The Sand Trap - 2022-09-03

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12:45 AM

There are people asking some really easily Googled questions in one of my class's Piazzas and I am itching to leave passive-aggressive comments with lmgtfy links

How hard can it be copy the error the compiler gives you and paste that into Google?

@user now's your chance to look like the smart one

Get a little bit of clout by giving them answers

sometimes people ask on SO why some error comes up but the error comes with very helpful information telling them exactly how to fix it. so of course, people answer and tell them what the error said, and it fixed it of course

1:01 AM

Lol

@lyxal yeah that’s what I’m doing

Never could resist condescending to people

@Steffan I read something about a feminist researcher who wanted to change compiler warnings so they are less "aggressive and dominating". Instead of explaining the error in a short and sweet way, they wanted the compiler to say something along the lines of "I'm not sufficiently intelligent to understand what you want me to do! Sorry!"

Meanwhile, I'd prefer if the compiler spat out "you missed a semicolon, moron" at me. :D

in The DMZ, Aug 9 at 3:46, by belkarx

user image

@forest did the researcher claim that was feminism or did they just happen to be feminist?

@user They were developing a "feminist programming language" or something.

I'm not really sure that that means, though.

If it’s the former, that’s kinda funny but also sad. People like that make people think feminism is a bunch of sensitive idiots when it’s just about equality

That's egalitarian feminism. Gender feminism is the over-sensitive kind.

1:09 AM

Do you happen to have a link?

Yeah let me find it.

Maybe it makes more sense in context

Obviously they never actually wrote the language, just discussed what kinds of things it should have (using terms that are completely foreign to anyone who actually studies CS). See hastac.org/blogs/ari-schlesinger/2013/11/26/… and the comments.

They claim that object-oriented programming languages "reifies normative subject object theory".

That article left me without any idea what a feminist language would even look like

@user The comments are even weirder.

1:12 AM

Admittedly I didn’t know a lot of the words but they seemed like philosophy terms?

They discuss what it means and clearly it makes sense to them, but it doesn't make any sense to me.

Feels like a joke

It kind of does, but it's not.

The third comment down seems as confused as us

So not all socks or something

This is clearly some sort of feminist philosophy that's being shoehorned into programming and not a parody. The C+= language was of course a joke, but this is nothing like that.

There's a really good comment down in there somewhere. I'm trying to find it.

1:16 AM

@forest the one titled What does this mean?

I'm not sure, trying to find it...

> The authors produced a compiler that emits error messages that are very different in tone than those in one might call normative compilers. Error messages are typically very authoritative and objective in tone: "Syntax error" is one of the most famously unhelpful ones, and in general, programmers usually write error messages (especially compiler error messages) from an imaginary omniscient point of view, in which the compiler (which is really the personification of the compiler writer) knows everything and any error is always the end-user programmer's fault.

That's from another comment about the whole compiler error language thing.

> I think the distinction between error messages that amount to "you did something wrong, you ignorant buffoon" and error messages that amount to "I, the compiler, am inadequate to the task of understanding your intent" is very important.

If they weren't making a category error here (programming language vs written language), this would make more sense, but other than both fitting in the field of semiotics, they're completely unrelated. A language is a specific thing, and a program can be correct or incorrect.

A compiler is never "not clever enough to understand". If you're putting in illegal code, you're putting in illegal code. It's not the compiler's job to realize "oh, this is what you wanted to do".

> Computers ALWAYS put the blame on the user, which I think needs to be addressed. If the user makes a "mistake" because there's a problem with the interface, how DARE the computer blame the user! That was the programmer's fault!

Yes, it was the programmer's fault! No matter how much you wish the C compiler understood that if foo == bar do_thing();, it's objectively wrong. It's the programmer's fault for not doing if (foo == bar) do_thing(); instead.

Okay so from one commenter it seems they feel that current languages and also logic are kinda tainted because not a lot of women were involved in their development. Which in other fields might make sense but logic deals with objective truths and programming languages don’t discriminate

Yeah that's what I'm getting as well, but how they wish to go about making a feminist programming language is where I'm lost.

They're clearly talking about something, but not using terms I (or other programmers, apparently) are familiar with.

