← 53 messages moved from The Heap™ – Consultancy ©®

room topic changed to System Lords of the Internets: Side discussion from The Heap about Evan's Adventures (no tags)

WEEEEE

sup sup, just got the invite.

Yeah I thought about it and it seemed a good idea to have a dedicated room.

A heap of heapers.

Just a few from the main room to fill up the empty box.

Hannah The Great?

Moderators can already do anything they damn well please as usual. They don't need to be room owners as well.

There is a reason to sometimes add a mod as an RO as well, but I can't remember it right now.

Hannah and Cole can do that themselves if they like.

ah gotcha.

So anyway the idea is not that you can't chat in The Heap as well, it just seems like those that want to engage on Israel/Palestine/latest suspension news or whatever can come here.

It might or might not work out. I'm not known for having great ideas.

I'm cool with that.

Mostly I liked the idea of having a room named this way.

Feel free to suggest a better one, topic description, tags and whatnot.

I think the room owners can make that change if none of the mods is around.

"Israel is an Apartheid State" has a nice ring to it.

Hm 🤔

🤔

That did make me laugh btw

I assume you have a sense of humor, however limp.

I suppose another benefit is I can kick you from two rooms now.

Another room with "Israel is an Apartheid State", and you can have three!

I really wish I hadn't chosen the word "limp". I deserved what I got from that.

hahahahhahahahahaha

Yeah, I gotta say the first time I look at that I had a double take.

One never knows quite when a word has the same meaning internationally

It's a minefield

But I will take the L

Victory!

BTW usual chat rules apply here. We can arbitrarily kick you off the network for good at any time just because we can.

I know you're cool with that. See the past 11 years or so of history.

I've always appreciated the lack of nonsense that comes with your ♦. It's probably so much less work then all the pretending too.

More seriously, it's probably best to avoid flags in here unless absolutely necessary and you really want to perform the Ancient Rite of Mass Smurf Summoning.

We got a Rob! Welcome to my channel. I promise not to ban Rob, or suspend him. Sounds like an okay mate to me.

@IsraelisanApartheidState idk maybe it's a cultural thing here. I have to work very hard to understand subtext as so commonly used in other countries. I very much prefer people speak plainly (but not rudely ofc).

I couldn't believe it yesterday when I checked and there were 24 mods on SO now.

Yeah, when you get a message you're banned you can see all their names (I think).

But then when you respond to it, you can no longer see their names.

Then it just becomes "Regards, Stack Overflow Moderation Team"

Oh that's news to me about seeing all the names. I thought the whole thing was just "Chur, Mod Team" these days.

Noap

Oh yeah, right at the bottom. Never noticed that.

That's what I got for talking about politics in a channel where politics were said to be on top explicitly.

Rory said antizionism is "pretty much" antisemitism.

I wrote team@stackexchange.com directly about that.

I read the transcript yesterday. Seems to be going ok more recently in chat since you're talking pretty much exclusively about InfoSec now. Reasonably wild bunch in that room though eh.

Was quite amusing reading about the user that changed their name to X is 12 or something as a joke and it backfired

There were certainly some strong views expressed on the Israel/Palestine topic by a number of people.

Yeah, not all me but the important thing there is that the conversation was entirely agreeable without any disagreement prior to me getting banned. The mods introduced the problem.

(this is a message after you respond to modmail)

And you have no my From/To. =(

Ah yeah I see.

Not that it really matters because we can always see who the moderators are on any site.

The important change was not to single any one out.

@PaulWhite Yeah privatise profits, socialise losses. Works fine at any income level, even when the income is unicorn points.

It's a tough call from a transparency point of view, but it's hard to argue against it when an unpaid volunteer experienced serious real-life stalking. That's really not something any of us should have to put with.

@mustaccio That's an interesting point of view.

Nicely phrased.

I've been around. Every day I see fewer and fewer hills to die on.

I'd rather die on my couch

Amen

Which isn't to say I don't care about things. I do. The world needs a lot of work to get to a decent state.

It's getting better.

=) Optimism++

But perspective and context are important. Like, moving back to here, it was a shame to lose so many longstanding contributors over the Monica issues, but I understand their reasoning. There are plenty of places to contribute and socialize or whatever on the internet.

@IsraelisanApartheidState Well yes things probably are at a macro level. There are things to worry about too though.

For example, I'm embarrassed to say we have people without a warm, dry place to sleep in NZ and not always enough food to eat.

shout out to FNB - NZ

FNB?

foodnotbombs.net/new_zealand.html

Oh right.

Well we don't have much of a military, but it would be nice e.g. if we were to trial something like a universal basic income.

