Whlplash

Wezl

7:27 PM

nobody else take the first message

hyper-neutrino

what if I do it anyway

Wezl

too late :)

* befunge's g and p commands should probably not be added

user

I want to make a fungus pun but can' tthiink of one

hyper-neutrino

@Wezl i can technically move your message out of this room which puts mine at the top. :)

user

Would it be compiled to C or interpreted?

Wezl

7:29 PM

* most likely written in C

* could be compiled

hyper-neutrino

@user see, i can easily think of one, because i'm a fun guy :)

user

Poll: which language do you want it written and/or compiled in (unless interpreted)?

Redwolf Programs

C or Rust

Rust is good

Wezl

@user written in C because I know it

hyper-neutrino

brainf***

Wezl

7:30 PM

@RedwolfPrograms C is just generally more supported

user

Haskell is good too

Redwolf Programs

Yeah, and I guess Rust takes the fun stuff out of low level programming

Wezl

I've looked at rust but it's too complicated for my taste

@RedwolfPrograms :)

you mean the leaks?

Redwolf Programs

Yep, and the security holes

And the classic, Segmentation fault (core dumped)

Wezl

OTOH haskell might be ok if we have AOT compilation

hyper-neutrino

7:32 PM

i have never touched haskell before

but it looks cool

Wezl

it does but I have some problems with it

like the indentation

Redwolf Programs

I just downloaded GHC but I haven't learnt me a haskell for great good yet

user

@hyper-neutrino It is

Wezl

and most of all, I can't run it

user

:(

Wezl

7:32 PM

@RedwolfPrograms I highly suggest it, even though I don't like haskell that much

user

Can y'all do C++, at least?

C is kinda hard

Wezl

@user too complicated (I don't know enough of it)

Redwolf Programs

C++ is yucky

Wezl

I mean templates are cool

but ridiculous compared to like lisp

user

^

Templates are also useful

I'd suggest Scala 3 but y'all wouldn't like that

Wezl

7:34 PM

terralang.org

^ this is super cool

it's supposed to be as fast as C but with lua metaprogramming

Redwolf Programs

How about we write it in raw machine code like real programmers :p

Wezl

and it has tools for JIT-compilation built-in

user

Manual memory management ain't fun

Wezl

but I can't run it because LLVM isn't installed in the right directory or something

hyper-neutrino

write it in 10IPL

user

7:35 PM

Rust is cool because there's no GC and you don't have to manually delete/allocate stuff

Wezl

SML is another option, it has the advantages of Haskell but I can run it

Redwolf Programs

10IPL runs in Minecraft and allows self modifying code, so it's the obvious choice

Wezl

but also there's lot's I'd have to learn

* instructions will be 2 chars wide

user

@Wezl :(

Wezl

what's wrong?

user

7:37 PM

2 chars is too wide

1 char or bust

Wezl

but the possibilities

user

(just kidding)

Wezl

I hate befunge having v as a direction command

user

Do you know any more cool languages?

Wezl

@user lots lots lots lots lots

those are what I breathe

user

7:38 PM

@Wezl That could easily be replaced with a Unicode character

Wezl

@user worse

user

Why?

Oh it should be typeable

Wezl

it's hard to type

user

What to replace it with?

Wezl

there would be several prefixes

Redwolf Programs

7:39 PM

. or , maybe?

<,>^

Wezl

each command is prefix followed by opcode

so it would be a symbol, say %, so directions would be %^ %< %> %v

so v would still be used, but not by itself

user

Makes sense

Wezl

definitely open to suggestions btw

@user but what type of cool language

user

If/when you finish Whiplash and you want help with IDE support, I'd love to help out

Wezl

github.com/ErmineII?tab=stars

these are almost 100% "cool languages"

user

7:42 PM

I only recognize a few

Wezl

yeah they're ~~all~~ mostly obscure

but they bring unique things to the table, which I subsequently copy and hammer into my own

user

Wax looks kinda odd ngl

Wezl

it is

I might consider it as an alternative compilation target from one of my (multiple) languages

it's not quite as low-level as C so I'd still compile to C

user

Red and Rebol are kinda cool

Wezl

really cool but I can't run them :/

user

7:46 PM

Can you access a remote VM?

