Backup Room – The h Bar

12:17 AM

Hi Heather. I don't know you, and you don't know me, but I was glad to see you engaging clearly in Good Faith on the chat-moderation question. I'm just catching up on the transcript from earlier and saw something where I felt like I needed to speak up. You said (the message that I'm replying to) that mods should be enacting community-created policy. To which I say "yes/no." I don't know if most people are aware, but we sign a ToS stating that we'll further *SE* policy when we accept moderatorship.

heather

that might be a nice thing for more people to know =)

aside from that, I still stand by the point.

you might have seen my analogy that society enacts laws that overarch everything, but we also enact our own laws for ourselves.

nitsua60

I'm not sure I'm there yet. (I'm basically just at the message I replied to.)

heather

ah.

apologies =)

nitsua60

@heather That... just feels to me like it's missing a big component: this isn't our (collective0 land we're building a society on. [Okay, breaking out of the analogy here.] We're chatting on servers that are owned and maintained and run by a company, and that company has ToS.

heather

what I meant by that point is this: you as moderators are of course obligated by agreement/contract to enact SE policy. but we elected you. you are obligated by that "contract" to enact our policy, that we create on meta, and listen to us.

@nitsua60 that company has given us a considerable amount of freedom.

our rules must lie within SE rules, but they are still user-created rules.

nitsua60

12:22 AM

@heather And what do you expect of me when your policy contradicts their policies?

heather

for example:

ignore ours, tell us why, and go on with SE.

nitsua60

(I don't mean you personally, of course.)

heather

> our rules must lie within SE rules, but they are still user-created rules.

nitsua60

I agree ^^

heather

as we elected you (collectively all mods, I mean) you must follow not just SE rules but also communicate with us and use us to decide gray areas.

we can't define everything as users, but on big issues, you need to listen to users. i feel like chat mods haven't really been doing that as they've been "cracking down".

they say that things have been going a bit far - but I'm not sure that's true at all.

most people in chat are either quite polite, or occasionally (rarely) borderline, or outright troll that no one objects to being banned.

when people enter gray areas user policy comes into play, as long as it's within SE policy.

does what I'm saying make sense?

I was trying to get that point across in the conversation, but I'm not sure it made it.

nitsua60

12:25 AM

@heather I will say that I have recently starting popping into chat rooms (and checking transcripts) other than my "home" site, and I'm often aghast at what I'm seeing.

heather

@nitsua60 really? have you been in hbar?

nitsua60

@heather Yes.

heather

and you think the same?

("aghast")

nitsua60

[searching for the words]

THe message of yours that I responded to... it was part of a (reasonable-looking) conversation you were having about an earlier argument, remember?

heather

sure. but that argument was also fairly civil.

nitsua60

12:28 AM

That earlier argument... apalled me.

heather

(at least I thought so, especially considering mods escalated it.)

nitsua60

Someone flagged something as offensive and some of the other chatizens present didn't respect that.

heather

"chatizens" - that's an awesome pormanteau.

anyway.

let me look at it again.

ah, the flagging of using "American" to refer to the U.S.?

here's what I'd say about offense:

> If one person is offended, but most other people are gaining something from the conversation, you wouldn't necessarily end the conversation, would you? with a more extreme example: if someone was offended that someone was talking about the physics of the atomic bomb, because they are anti-atomic or something, but it was an interesting, lively, and calm discussion, would you end it?

^from earlier comment I stated earlier today.

that comment, if I remember the context, was not extreme in any way. the person who was offended probably needed to take it easy.

of course, I could be wrong.

further, mods escalated it.

nitsua60

@heather I have trouble with that sentiment.

(The second sentence, that is.)

heather

Okay, let me start with an extreme example.

If someone gets offended when someone mentions the word "donuts", you'd probably think that person was trolling, or if they weren't, wouldn't find it an issue, right?

Above, you'll notice that Daniel Sank mentioned he gets legitimately offended by boy bands, but doesn't flag comments mentioning them, because among other reasons, mods wouldn't really take that seriously.

Those are extreme examples. So clearly there are situations where someone being "offended" is the one going extreme, not the person talking.

nitsua60

12:35 AM

@heather I would probably think that, yes. And I'd also avoid talking about donuts. If nothing else, it's really good practice for me, taking care to listen to what those around me are saying and incorporating it int my communication.

heather

But would you ban anyone else for saying donuts?

would you kick anyone or timeout the room?

I guarantee you most people would think the person was trolling.

nitsua60

@heather Why does it matter the person's intent?

heather

the context?

surely you'd respond differently if someone said they were offended by someone saying "donuts" and someone said it, vs if someone said they were offended by someone saying expletives and someone responded with a string of risque, cuss-filled material.

nitsua60

@heather How could I, if I Assume Good Faith?

(I'm being a touch facetious... gimme a sec.)

heather

if you respond the exact same way, i then lose hope for moderators.

that's not how it works, and that's not how it should work.

nitsua60

12:39 AM

(See two messages above, please; rewind a moment while I clean up the mess I just made, inadvertently.)

heather

? I see no mess...

nitsua60

@heather (I've probably convinced you I'm a blathering idiot or a troll, when I'm trying to be neither.)

heather

oh. um, yeah, kind of.

My thought: Be Nice, yes, but also be reasonable. Donuts are great for most people. Cuss words are not great for most. Calling someone from the U.S. American is normal for most people and non-offensive.

Of course, there are exceptions, but I hope my point is clear.

nitsua60

@heather Okay, sure. This is a good example, because it recently came up, right?

heather

exactly.