Eh, I feel like maybe the author just got some friends to comment on that blog, grt some views. It’s a lot of words but nothing concrete

Probably not worth our time figuring out

@user I think it's because they posted it to a philosophy blog, so that was the intended audience.

1:23 AM

Ah

And yeah most certainly not worth figuring out, but it is moderately amusing to see people call a compiler a sociopath for saying foo.c:1:1: warning: type defaults to ‘int’ in declaration of ‘a’ [-Wimplicit-int]

> I've commonly made my error messages utilize the first person ("Whoops! I messed up!"), because I want the user to realize that it's not their fault that my program crashed. Our programs, our computers, and our programming languages should not be so quick to judge users, especially when the programs have no judgment skills of their own.

like... what?

There are some really unhelpful error messages out there

Oh for sure, but they're just... unhelpful, not judgemental.

And I do really like it when Rust is like “oh dear, did you do an oopsie? Here, try this instead “

@forest yeah lol

GCC is also getting better at that.

But that's necessary for Rust because it's a very demanding language.

1:26 AM

Pog

@forest yeah, the borrow checker is hell. Worth it though

It's only because the alternative is "The borrow checker didn't like that. If you keep doing that, I can't guarantee your safety. The borrow checker knows where you live."

Then C is like "Cannon loaded? Check. Has gun powder? Check. Fuse is lit? Check. Aimed at foot? Check. All's good!"

> it appears that a lot of terrified male programmers are reading this blog post and feeling the need to defend their turf. Behind the posturing, there's a big old intellectual void.

lol

A cannon with aiming? No, it’s just a grenade held right in your hand. You just hope you still have the pin

> You could say, that C, as a bootstrapped language is more anarchic, or possibly marxist as it doesn't rely on another language to work (probably ignoring assembly) (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bootstrapping_(compilers)) Is bootstrapping as development a political issue? Would a new programming language developed via bootstrapping by less concerned with power structures? A stand alone language is more contained, and so isn't at the mercy or exposed to decisions made elsewhere.

I mean, it almost seems like it's written by GPT3.

That’s it

I was wondering why the comments and article felt off

But this was posted before GPT3! Hell, this was made before GPT2.

1:34 AM

they’re probably made by humans but they have a very gpt feel

Just couldn’t put my finger on it

That's philosophy for you.

@forest looks like the author made not only an advanced non normative language but also an advanced ai :p

"I'm a philosopher."
"Oh, so you're a BULLSHIT artist?"
(I forget what movie that's from).

@forest btw, what do you mean by this? Only ever heard of egalitarianism and feminism separately. And isn’t all feminism about gender? Pretty sure the sensitive kind of feminists make up a small minority

@forest seriously though, what do modern day philosophy majors do?

Egalitarian feminism is about equality. It's about getting rid of issues that women face in society. Gender feminism is about identity politics and is the weird kind (and unfortunately it's also the dominant kind).

Gender feminism is defined as the belief that gender is an artificial construct invented by the patriarchy with the sole purpose of subjugating women. Egalitarian feminism is defined as the belief that men and women should be treated equal.

1:38 AM

Switch to other majors or teach others philosophy

Yeah I have no idea.

@forest Wikipedia doesn’t show anything about this lol: en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_feminism

It used to lol

Let me find where I saw that. I think it quoted some dictionary.

Huh, they don't have that page anymore? It must have moved.

>
Gender feminism
Gender feminism is a subdivision of feminism based on the view that the gender differences are social constructs perpetrated by men in order to maintain dominance over women. More at "Wikipedia"

According to DuckDuckGo.

@forest hmm, the second is the definition I’ve always come across. I’ve heard the part about gender being a construct and I can agree with it but never heard anyone say it’s specifically to control women (which I should be thankful for i guess)

@forest bruh why doesn’t ddg mobile show this

No idea. It's probably cached, so I guess they moved the page to a new name recently.

1:44 AM

@forest ah, they didn’t remove it

Radvylf Programs

Omgggggg Killjoys is so good

It’s the link to that book

No that's not it.

@RadvylfPrograms Oh my glorious glamorous good glittery grinning god?