Wezl

maybe but it's too much trouble

user

What about repl.it? (although that just has mainstream languages)

Wezl

I can access openBSD pretty easily but it has many of the same problems

@user yeah and why would I use anything mainstream :)

user

:P

Redwolf Programs

Use v86 and run arch or debian in your browser :p

Wezl

7:47 PM

so any more ideas for languages to write it in?

user

There are so many non-mainstream languages/technologies I want to try out but I can't because docs/ide support/whatever sucks :(

@Wezl Racket?

Wezl

You've made me realize we could just write a compiler and those could almost be ran on anything

@user good idea, I have that and it's somewhat working

any experience with it?

user

Nah

Wezl

I write a lot of stuff in tinyscheme, which is slow and weird and has a bad repl, but it's extremely fun

user

I would have had experience with it if I hadn't signed up for the "advanced" CS class at my school and learned Java

Wezl

7:49 PM

wow advanced

user

ikr

The Java stuff was insultingly low-level

Wezl

we could write it in scala and I'd learn new things

user

That'd be awesome

Wezl

but pretty complicated, I'm not sure I can run scala, and just moral objections against statements being newline-terminated

user

It'd be best if you chose a language that you're comfortable with, though

@Wezl I agree with the first, not so much with the second

Wezl

7:52 PM

scheme is super simple (modulo continuations), would recommend

user

@Wezl If it makes any difference, I've never found any ambiguity or confusion due to that when writing Scala code

Wezl

moral objections

user

@Wezl I've always wanted to try a lisp, this might be a good opportunity to

@Wezl ...ok

Wezl

let's concurrently write an implementation in the language we're writing, so it remains usable

btw I've used "we" too many times for you to opt out :)

user

That'd require a well-written spec first

@Wezl ლ(ಠ益ಠლ)

@user (which would actually be a good thing)

Wezl

7:56 PM

still true, we should start the other impl and draft a spec first

so now we've agreed on the language (java), do we make a list of instructions?

user

We're using Java?!

Wezl

*grins broadly*

but no

user

I'm outta here /s

@Wezl I guess, yeah

I need to do some more research into Befunge first myself, even if you're the brains behind this

Wezl

you can have RO if you want

user

Nah I'm good

Wezl

7:58 PM

room topic changed to Whlplash: fast fungeoid (no tags)

user

Honoring the typo in Befunge?

Wezl

it just felt right :)

what are some good tags?

user

fungeoid

Wezl

true, I don't have to limit myself to CGCC tags

room topic changed to Whlplash: fast fungeoid [befunge] [compiler] [fastest-code]

room topic changed to Whlplash: fast fungeoid [befunge] [compiler] [fastest-code] [scala]

user

Thanks!

Wezl

8:02 PM

room topic changed to Whlplash: fast fungeoid [befunge] [compiler] [fastest-code] [lisp]

user

(not sure if you're kidding again, but I'm happy it was temporarily scala)

@Wezl Okay, you were kidding :P

Wezl

I'll see if I can run scala brb

scala-js is an advantage

user

(there's Scala native but it's a bit unstable)

@Wezl Yep, it could be run online

There's Kotlin, but you'd probably like it even less than Scala

gtg now, bye

Redwolf Programs

@Wezl What do you dislike about newlines being used to end statements?

Wezl

@RedwolfPrograms it's a kludge

Redwolf Programs

8:07 PM

In what way?

