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00:00 - 22:0022:00 - 00:00

00:00
(oh, I had not realized that you were an epicurian Cerberus)
define frustration
And what do you mean by "overcoming biology"? And what by "overcoming evolution"?
not acting on instincts, being able of moral choices
@Tames No, the burden is on you, because you denied it!
e.g. Gandhi
As I said, dogs can not-act on instincts, unless you consider anything based on instinct + learning also instinct—in which case everything we do is also instinct.
00:03
frustration, for me, requires a conception of absence ("there is something missing"), i believe this can only happen with language
I'm not sure what that entails exactly. What tests could you apply to verify that an entity has this conception?
whichever test a human creates is already determined by his own conceptions, it is not possible to create a test based on how animals think, because we are not animals,
supposing you had a child raised by wolves and you asked him/her to design a test, would it be possible for him/her do it without language?
So you have no way of establishing whether an entity is frustrated, not even an hypothetical way?
any test would already be pre-defined by our conceptions in great extent. When you work with scientific research you see this all the time. First you may imagine what the possible answers are, and then you do the question
Of course: I am asking for a test to find out what your concept of "frustration" is exactly.
Because it is not entirely clear to me.
00:10
I don't understand why you require a test for a conception
you want me to prove that an animal cannot be frustrated?
I want to find out what you mean by the word "frustration", because we appear to mean different things.
Or perhaps not.
I don't know.
so tell me what you mean, you refused to do it
All right.
the thing is maybe this cannot be proved or disproved. For me it is like "how can you prove a plant is not happy?"
To me, it is an unfulfilled desire that causes a negative emotion.
Like anger, or sadness. Usually a combination.
00:13
this will never end. What is desire? what is anger-sadness?
You think about what you desire; you notice that you cannot fulfil it; and so you feel angry or sad.
I should say, in those terms, that an animal does not desires, it only "needs". Maybe you could talk about "deprivation" in this sense
Why needs? Isn't that a bit strong?
all of these are very strong terms for psychoanalysis, so it disturbs me a bit, but, sincerily, I'm not able to give you a precise psychoanalytic definition
remember our talk about needing a GSiii?
"you don't need it like you need oxygen"
What if a dog desires to fetch the stick that you threw. Does he really need it? Is that a transparent, common-sense way of using the word "need"?
00:17
"as much as you don't need a shower or a bed"
you don't need shower, you desire it
you don't need GSiii, you desire it
Need is relative.
It is a more complex word than desire.
even food for us becomes an object of desire, and not of need
we eat it because it is tasty, because it reminds us of something
why is need relative?
"Need" implies a purpose that cannot be achieved without a certain something.
You always need something for some other thing.
You need air to live.
exactly
You need a smartphone to consult Wikipedia on the train.
Whereas desire is simpler.
00:19
why do you "need" to consult wiki on the train?
It just means that you want something, whether it is a means to an end, or an end in itself.
@Tames You may not need to do so at all. But you need a smartphone if you want to do that.
So I would rather not use "need" in the context of frustration.
Desire is a simpler concept in this situation, I think.
you don't need to consult wiki on a train, even in the case someone is pointing a gun to you head and requiring a definition so that he will not kill you (you may refuse on moral principles)
you are talking about a material limitation, not the need for the action
moving it
I disagree.
If you need to consult Wiki for some ulterior end, then you need it.
what if you don't consult wiki? what will happen?
you want it, but you may think of it as a need
an obligation
Then the end of consulting Wikipedia will not be fulfilled, which is survival.
As I said, "need" is relative. You either posit an ulterior end or not; if not, then you don't need it; if you do, then you need it.
00:24
and what is desire to you?
It only makes sense to use the word "need" without stating the end if it is clear from context.
A desire is simply wanting something. Like wanting to breathe when you're out of air, or wanting a smartphone because it seems like fun.
for you breathing and having a smartphone are on the same level?? gzzz
you really really want one, don't you?
lol
Who said that?
There are weak and strong desires.
Of course.
hahaah
which is the weak and which is the strong in this case?
hahah
I would rather choke than not having this smartphone, obviously.
00:28
are you mad at me?
sorry for the joke
No, I was just trying to joke along.
Which apparently didn't work very well...
It was funny, but I worried a bit that I might have exagerated
your example did not make sense to me, putting breathing and wanting a smartphone in the same case
Why not?
Accidental v. essential properties.
Wanting something is an essential property of desire.
but do you think that saying "I want" is different from saying "I desire"?
Wanting it strongly is an accidental property of my desire for air, but it is not essential, and so other desires may be weak.
@Tames No.
Not in the present context.
00:34
if they are not different one cannot define the other
it would be only a tautology
It was meant as an explanation, not a definition.
I can try to further analyse desire/wanting if you like?
only if you desire to do so
I think I may agree with you, that someone may desire air,
in the same sense that humans don't eat only because of biological needs
I hope you are not angry at me, really. I feel silly -_-
Of course not!
Suppose there is an action or thing X. When a certain animal has X in mind, which could be by imagining it or looking at it or whatever, it gets a positive emotional impulse. Under certain circumstances, it will act in ways that make it more probable for X to come about, like moving closer to X, or simply starting to do X, or whatever. If an animal and a certain object or action are accurately described by the previous sentences, it seems reasonable to say that the animal desires x.
It desires X in some way and to some degree.
why would the animal get a positive impulse when looking at X?
and why do you say that the animal desires X instead of saying it needs X?
00:49
@Tames There could be countless causes.
@Tames Because, as I said, need is a more restricted concept.
what would be your description on animal needs X, in those terms?
And actually need and desire don't completely overlap either way.
there's a problem here.. because for me desire is restricted to human beings, and maybe you are using the word with a different value
Suppose X. Suppose there is a certain end Y that either I posit for the animal, like the survival of the animal, or a comfortable nest. Then suppose that Y cannot be achieved without X: in that case, the animal needs X for Y. If we do not explicitly describe what the end is, and we still say "the animal needs X", then there must be an implicit end Y that is clear to the listener, or the statement "the animal needs X" is ambiguous.
@Tames Haha.
@Tames Why is it restricted to human beings? And, if it is, can you then give me a word that describes the situation I gave above, the first one with X and the animal?
I'm not sure I'm capable of a definition.. I'd say that an animal only has needs, defined by instincts. A human desires, this is related to symbolic values, you desire a smartphone because it symbolizes freedom, fun, etc; but a dog does not desire food, it does not choose to eat or not (even when not eating some food, it is because of conditioning)
01:02
Right, well, the word desire can be used in different ways.
as I said, it is a key term for psychoanalysis
In philosophy, it is often used in the way I used it, the general sense; as a more self-conscious, rational term, I suppose it can also be used and is so used. But I wanted the most general, simple sense.
Mainly for lack of a better word.
Need does not fit the bill.
Because it implies an external end: what which you need is not the end of the needing.
While philosophical desire or wanting or whatever does not.
One can strive after an end or a means.
But I have to go to bed, alas.
Maybe the term "reaction" could be useful? if you throw a ball to a dog, it may catch it, it is not a need as eating or breathing
Early day tomorrow.
ok... I should go too
are you a teacher?
01:06
A reaction is a kind of action: a (philosophical) desire is an emotion, not an action.
I tutor children, yes.
children?? nice!
Which is what I have to do tomorrow morning.
So happy pondering!
I was supposed to be in bed an hour ago.
:)
Bye!
bye, good night Cerb..
 