Nothing too flash, just enough that getting a job as well gives you a decent standard of living.

Plus we should build some damned housing on all this land we have.

I think we reached #1 on some housing unaffordability index recently.

You just can't make society work with median incomes around 60K and average house prices close to $1M

Everywhere has their problems of course.

And it doesn't compare with actual poverty, war, tyranny etc.

But still.

Yea, I agree with all that and income inequality is a huge problem.

And getting worse. As the world seems to become ever more polarized about everything

But I feel like if not drone bombing children with laser-guided missiles can't get resolved, that stuff will be a lot harder. But luckily, that's getting resolved!

It's a start for sure.

And on the upside as you say, things in general are getting better over time.

And civilization is relatively new.

It just feels a little unstable at the moment.

Well income inequality is getting worse over time, so that stuff is getting worse too.

So it's not all roses.

Yeah well I don't know why anyone needs personal wealth in excess of a few tens of millions.

But hopefully we can avoid major wars and violent death, and then you know our dear spectre will get sick of haunting Europe and give America and NZ some love..

It's a nice idea

And hey it's not so bad -- the people themselves are, by and large, lovely and decent

Spectre has been hard at work.

Unless you put them behind the wheel of a car I suppose

Remember in 2017 PostgreSQL had 0 DBMS of the Year awards. Now four years later and it has 3!

Well just look at all that progress 😀

Coincidence that I took up the cause of PostgreSQL on this site in 2017?

It's a very decent database, especially at the language level.

Not at all.

@IsraelisanApartheidState Total coincidence.

You can't beat the price I guess. It does have some work to do in some areas.

Like all of them I guess.

@IsraelisanApartheidState Ok I cannot resist, who or what is Spectre

Assuming you're not referring to James Bond

oh really... let me introduce you to your best friend. The spectre that haunts Europe!

marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/communist-manifesto/…

Oh lawd ok I'll click

From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs

No hunger, housing for all.

Ah yeah of course. Do you know I don't think I have ever read the whole thing. I shall do so.

It's short.

@PaulWhite Optimism++

Clearly we have different ideas of short. I finished Ch. 1 and am now going to make some soup.

@mustaccio I am by nature, an optimist. To the point of naivete on occasion, I'm sure.

Aren't we all. Unfortunately our optimisms all point in different directions. Or is it rockets...

@PaulWhite Well, it is still remarkably short for propaganda. ;)

It's also far less useful then Marx's other works. And other communist works.

Manning needs to reform their MEAP program.

Rust in Action is on version 16. But the last version was done over 2 months ago. If you're taking two months off on a tech book, there is probably something suspect happening.

Rust Web Development is a MEAP "version 1" includes like 50 pages most of which isn't about web dev

@PaulWhite you got quoted.

@IsraelisanApartheidState How exciting! Which part is mine and to what does it link?

> But we will not tolerate your deliberate attempts to argue this here in bad faith (something a moderator friendlier to your cause noted).

Ah yes wise words indeed.

Finished Ch. 3 btw.

I wonder how they know when someone is arguing something in bad faith.

Anyway, that seems to be that.

I like how they link to a user last seen in 2013 as someone who is doing it right! If only I could be more like this guy who has one answer. stackoverflow.com/users/2725611/palestinian?tab=topactivity

then it's a done deal

Does your access of that web archive link show your answer?

The version it shows me is from 9 March 2021

The link itself suggests there should be a version from 30 May 2021

I have no idea what's happening there. That link was working though, clearly.

Could be eventual consistency at work as you say

I don't even remember if I saw it earlier when I visited the link

Screenshot of your answer? You don't have to share it if you don't want to ofc

Oh yes I remember now, thanks.

50,00 words of propaganda must have overflowed my buffer

Buffer Overflow sounds like a better QA site.

let's make it happen.

Huh. I'm not sure which formatting is worse.

So what's the plan for a user name then? Or are you going to wait until you hear back from TPTB?

There is stackexchange.com/users/42701/israel-is-an-apartheid-state

But user157251 pretty much everywhere else

That's not a great handle

The BDS logo avatar seems to be pretty much universally-accepted

You might need to think of something along the lines of Evan Carroll supports Palestine for the user name

Boycott Apartheid

Interesting

Name one person that would disagree with Boycotting Apartheid?

Well no one I guess. OTOH there is only one arguable example of apartheid in the world at the moment so it's not really so very far removed from the current name. I doubt the people that objected to IiaAS would find it to be the right side of the line. They seem to be looking for positivity.

Together We Can End Apartheid

@PaulWhite Another interesting point is when suspended we can not edit our profile name.

