@fredsbend : If you have suggestions as to how I can make it better I'm all ears. Also, if you have questions I will do my best to answer them.

@user9712 I think you're fine. As far as I'm concerned, we just have just have such a fundamental disagreement on things.

@user9712 Not sure where you are going with this. The heart is not perfectly symmetrical. We only have one liver, one pancreas, one stomach, etc. The intestines are far from symmetrical. I'm not sure, but I would bet your painting that lungs, etc being near perfect 3D mirror images is exaggerated at best.

@user9712 This is called personification. Cells are essentially a group of complex chemical reactions. If you have an upper level understanding of Chemistry then this is obvious. Cells don't do anything. They are a group of chemicals that react with a certain level of predictability.

@user9712 DNA is not useless without a cell. Neither is RNA. There is a body of evidence that indicates DNA and RNA act as replicating cells under the right conditions. Again, a collection of chemical reactions. No personification here. There is no "need" or "want". Just Chemistry.

@user9712 This actually supports neither side. Adaptation models for Evolution predict exactly this. They predict that successful life forms are well suited for their environments. Creationism predicts that God would create a suitable environment for the lifeforms.

@fredsbend : Well, disagreements I can take :)

@user9712 Cells do not have the same limits. In this respect, it is nonsense to say they have limits at all. A cell does not do anything. A cell does not build the body. The collection of chemical reactions come together in a predictable way to make more cells which react in a macro sense to build tissues, organs, organ systems, and finally the organism. Chemistry. It is all predicable, pure science, Chemistry. Some have called Biology "applied Chemistry." To an extent, that is accurate.

@fredsbend Biology, in essence, is the study of life. Calling it "applied Chemistry" just obfuscates the meaning.

@fredsbend : Actually, the fact that organs are not lined up in some kind of extruded fashion is another indication that Evolution is false. Have you ever studied engineering? Have you ever tried to design something even a little complicated with say several moving parts? Its harder than it looks. It took centeries for humans to even begin to understand more than very basic things about the human body and other animals.

The human body is magnitudes more complicated than building say a space shuttle. Imagine, some 4 or 5 year olds building one. It took many, many ears, a huge amount of intelligence, knowledge, underdtanding, time & energy to even get close to building such a complicated machine. So either a cell or group of cells has a hidden intelligence far beyond our capabilities, who simehow figured out some amazing things about life or someone of far greater intelligence than man designed it all.

Its one or the other. Jet engines, that I used to build are amazing. However, they are exceedingly complicated. Do you have any idea what wnnt into designing and creating such a machine?

@user9712 Does it take intelligence for water to freeze? Does it take intelligence for wood to burn? That happens because of Chemistry. There is no personification here. But that is what you are doing. Read my other messages.

@user9712 Arguing a dichotomy is almost always a logical fallacy.

Two lungs, kjdneys, ears, etc. are not copies. Think about this very carefully. Like I said, if there is a house on 1 side of the road & you want to build a mirror image house on the other side, you must 1st learn all about the house on the other side & all about how its sytems are set up & how they work & all about the materials that were used or you will never succeed at building a mirror image house. For sure, w/o having intelligence & the ability to use it, you won't be able to do it.

@user9712 You keep assuming that Chemistry taking place requires intelligence.

@fredsbend : A level of predictability does not rise to the level of ability of chemical action & reaction to accompish designing & producing many millions of such diverse species found in nature, in the absense of having the intelligence & knowledge to do so. Again, none of these species ever existed before. So either chemical reactions carry hidden super intelligence or Ev is a baldliaced lie. Or cells are super geniuses & man's intelligence is inferior.

@user9712 I'm not arguing for Evolution. I'm arguing against the logic of your statements.

@fredsbend : Its not the chemistry itself. Its the huge gap between random chance thats being relied on as haviong the ability to to rise to the level of producing anything as complicated as what it would take to make millions upon millions of extremely diverse species. The logic is that w/o incredible intelligence, knowledge & the ability to fully understand what to do with it 1 can't create a simple machine let alone millions of systems

that are present in the millions of species found in nature. Just to build a car (& even that is much less complicated than many species are) takes a huge amount of intelligence, knowledge along with the ability to use it. Otherwise, we would still be walking everywhere or just continuing to just using horses to get around. Do you see what is missing here?

@fredsbend : DNA has no useful purpose w/o a cell. DNA is needed to construct a cell & is an integral part in all its functions. For DNA to be able to do this it means that all the code had to exist 1st (can't happen w/o intelligence & knowledge of the purpose for a cell & the same regsrding all its functions & structure which had to be present BEFORE the cell could be contructed. Cells don't do anything -thats the point.

@fredsbend : Except 1 major stumbling block is that actual adaptation only occures within an existing body type (for a specific species). That is a barrier that can't be crossed. We have never observed a crossover to a new or different species body type. If there were only 4 or 5 body types in existence I'd be more inclined to at least conside evolution as a cause. When multiplied by millions =impossible odds.

As for God making suitable envirnments. He can make anything He wants any way He wants. I think its more incredible that God made a balanced Ecosystem (except for man) with its many envirnments along with millions of species that can live in varied environments. Again, it could not be dome w/o "intelligence", the operative word.

@fredsbend : Again, there is a huge gap btwn a chem action for water freezing or wood burting & what it would take to assemble right chemistry to make & operate even 1 cell let alone the complicated processes involved in making many millions of extremely diverse species (especially for higher life forms).

@fredsbend : Perhaps, for those whom want to keep God out of the equation, it will be a logical fallacy. However, I foud out that God actually exists & He is the only 1 that counts. Only 1 God can occupy infinity & that God is the God of Israel. As long as 1 infinity exists no other can exist & 2 Gods can't occupy the same infinity.