2 hours later…
03:02
hello world
well
hhmmm
fuck what can i talk about
you know, i read the blackwell textbooks on phonology and phonetics
but i still dont think i really understand the phoneme
what is a phoneme?
is it a scientific hypothesis merely extending the empirical allophone or does it have an attested psychological reality?
 
8 hours later…
11:02
@Tames Every room is public here. The only private ones are for moderation use. I can make them (no I won't make one). :D
@taylor Look at this:
1
Q: Definition(s) of phoneme

Kamil S.What different definitions of phoneme do you know? Please note that I'm not asking for an explanation of what phoneme is but rather for professional definitions. I'm interested in how the issue is tackled in different phonological theories. Edit: It sure is very interesting (no irony) to see ho...

Hey @Cerberus
What's up?
By the way, @Tames I see you're becoming more and more a regular! :D
Ok I'm off for a while, but zo terug!
 
1 hour later…
12:08
Hey @Cerberus
Hey @OtavioMacedo
What's up?
Tutto bene?
Do you think this question would be on topic here?
6
Q: The effects of bilingualism on colour perception

Artem KaznatcheevPeltola et al. (2012) showed that there are two types of bilinguals. Balanced bilinguals mix their two languages and are effected by linguistic categories from both. Dominant bilinguals seem to switch on the categories of the language they are using, and suppress the categories of the languag...