So how do I go about notifying StackOverflow how I wish to be attributed?

contact us 😀😀😀

@IsraelisanApartheidState Well yeah that makes sense if you think about it

Suspended users would tend not to choose great names

That's still not a right they can revoke.

Well no but they can introduce administrative delays. One can only change name once every 30 days (I think) without trickery.

@IsraelisanApartheidState Maybe slightly better but I can still see people thinking that is negative, and "end" has decidedly more than one meaning. Remember, some are not currently disposed toward a charitable assessment of your motivations.

Boycott Divest Sanction might work? Not great maybe.

Doesn't really add much to the avatar.

The thing you're up against here is the view that you are trying to get as close as possible to the line in order to "troll" the network.

It's only trolling if you're really psychotic.

🤷‍♂️

I mean, I have a desired pseudonym. They clearly don't want that pseudonym, and they also don't want to tell me what is acceptable and what is not. They won't let me ask either. And they don't want to be part of a solution.

So how do they expect that to go down.

I think they're pretty happy with user157251 tbf

right, but that's not why I contributed 2,000 answers.

I'm sure they'd be happy if it was CC-ZERO instead of CC BY-SA

Yeah I get that.

But it's not.

I got bored of pings from Law so donated my answer under CW and deleted my profile.

hahhahaha

It's not like I plan to contribute there long term.

Well goodness knows I get enough inbox as it is

But I refer to that because I really do believe CC BY-SA allows them to simply use an id and link to your profile (and maybe even a link from there to your own statements). So, if they're going to play hard ball on this, you'll need to compromise pretty hard (as a show of good faith if nothing else) or hire a lawyer.

Now that's not a great outcome from your point of view, but hey you tried. Life is unfair, so why should SE Inc. be any different. There are bigger inequities in the world e.g. in the Middle East somewhere IIRC.

Quitter mentality.

Long game.

Or hey you could just pursue it as hard as possible and see how long it takes for a network suspension to come down.

I have no inside knowledge about that btw, I'm just speculating.

IiaAS isn't going to live forever on chat either. Eventually enough people will flag it, or TPTB will simply decide that it's not OK and just reset it. I went out on a bit of a limb once but I'm not nailing anything to a wooden pole over this, limp or not.

It sucks that SE chat covers so many sites with a single profile.

We're talking about CC BY-SA, you know what else is CC BY-SA... The chat logs for the TL!

=P

To Wikileaks!!

YES.

Please see previous comment involving nails.

I wonder if chat really is under CC BY-SA. That's an interesting point.

Ah yeah no that would all be covered by the mod agreement I bet.

You know what would be a violation of CC-BY-SA. To not give me the logs in TL and to quote me.

That's a clear violation of Share Alike.

wat

oh ha ha ok

> You may not offer or impose any additional or different terms or conditions on, or apply any Effective Technological Measures to, Adapted Material that restrict exercise of the rights granted under the Adapter's License You apply.

Ie, they're mod agreement is crap that violates my license agreement.

Oh I thought you meant SA would mean I have to share, literally that

That's not going to help your cause you know

According to them, it's a lost case.

No I mean your future on the network as a whole

I doubt they honestly care about a license question.

especially one that doesn't name the site.

Yeah it's the pattern of questions that's going to cook you

Anyway it's your account. I'm just offering free advice here.

On the question itself, there's no way CC overrides a separate legal contract. I mean someone could share that info in accordance with the CC licence, but the other legal contract would also apply, with consequences.

No moderator would anyway, from an ethical point of view.

Unless it was a Snowden-like situation maybe but the CIA doesn't chat much on SE.

I don't doubt that no moderator would. Regardless.

Especially here.

I don't recall seeing anything really about the licence for chat. I guess it's just generically covered by the ToS.

But I do question whether or not you can impose more restrictions then the license itself offers. I mean the idea of copy-left is entirely circumvented when you can share copy-left material with the clause "you can't copy this."

I guess. Maybe? I dunno.

Ahhh!

I see what SE did.

This makes sense now.

Do go on

I deleted the question

You agree that any and all content, including without limitation any and all text, graphics, logos, tools, photographs, images, illustrations, software or source code, audio and video, animations, and product feedback (collectively, “Content”) that you provide to the public Network (collectively, “Subscriber Content”), is perpetually and irrevocably licensed to Stack Overflow on a worldwide, royalty-free, non-exclusive basis pursuant to Creative Commons licensing terms (CC BY-SA 4.0)

COMMA

, and you grant Stack Overflow the perpetual and irrevocable right and license to access, use, process, copy, distribute, export, display and to commercially exploit such Subscriber Content, even if such Subscriber Content has been contributed and subsequently removed by you as reasonably necessary to, for example (without limitation):

So essentially StackExchange themselves are not using the content under CC BY-SA. They have a dual license on all contributions that allows them "license to access, use, process, copy, distribute, export, display and to commercially exploit"

ooo

good spot

That's also kind of horse shit. Because StackExchange could just drop the CC BY-SA license entirely at any point in time.