Wezl

A good language should know what the ends are just by looking at the tokens inside

like lua

automatic semicolon insertion is disgusting, and most language's approaches are not much better than js

for example, if a language depends on newlines it doesn't work when pasted in single line input fields

although for that line comments break it too

I hate this

@user also there's probably a language, at least an esolang, already named whiplash

user

Oh right

Btw Factor's a cool language, though I'm not sure it'll be right for this (or that you can run it)

Wezl

yeah

let's do postscript

:P

now I'm trying to figure out how to use ecj to run jars

tbh it's always this hard to run things in termux

Wezl

8:26 PM

Maybe it should be a poll

You get two votes if you're going to contribute to development

Your options are:

- C

- Scala

- Haskell

- Scheme / Racket

- Befunge

- Java

- C++

- Rust

- SML

- Factor

(purposely omitting BF because no)

you can still vote once if you're just watching

hyper-neutrino

i vote C (and if I decide to contribute, + Racket)

user

Here's a poll: strawpoll.me/42951990/r (you can choose multiple languages, but please don't vote twice)

Wezl

I prefer voting here because you can explain yourself and I can count, but OK I'll vote there too

user

I mean, it's easier to count there, but we can always also post here

Wezl

oh wait why didn't I add prolog that would be cool

if we do C we can have a pretty fast interpreter, but anyway we can compile

Wezl

8:39 PM

Which brings up the next question, What is a good target?

- BF because yes

- Wax is cool

- C makes sense

user

@Wezl Wax would be a good IR, maybe, but not a target

I agree with C

Wezl

@user what's really the difference? Unless we create a new compiler for it, it can be one of the backends

user

I feel like the language itself should be worked on a little before we start thinking about how to compile it

Wezl

true true true true true

user

@Wezl Well, from what I can tell, Wax is meant to compile to other languages. It doesn't have any of the nice features unique to other languages

Wezl

8:42 PM

if you add something prefix it with * for a hypothetical documentation writing script

@user so it's like an IR, but we don't have to do some of the work

user

Hmm

Wezl

@Wezl that I've already messed up with my *grins broadly* :/

user

* chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/57674378#57674378

Wezl

wax is kind of a bonus for scheme

user

We could use Chez Scheme maybe

Turn the checks off and it works pretty well

Idris 2 uses it

Wezl

8:45 PM

but the data structures could be represented about as well in others

user

Yeah

Wezl

@user it also allows racket, but *groan* my racket is outdated or something so it didn't build

otherwise that would be another cool language and yay, more indecision

user

:\

Wezl

serendipitously, I've already started on a wax code generation from r5rs scheme library :)

but it's just barely started so not enough of an advantage

user

Aww

Wezl

8:49 PM

that's it

hyper-neutrino

what font is that

Wezl

@hyper-neutrino one you've never heard of :)

user

We may need jit for commands like p, actually

hyper-neutrino

huh, nice!

Wezl

1 hour ago, by Wezl

* befunge's g and p commands should probably not be added

user

8:50 PM

Oh :P

That'd make it a whole lot easier

Wezl

though it does remove a significant fun part of befunge

if we want we could keep g

I'm debating (in my head:) whether to write the ideas down, and if so in like a git repo or a collaborative markdown thingy

ofc I'll put them in chat too

here's a list of befunge-98 commands we might want to add

ideas for "prefix"es:

user

This might be a dumb question, but how do you take input (in Befunge)?

Wezl

- movement commands like j#v<>^

@user & and ~

user

@Wezl Thanks

Wezl

@user <hint>it's on the link I posted</hint>

- IO commands

- all the alphabetic prefixes should be user-defined

- numeric prefixes are for literals like any two-digit number pushes itself

- stack manipulation commands like :\$ and rot select-from-top (new-stack? like having a stack-stack)

user

9:01 PM

I like the idea of a stack-stack

Wezl

- arithmetic +-/%<> >= <= ==

user

- arithmetic commands?

Wezl

@user yes :)

user

Wow

Wezl

- implementation-specific pragmas and stuff

- noops

- stuff for creating your own prefixes and commands

user

9:04 PM

Macros, maybe?