So, if someone flags a comment where I call myself an American, hopefully people ignore that flag!

nitsua60

12:41 AM

I'll colloquially use the term "American" just as much as most other US citizens to rever to my nationality.

heather

exactly.

So, when that person flagged the use of the term American - well, they probably were the one in the wrong, not the person who said it. being accepting goes both ways.

nitsua60

@heather No. If someone flags a comment where you call yourself an American, I'll pop in (if I'm the one that sees it) and say "am I missing something--what's offensive about what heather just said?"

@heather Theyre not wrong to flag.

heather

@nitsua60 and if the person said "the term American is discriminatory towards other people in the Americas" your response would be...

@nitsua60 um...

we can't treat everyone as a delicate little flower.

Again, being accepting/nice goes both ways.

I think they can deal with a fairly obviously not-meant-to-be-offensive comment.

nitsua60

And if the response is "you know, I'm from Chile and it really bugs the hell out of me when norteamericanos refer to themselves as "Americans" exclusively," then my response is "hey, room, let's be a little more precise with our language, please."

heather

::sighs:: I'm sorry, you really sound troll like here. I'm not saying I wouldn't comply - I probably would - but a. I'd rather the person just made a simple request, or started an interesting debate, rather than flag, and b. I'd be a little annoyed at you.

nitsua60

12:45 AM

@heather But we can learn from people. We're interacting with people from all over the globe, from all walks of life, with all experiences. I can't expect a user will never say something that offends someone else. I do expect a user to care when they learn they have.

@heather (I swear I'm not.)

@heather Yes, it'd be best if the user spoke up using their words.

heather

@nitsua60 sure, we can try to expect the world to be perfect. but i'm not sure that's the best approach.

nitsua60

But we also give them (and you!) this tool in case they're not really feeling like jumping into a hostile crowd.

heather

what's your response if the user doesn't comply with the other user's request?

nitsua60

@heather Which one?

heather

user a: "American"
user b: "no no"
user a: "American" (deliberate or accidental, two separate answers if you want)

nitsua60

12:47 AM

(nvm--got the thread back)

heather

your response to user a is...

nitsua60

@heather "A: please be a little more careful. Appropriating a term that refers to a billion [I'm just spitballing the number, here] people to refer to only one-third of that group is really exclusionary and, frankly, offensive to the other 700 million you're putting outside your linguistic line. And you've been told that already."

And so far, I see no problems.

heather

and if it continues?

nitsua60

This, IMO, is perfectly normal chatizenry.

@heather So I've seen the "continues" go on two different paths: (i) is ten minutes or a half-hour or a day later, probably honestly wasn't thinking. Repeat previous message.

(ii) is quickly spamming "American American AMerican", and that gets a kick.

In plenty of rooms around this network the flag-incident we're discussing would have been respectfully handled, and two days later someone else would talk about "Americans" and somone (not the original flagger) would say "you know, you're excluding 700Mppl when you use the term that way, and it's kinda rude," and that message would get taken up and become part of "room culture."

from then on room culture += "using imprecise language about nationalities can be a minefield; try to be clear when communicating"

@heather (afk a bit--gotta put the kids to bed)

heather

okay thanks @nitsua60 I'll be around

nitsua60

1:42 AM

@heather back, if it matters. (Kinda feel like I was losing you at the end there.)

heather

i actually have only a few minutes before i need to head to bed myself.

but to summarize: i agree with your thoughts generally, though I think there's a middle ground between spam and forgetting, where most things end up lying. so why was it you found the conversation so horrific? people were discussing why there was a problem with the phrase "American"

nitsua60

@heather It looked to me like a user's complaint/request, while unusual and one I'd never have thought of, wasn't treated as valid.

heather

it looked to me like a user's complaint/request, a mod over-enforcing, and users questioning that over-enforcing.

nitsua60

Did it look to you like the room respected the user's complaint about a usage of the term "American" in a way that they felt devalued their nationality/culture?

heather

2:06 AM

I'd have to reread it to comment on that.

but I know the above was my impression.

nitsua60

@heather here's the bit I'm talking about.

Already, by the point that snippet ends, I'm flabbergasted.

heather

consider the person who was offended is the one who's being...edgy.

a bit too edgy given the situation.

others are simply responding to that.

nitsua60

(After that it gets into a cycle that looks all-too-familiar: people start arguing about the argument, about who gets to be offended by what, personal insults, people try to joke as a way of defusing it (not realizing that rarely works in text), people are talking past each other and spinning off into random/unrelated side-rants.... And I don't even want to talk (yet) about when the mods get involved.)

@heather No doubt: they totally started things off on the wrong foot.

heather

sorry, i have to go now - could we talk later?

nitsua60

I'm asking you to consider that every other person in the room missed the opportunity to greet that person--even in their bad moment--with humanity and humility, with the reaction "whoa! I didn't know that even could be offensive. I need to rethink some things. Would you mind helping me learn some more?"

@heather Absolutely!

I tend to be around evenings US Eastern, but the next three days are crazy. (My daughter's in a play opening tomorrow, so we've got three sets of house guests three days running =\

Kunal Pawar

2:19 AM

@JohnRennie Ozymandias :O?

John Rennie

4:35 AM

@KunalPawar Yes. I love the poem, and as a child I saw the statue of Ramesses II (now restored) that inspired it.

zhk

7:26 AM

@heather Thank you for your commitment to the cause.
Anyone else interested in Maple then please join us here
http://area51.stackexchange.com/proposals/107315/maple

Kunal Pawar

8:35 AM

@JohnRennie So I haven't forgotten after all :) It's a beautiful poem. But it's been quite a while since I last read it:/ Three years.

Transcript for

Backup Room – The h Bar