Well yes but that would only affect new content

Oh I see

Not usefully.

Because they'd never have to tell you what content is new.

They'd have to tell me I was no longer licencing them under CC

So I could choose not to contribute anything new

I wonder what happens if you can not grant "StackOverflow the perpetual and irrevocable right and license to access, use, process, copy, distribute, export, display and to commercially exploit such Subscriber Content"

As in, if I find CC BY-SA content elsewhere can I share it here?

Well that is all fine and good under CC BY-SA. The Q & A work is a collaboration under that licence

You don't have the option not to under the ToS

Sure, but I can copy-and-paste and attribute work I didn't create that is CC-BY-SA, such as work provided by Wikipedia

But I can not grant the license requested by SE.

SE don't enforce licences or copyright for anyone else. They respond to takedown notices of course

> We do not ever claim ownership of any user contributions, nor would we ever want to claim ownership of them (because that could remove some of our legal protections such as DMCA liability).

(from meta.stackexchange.com/a/364900 CC BY-SA)

I mention that as a related point

If you share something you shouldn't that's on you

Anyway I need to go collect my wife. Back later

That's not what I'm saying. Generally speaking though that's also not true - afaik. If you have the right to "commercially exploit" a work you have the right of ownership, even if only co-ownership.

What I'm saying is lets say I downloaded a wikipedia article under CC BY-SA, and then distributed it to the TL.

Do you think then they could restrict your ability to redistribute that article with attribution?

You did not have the right to grant a "perpetual and irrevocable right and license to access, use, process, copy, distribute, export, display and to commercially exploit such Subscriber Content." You can only grant the rights afforded by CC BY-SA. So if a company imposes any additional restrictions on the BY-SA content (such as not sharing it with non-moderators), they're in violation of the BY-SA license.

anyway, heading home for the night. it's been a fun one.

Interesting read.

My I remark, that not many people chose to visit this room so far?

Well to be fair only a couple of people would have been notified and it is still Sunday or early Monday in some places?

I didn't know you were fair. I thought you were dark haired.

:-)

Increasingly grey in fact

But no, I don't expect this room to rival The Heap's immense popularity

But that's been going for more than a decade so

@PaulWhite That would take a bit

Right

Mind you even the heap goes through busy and quiet times

Depends what people have on their minds I guess

Just checked and it is 00:14 Monday on the west coast of the US

I fully expect this room to overtake The Heap. Especially if I stop using The Heap. Could you imagine Paul White having no one to ban, and nothing to talk about except SQL Server?

He deserves better.

#TheHeapv2

That's v considerate

msnbc.com/opinion/…

MSNBC? Is that one of those parody news sites?

No, actually. Better list then my own of Israeli politicians that have used the term.

That was a joke

Ah missed it, they usually are.

It's not a terrible article. I didn't get much more from it than the Wikipedia article Phil linked to earlier. Quite a few of the quotes are saying Israel might/will/could become apartheid. Some are quite old. That said, overall the point is well-taken.

yeah, the might/will/could thing is super annoying because (a) none of them actually specify what definition of apartheid their using there, and (b) none of them are actually speaking to what would be required for the criteria to be met.

The other caveat that stood out to me was "a form of".

Like idk words being "a form of" violence as people seem to say quite frequently these days

The problem with throwing words like "apartheid" around without a clear reference e.g. to SA or the international crime of that name, is it tends to dilute the impact of the word, which ought to be right at the top end of severity. See also "Nazi".

I agree fully. fyi.

The UN and Rome Statute are both good sources for a definition.

Those are the words I was failing to recall

Yeah, not defining it btw is something you only see with the apologists which must rely entirely on authority and argument by fiat.

@PaulWhite No they wouldn't dispute it.

@PaulWhite I mean let's remove the words from apartheid...

Huh well that's surprising for ex-PMs

@IsraelisanApartheidState The first one is good. Reading the second.

Or trying to. Goodness that's a horrible layout.

Yeah nah I can't leave that in the transcript. Fascist mod strikes again I know.

Can't leave what?

The "unspeakable evil" statement.

That second one seems to be using an older definition that only applied to racial groups. I'm pretty sure that was updated to be more applicable to the Palestinian situation. But as I said, this is pretty much all new to me, so I'm really just going from what I read on WP.

oh that...