Radvylf Programs

It started off kind of slow, and the writing didn't seem great, but, like Sleep, it just gets better and better

Can't wait to read Dead Satellites and National Anthem, got all of it in hardcover for like $40 total

(Context: The True Lives of the Fabulous Killjoys is a comic book made by Gerard Way, which continues the story told in their fourth album, Danger Days)

I'm gonna have to find all the MCR fans I can at school and make them read my copy of it so I'll have someone to fanboy over it with

I must infiltrate the emos

1:50 AM

Oh no

Redwolf gonna start an emo club

cmc: good sites to browse when you’re bored?

@user youtube :P

Lol

Radvylf Programs

2:06 AM

@user This is a weird one, but documentation. It's surprisingly fun to read.

or maybe I'm just surprisingly boring.

alternatively, esolangs.org is a good place to read when bored

Radvylf Programs

^

just make sure you ignore the stubs/bf clones

Radvylf Programs

I have quite a love-hate relationship with productivity

if you're really bored, TNB transcripts provide some entertainment

as does going through your previously starred messages and reliving conversations you forgot you had

Unrelated String

2:21 AM

^

2:44 AM

web.archive.org/web/20160323080634/doctormo.org/2010/08/03/…

doctormo@delen~/$ conquest
Can not connect to locahost
doctormo@delen~/$ conquestd
conquestd: Common block ident mismatch.
You must initialize the universe with conqoper.
doctormo@delen~/$ conqoper
Poor cretins such as yourself lack the skills necessary to use this program.

Radvylf Programs

I'm honestly kind of proud of myself. Ever since COVID, maybe because of the lockdowns and a lack of social interaction, or maybe just because I grew up and got more mature, I've just been really quiet and kind of shy. But since this school year started, my theme has been to get out of my comfort zone a bit, and while I'm still kind of in it, I've been more confident and stuff. I think MCR is really helping, since wearing T-shirts (1/2)

with like, stuff on them, and showing off my interests somewhat publically, fits pretty well with that theme.

I was hoping I'd finish becoming friends with someone I'd been occasionally talking with at the end of last year, but due to schedule issues we didn't end up with any classes together

The pandemic started two and a half years ago. Feel old yet?

Radvylf Programs

No, I feel way younger than I actually am :p

I should not be allowed to drive and I sure as frick am not old enough to have a job

(Which apparently the universe agrees with me, hire me pls)

I am in utter disbelief that I'm about to be 17

Actually yeah I do feel old

Thanks emanresu

@RadvylfPrograms you think that's bad?

Try being 20

Radvylf Programs

At least I'll be able to vote in the next election

So I can choose who ruins my country!

Or throw away my vote on someone who actually cares and pretend I'm doing the right thing

2:55 AM

@RadvylfPrograms as you get older, this feels more and more true yet is expected more and more

Now I feel old as well. I was 11 when it started

Radvylf Programs

Can't wait for when I'm 60 and my iike, grandkids or students or whatever, will be like "tell us what it was like when COVID was new! did you really have no toilet paper? what were the lockdowns like? was that before the god-empress of North America and Moldova took control?"

I have a txt file saved on my computer with predictions. I won't open it until 2050, by which time I'll have forgotten most of them (I can only remember a few right now anyway). I wonder how many will be true.

I wonder if your hard drive will even work in 2050.

Radvylf Programs

Well anyway, g'night o/

o/

9 hours later…

11:54 AM

@emanresuA i absoluely dont feel as mature as i should be

My parents are partly to blame for never letting me do myself but also I’m just that kind of person ig

I’m trying to change that now tho, gonna get a job and a life

At least temporarily

Maybe after college some rich friend gives me shares in their startup so i become a megahazillionaire and never need a job or social interaction ever again :p

*My parents are partly to blame for never letting me do things myself

Frick this 2min edit limit

@forest it’s funny but not very helpful. The error alone won’t tell you need to run as root unless you google it

Could easily be modified to have both the cretin joke and a more helpful message underneath it though

@lyxal how does it feel being a boomer?

I bet you get slightly better auto insurance rates lol

over here rental cars are more expensive if you’re 18-19

I don't drive

so I wouldn't know :p

Oh yeah i forgot

Is public transportation actually usable in nsw or wherever you live?

yes

Here it takes hours with buses and trains when a car would take minutes

Nice

2 hours later…

1:46 PM

potential name idea: Vote to Chat (acronym: VTC)

2:08 PM

That won't cause any confusion +1

2 hours later…

Radvylf Programs

4:03 PM

Fun fact: In a list of around 125k english words, there are as many as 22k unique syllables

I wonder how understandable English would be if you restricted it to a few hundred syllables

Probably a lot more (if people were learned the new English too)

Radvylf Programs

I've been using a custom alphabet I made to take notes recently, considering trying a syllabic writing system

Well, it's more of an abugida, sort of

user image

This is what it looks like, though these aren't notes

Is this like a custom shorthand?

