggretsuko, I am somehow sad that the "angry" version of the official plush Sanrio made is out-of-stock basically everywhere.

either they made very few of them, I looked to late... or every Japanese office employee now keeps a Retsuko plush in the pocket.

trogdor

lol

I wouldn't be surprised

well ok I would because that is a lot, but I expect the number might be high

and heck, maybe a lot of purchases outside Japan too

Derpy

but there are plenty of "normal" Retsuko plushes left.

Everyone just bought the angry one ^_^'

trogdor

lol

I wouldn't necessarily mind one of those

Derpy

They should call in the KIϟϟ for a collaboration

trogdor

11:03 AM

lol

Derpy

@trogdor They already did a collaboration with the idol group Momoiro Clover Z

trogdor

ah

Derpy

【ももクロMV】ももいろクローバーZ vs KISS - 夢の浮世に咲いてみな（YUMENO UKIYONI SAITEMINA／MOMOIRO CLOVER Z vs KISS）

►

for reference, Momoiro Clover Z is the group that made "Moon Pride", the OP song for Sailor Moon Crystal

trogdor

11:38 AM

ah

Never saw that or the original

I do mean to give either or both a try, but I spend a lot of my free time on other things XD

Aggretsuko being so short was a huge factor

Derpy

@trogdor I didn't watch either too. But I saw some episodes of the original show. I only watched the season 3? arc in crystal because I wanted to see if the claims that the original manga version of Hotaru story was much more darker than the one she got in the original TV version were true. And since the new show was supposed to be closer to the original manga I watched part of it.

And... yep, it is pretty dark.

not Madoka level of dark but surely not "rainbows and unicorns" either.

trogdor

11:53 AM

I've only seen clips

Not even one full episode

Plus, I technically have,... 3? Anime to finish before I start on something else

I could just not finish them first, but I kinda want to

Derpy

I hope one of them isn't Made in Abyss.

trogdor

Nope

Derpy

good I suppose?

Made in abyss is yet another of those treacherous anime that lures you in with nice colors and hope to see a funny light story...

trogdor

12:12 PM

And then it gets super dark?

Sensing a slight pattern

Derpy

@trogdor nope, it is kinda dark from the start to be fair.

trogdor

Ah

Derpy

If you only read the premise (a girl finds a robot boy and together they go "exploring" a sort of "ravine" which backstory is somehow uncertain) you may think this will be some sort of "anime Goonies"

Aka "little young explorer in fantasy world"

then you may notice the "out of place" elements in the starting plot

Like for example that the girl is basically a slave and together with other kids is being used as low cost sacrificable manpower to "dig" for resources in said ravine...

so, very cute artstyle but somehow heavy plot.

trogdor

Urg

A little like Fullmetal Alchemist

Even from the start pretty dark story

But it actually still got worse than the starting point

Derpy

It is very odd that you mention it.... because the old "What I expected / what I got" meme images made for Made in abyss very often include a very precise reference to FMA

also, quick hint.

trogdor

12:25 PM

Ah, I must be accidentally psychic

I still have not finished FMA

It's one of the three

Derpy

if you ever plan to watch it, never ever do a google search for Made in Abyss

Doing so will almost certainly include at least a picture from the final episodes in the first 10 search results

trogdor

It hits something horrible?

Oh

Derpy

@trogdor no, just guaranteed spoiler.

trogdor

Noted

Anyway, now I gotta get to bed

doppelgreener

ttfn!

Derpy

12:39 PM

@trogdor please, remember to leave your crown unguarded on the nearby nightstand. And the door to the room with the mirror unlocked, too.

Derpy

12:49 PM

> "Vene Vidi Igni" - The unofficial "motto" of arcane casters on the Khyber server in Dungeons & Dragons Online, which they translate as "I came, I saw, I set it on fire."

2

doppelgreener

@Derpy Why would they leave that door unlocked? That's terrible security. Just leave the window open. And a ladder next to it outside. And leave a candle inside the room, so that everyone knows what room to, um, not use the ladder to get into, so that there's no mixups.

@Derpy hahaha :D

Derpy

@doppelgreener Just a reference to Equestria Girl 1 since trogdor still uses Twily as an avatar.

@doppelgreener yep, I had the same reaction, so I wanted to share that quote.

trogdor

8:03 PM

@Derpy lol, I have a better idea, idisolve that crown into it's base atoms and call it a day

Transcript for

Not a bar, but plays one on TV