@Alenanno Molto bene!
Well, I'm not sure it matters.. It's at +6 and 2 faves. :P
But no answers hehe
12:25
Uhm...
I mean, we could suggest that the OP post it here, maybe with a stronger focus on the linguistic part
I'd like to know the community opinion on it, I'm personally not 100% sure. :P
@OtavioMacedo What do you think?
Let's give it some time...
Ok my colleague!
:D
If nobody answers it in a few days, I will drop a comment there ;-)
12:35
Ok! I agree! :)
Come sta il tempo in Sardinia?
Caldo?
Ops, Sardegna
Oh, non sono in Sardegna per ora, ma sì, fa caldo! Dappertutto!
Fa caldo*
:D
E da te?
Ah, qui fa freddo.
Dove sta @Gigili?
È un po' que non le vedo.
(come se dice "by the way" in italiano?)
che*
non la* vedo
Uhm
"Ad ogni modo", "comunque"
Puoi usare questo sito, è molto buono:
Stacco per un po'... ci sentiamo dopo :)
12:55
Va bene :-)
 
1 hour later…
14:00
@OtavioMacedo Rieccomi!
Tu usi Dropbox?
Non sempre... Quando ne ho bisogno :D
Lo usi più di me mi sa
:D
che significa "mi sa"?
14:14
I knew you would ask
lol
It's like "I suppose/it feels like so"
But it shows more self-confidence than
"I suppose"
È una espressione idiomatica?
It depends on the situation though
È colloquiale/informale
@OtavioMacedo Will you buy me this car?
Ahah
It's old!
È un Fiat 500?
14:21
No
112 Autobianchi :)
Questa è la vecchia 500
14:32
I love this movie.
@Alenanno A classic!
When he says "Oh man, I shot Marvin in the face!"
haha
 