Radvylf Programs

More like longhand. I write too quickly, so I can't actually read any of my notes. This forces me to slow down.

It represents two or three phonemes with each symbol, a bit less ambiguously than English, but it fits everything into ten consonants and a few vowel marking things. In theory if I get faster at writing in this, it'll be easier to distinguish symbols from one another than with English.

The only ones I'm worried about are the tack things.

I'm interested in something syllabic, since the information density of this is basically the same as that of English

2 hours later…

5:57 PM

@RadvylfPrograms amazing

i've developed my own syllabic writing system for kind of similar reasons

I want a language to go with it

so I can journal without anyone reading my journal :P

in The Nineteenth Byte, 4 hours ago, by Radvylf Programs

if people will get enjoyment out of your blurry cat pics, I say post 'em :p

literall just took one. Any excuse will do for me to post it so

user image

Radvylf Programs

Aww it blurry :3

#yesimstillusingachromebook

6:21 PM

user image

5 hours later…

11:38 PM

in The Nineteenth Byte, 5 hours ago, by caird coinheringaahing

Currently, I think we're in a bit of a weird position with this room, where people want to discuss things they're interested in, but potentially hold off from doing so because they don't want to be declared "off-topic" and have to move. I've said for multiple conversations that weren't necessarily about code golf/the site, but were absolutely not noise, that they're fine in this room

@cairdcoinheringaahing I do agree

Hell, that even happened with my replying to the message

Hence why I mentioned it here

But yeah, I do feel that people are a little more hesitant to discuss anything

However, I believe that the experience of knowing what strict on-topic is could help guide future self-control of noise

Radvylf Programs

Well I am camping, for the last time

Unrelated String

xd

@RadvylfPrograms last time?

That sounds ominous

Are you going to get mauled by a bear lol

Unrelated String

i assume he's being forced to, hates it, and will not be forced to in the future

Radvylf Programs

11:50 PM

On the contrary, I hate camping. It as un-ominous as it gets.

But you can't be sure you'll never go camping again

Radvylf Programs

I can, at least for the next 11 years

I hate camping and thought I would never do it after elementary school, and I was just forced to before college

> lyxal: If I fall down these stairs, I'm just going to lay down and accept my fate.

@RadvylfPrograms Why the number 11?

@emanresuA That doesn't sound like lyxal tbh

11:52 PM

Police Officer: You have the right to remain silent.
lyxal: I choose to waive that right!
lyxal: *screaming*

Better?

Absolutely

radvylf: Why would you give a knife to lyxal?!
emanresu, shrugging: lyxal felt unsafe.
radvylf: Now I feel unsafe!
emanresu: I’m sorry…
emanresu: Would you like a knife?

I would like a knife too

lyxal: user and I were crossing the street, and this man drove by and honked at us.
radvylf: What did you do?
lyxal: They chased him to the next red light, and reached into his window, and-
user: *walking in* Who wants a steering wheel?

I wouldn't do that but I could believe lyxal or radvylf could :P

11:56 PM

user: What are you two arguing about this time?
emanresu: They’re always using common phrases incorrectly!
lyxal: Cry me a table, emanresu.

radvylf: What did you two do?
lyxal:
emanresu:
radvylf: You’re not in trouble, I just need to know if I have to lie to the police again or not.

lyxal, radvylf, and emanresu are sitting on a bench
user: Why do you guys look so sad?
lyxal: Sit down with us so we can tell you.
*user sits down*
radvylf: The bench is freshly painted.

I do a very marginal amount of trolling

lyxal: Hah! 69! You know what that means?
radvylf: What?
emanresu: That you're a child.
user: HOW'D YOU GUESS MY IQ!?

lyxal: Everyone, synchronize your watches.
radvylf: I don’t know how to do that.
emanresu: I don’t wear a watch.
user: Time is a construct.

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Sep '223

The Sand Trap

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