The "unspeakable evil" bit is easy to defend. This whole argument from BDS is policy oriented. Find me where Israel even addresses this politically. They just pretend like these arguments aren't valid rather than even acknowledging them.

Find me 1 article by an Israeli apologist that states "Palestinians have equal rights" of which there are MANY, but that does not ignore the fact that non-Jews are denied a right of return.

Well the arguments are fine. The statement was just too close to implying the thing should not exist, which is too far, even though with explanation it could be defended.

I challenge anyone to defend granting one people a right based on their religion or ethnicity that is denied to other people of the same state.

No one actually defend that.

So what do you think the most likely long-term solution is to all this? Or is it even possible to say at this stage? Because that's the deeper issue beyond even what labels ought to be applied to any of the parties involved.

It's one of the most fundamental components of BDS, and yet everyone has to pretend like it doesn't exist and instead get upset because people identify it with whatever term is totally applicable for the purposes of identifying apartheid.

@PaulWhite A one state solution clear, what BDS advocates for.

So that would be a single state for everyone involved, with equal rights, and no particular state religion?

Exactly, it's a pretty easy concept right.

Indeed.

And I wouldn't defend a single deviation from it.

But the point is right now there are lots of deviations, and none of them are things people defend.

Because they're quite frankly unspeakable evils.

=)

Well that's fair enough

Sorry to be so ill-informed, but what is the sticking point for the Israelis? The secular part?

No doubt there are a huge number of sticking points I suppose.

Otherwise it wouldn't have gone on so long.

Well, it's not really about religion at all for the Israelis.

That's why someone like me -- who is a Jew by blood and culture -- but otherwise atheist, can get a birthright tour and an invitation to take someone's house.

It's more about ethnic cleansing, and simple right-wing nationalist aspirations.

I did watch an encouraging documentary once that showed Israelis and Palestinians living together somewhere and getting along with each other just fine. Of course I can't remember exactly where it was, but it was quite a refreshing take on it all. The people at all were critical of extreme points of view on all sides.

And no it wasn't You Don't Mess with the Zohan, it was a proper TV thing. Maybe RT.

Sure, I wouldn't advocate for a solution I didn't think was possible because either Jews or Muslims were so incapable of democracy they couldn't wrap their heads around it.

I saw someone talk about I think it was the Solomon solution where everyone is given a year to sort out a solution, otherwise the whole area is irradiated. They weren't serious of course, but it does have a certain appeal.

Obviously that's going to be a "sticky" thing for both parties but that is the least of the concerns.

And, at that, I can't imagine it's that hard to resolve that issue.

I'd have popped in here sooner, but I was asleep

In a fully democratic solution, would one "side" outnumber the other? Tyranny of the majority and all that?

@Philᵀᴹ Hey @Philᵀᴹ really being asleep is no excuse

@PaulWhite Of course, Muslims would have a majority. Who cares?

@IsraelisanApartheidState Well historically, minorities have not always been well-served by that

You can pretty much call for a vote on anything and get your way if you're in a solid majority

So there would need to be some checks and balances on that

It's not impossible of course. Other places have made it work

And yet we were one of the most antisemitic countries in the world. We turned Jews back from the Holocaust, and no one advocates for Jews needing their own state in the USA.

Some would say focussing too much on the crimes and mistakes of the past can prevent progress in the present

And it kinda depends how far back you want to go

I started reading something about the Ottoman Empire earlier but got called away

I remember thinking back in the 80s that the NI situation would never be resolved, but they did manage to make progress in the end

I'm just saying right now the status quo is nothing to defend. 63 children just died. How many minorities are terrorized like that every election cycle by a majority? And most of the countries in the middle east with a Muslim majority have strong minority populations. Jordan has Christians. Syria has Druze, and Christians. Iran has Jews. Lebanon has Jews, Druze, Christians. These countries during civil war have sectarian violence, but the base line is far better than Israel.

I don't see Iran drone bombing its Jews with laser-guided missiles.

youtube.com/results?search_query=iran+jews

@IsraelisanApartheidState That's a good point

Iran has a Jewish minority? Wow

You don't hear so much about that

Free to leave. Israel even provides special incentives.

They have representation, and autonomy.

They can even drink in Iran.

How interesting. Unfortunately I have to break at this important stage because dinner

Basically the only thing they can't do is marry Muslim women and participate in conversion of any sort. ;) Which is wrong, and messed up. But you know their kids aren't getting drone bombed, and their hospitals aren't destroyed.

cool cool, later.

huffpost.com/entry/naftali-bennett-kill-arabs_n_3670767

Charming ... that's the new PM

@IsraelisanApartheidState wow, such a great person. and obvs that's /sarcasm