6 hours later…
20:55
@Cerberus Who are you supporting?
:D
Hi!
Who am I supporting?
You?
Whom else?
The European match...
:D
Who would you choose
between
Portugal and Spain?
Ehh to be honest I have no preference.
I guess Spain, because they are in more trouble due to the economic crisis.
I mean, Portugal is already under the wings of the EU.
So it's safe enough now.
Ahah you choose for that I see. :D
Hey @Tames
hi there @Alenanno
hi @Cerberus
21:03
What's up?
not much! I've just arrived from my psychoanalysis session. Always a bit traumatic, but good
You're the patient?
yes
If I'm not too intrusive
Oh...
I study psychoanalysis as well, I'll be an analyst someday
21:06
Oh!
Suddenly, I don't want to talk to you anymore. :P
ahahha just kidding
hahaha
I hear this often
hahah
Ahahah
people escaping
lol
Hello.
Why traumatic?
So serious, @Cerberus.
(wow rhyme)
21:08
because.. all those things that you wish you could forget, you must talk about them
the more you try to escape from them, the more they affect you, so you'd better face them
But it helps, no?
yes
but it is not pleasant. doing analysis is not fun
Uhm... I'm not an expert, but I suppose it depends if you're explicitly talking about something or not...
@Cerberus so how was your day? how was your class?
@Alenanno what do you mean?
@Tames For example, if the question is indirect, you might not realize where the analyst is aiming to.
So you talk "normally".
21:12
@Alenanno but it is up to you to chose the subject of the conversation... the analyst will only make some questions based on that... and s/he rarely speaks, really
@Tames Ah ok. Yes, you're right. :)
an as you are paying for the hour, you'd better chose wisely, not talking about superficial stuff
Of course. Yes, that would be a wise choice!
hahah
:D
And you want to be a general analyst?
21:14
I have a friend who pays very little for analysis... it is almost worthless. he always misses sessions, is never on time, and is always escaping from important matters
Or just for kids, for example?
Let's do analysis! I'll lay here on the sofa... You grab your notes!
:D
I'm very interested in working with kids, but there's not an specific instruction for this. But I'd work with all kinds of people
@Alenanno you sound so excited that I suppose you don't know what analysis is about lol
Ok. :) I've known someone, I don't remember who, who wanted to do this but with criminals. In prison I guess.
@Cerberus?
@Tames I've done it in high school (some classmates did too). This analyst came to school. I suppose it wasn't that professional.
21:18
@Alenanno must not be an easy task! Sometimes you just cannot handle some stuff, but sounds interesting anyway
@Alenanno why do you say it wasn't professional? was it for free?
@Tames I don't think we paid... It was a sort of temporary service in school.
@Cerberus is ignoring us. :P
@Alenanno unfortunately, usually free analysis doesn't work on our times
@Tames What do you mean?
@Alenanno because value is directly associated with money... if something is free, usually people don't make good use of it. it is a shame, of course. And analysis in special needs some form of commitment, otherwise it is useless.
the most common form of commitment in our age is paying
it is a form of recognition of the analyst, as well, something like "this guy knows something that I don't know, so I pay him"
otherwise he is just like some colleague
or worse... some relative
(usually a mother) lol
@Tames Well, if I did it now, I'd try to get something out of it. Even if it was free... :)
Mothers analyse very well lol
21:29
@Alenanno good for you! This does not happen very often.
You'll do it for me for free, right?
:D ahahah
@Alenanno oh, you smarty-pants
hahah
Do it! For the glory!
21:32
If you want to talk about something, be me guest. But I do not consider this a real analysis. Analysis takes a lot of time and frequency
I don't consider it analyses either... I was kind of joking. :D I'd do it if you were here (or I was there).
ok ;)
but you said you were afraid of psychoanalysts! you liar
I did?
Ah
when I said I would stop talking to you?
:D ahah
hahah
:D Admit it, you're secretly analyzing me.
21:36
there's never such thing as "I was just kidding" for a psychoanalyst lol
I'm not analyzing you, I'm just confronting you with you own lines lol
are you afraid yet?
hahah
Oh no no
I'm not. :D
I already know I'm weird.
:D
weird how?
In a good way, of course.
But it puts off some people, it seems.
For example...
I'm very out-going and talkative sometimes even at the beginning of some acquaintance. Some people don't like this much confidence or lack of coldness at the beginning.
is it so? where do you live?
what do they do that makes you think you are putting them off?
I live in Italy.
But I mean also in internet acquaintances
:)
21:43
what do they do that makes you feel weird?
No, it's not that.
I mean, some people don't like that you
don't live within the "social" rules.
I'm not saying in some extreme ways, of course.
you said... "I'm weird in a good way, it puts some people off, e.g. I'm very talkative, people are not expecting that"
which social rules are you breaking?
Being not too out-going at the beginning. If you meet someone new and that someone behaves as if you've known each other for years, how would you react?
It'd puzzle me too. But I'd understand it after 2 minutes.
do you mean that social rules imply that you should pretend something? like... "I have something to say, but I should pretend I don't"
Ok, I realize I sound like someone crazy right now
:D
Basically
21:46
no, I see your point. I'm not sure about what is bothering you
I'm very sociable and out-going. Some people don't like it. Just that. :D
:)
do you have many friends?
Real friends?
That's hard to say...
what do you mean "real"?
Not just acquaintances.
21:47
I see.
If you get what I mean. :)
do you think that the fact that you have acquaintances but not real friends is related to you character?
No
:D
You're talking like an analyst :P
ahahah
no I'm not! I'm talking too much for an analyst
hahah
I mean how you formulate questions.
:D
21:50
you seem to be ok, what would you want analysis for?
It's not that I want it... But I'm curious to see what would come out of it.
Not "YAY CURIOUS"
I know it's not like going to a park.
If you do not have complaints, it is unlikely that it will give you many insights
What made you interest in this, if it's not private?
and it is unlikely that you'd see an analyst if you had to pay for it, you would only do it for free, isn't it so?
I guess I'm a troubled person, I've been depressed since childhood, I guess I'm always trying to understand how I managed to survive. It turns out I'm very interested in understanding how people think, in general.
each person is a universe
it amazes me
21:55
I've always been interested in many things... but psychology and psychoanalysis specially seems to deal with the most complex of all possible objects
everything else seems so pale next to that
and it has to do with all the other fields of knowledge, because there's always a person behind those thoughts
I love it.. and I can't live appart from that... I'm always paying attention to what people say, how and when they say it.. you begin to find meaning behind the simplest things
you feel more alive, it is almost like living in wonderland
nothing is certain
I agree
with everything you said
:D
:)
what do you do in life? study... work?
I don't work yet, unfortunately...
I study Languages. :)
Also out of the academic field.
which languages do you study?
how old are you?
00:00 - 22:0022:00 - 00:00

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