Wezl

macros are weird in 2d

but yeah

you don't need macros as much for stack-based things

user

I wonder how a multidimensional fungeoid would work

@Wezl I guess so

Wezl

like more than 2d?

user

Yeah

How would you type the code?

Wezl

actually maybe you do need macros if it's going to be compiled

user

9:06 PM

Functions would be nice

Wezl

@user "In Trefunge-98, the Form Feed (12) character increments the z coordinate and resets the x and y coordinates to zero."

@user yeah definitely

the problem with functions is you have to delimit them somehow

same with like modules

you don't have the curly braces of 1D languages

concurrency is cool in 2D languages too

Befungell

►

user

9:24 PM

@Wezl What does the rot command look like?

Wezl

A B C -- B C A

user

I meant what the character used for it was

Wezl

oh I have no Idea

user

The Funge-98 spec includes \ but I can't tell how to do that

Wezl

should I make a table?

user

9:26 PM

That'd be great

Is there any other way to do A B -- A B A B?

Wezl

I think that's called 2dup

wiki.laptop.org/go/Forth_stack_operators

user

Yeah

Wezl

hack.allmende.io/1Mo11iQqT_6CH5iSWHQ2iA

2

I just remembered how much I hate markdown tables

user

You don't need the colons iirc

Wezl

they're for alignment, which is niceish

hyper-neutrino

9:34 PM

the colons are just for alignment

also i would recommend codeblocking the instructions (just `.`)

Wezl

I probably shouldn't put the right bar

user

Bye gtg watch tv

Wezl

bye

rak1507

10:13 PM

why is it whlplash

Wezl

2 hours ago, by Wezl

room topic changed to Whlplash: fast fungeoid (no tags)

read from here

obtw @rak1507 any preference for an implementation language?

rak1507

I probably won't be doing it so whatever causes the rest of you the most pain

Wezl

>:|

2 hours ago, by Wezl

(purposely omitting BF because no)

rak1507

Haskell then

hope you like monads

Wezl

yeah they're nice :)

Wezl

10:31 PM

 F.>~:?!?W?:01+-_F.+*.@
    .@01.<

CMC guess what this does

rak1507

stuff

Wezl

hint: commands are two chars wide, and there's a space before the F

rak1507

thanks that really helps (not)

Wezl

hello user

user

Hi

Is whlplash going to have concurrency? (probably not, right?)

Wezl

10:41 PM

I have no idea how

but I have no objections if anyone else does

user

It would probably complicate it, so maybe we could add it later once the basic stuff's done

Compiling a language like this is going to be hard :\

Wezl

yeah

adrianton3.github.io/blog/art/just-in-time-befunge/…

this is about a JIT for befunge

user

JIT would be cool

Might still be pretty complicated, and the runtime might get a bit bloated

Wezl

basically it says look at all the possible paths and then compile those

but it has to redo stuff when you p, which whlplash could fix

user

How fast is Befunjit?

Wezl

10:45 PM

it compiles to js so probably not much

user

> The process described above works fine, but it is rather slow due to the high number of context switches.

:(

Wezl

here's the benchmarks directory in the repo

user

Thanks

Wezl

doesn't have anything written down though

user

And I don't feel like downloading and running it

Wezl

10:48 PM

still, if we ditch p then we can go fast

and some paths will be optimized away, at least if we compile to something like c

user

This looks good

@Wezl Yeah

Wezl

ooh, I've already starred that repo but I hadn't actually looked at the code

user

The code looks like it was written by a golfer :P

Wezl

ninja'd

user

?

Wezl

10:52 PM

github.com/serprex/Befunge/commit/… "Started doing some code golf, found a bug in 1-stack p for marsh/bejit"

@user was about to say

user

:P

Wezl

perhaps ninja'd does not apply there

user

Long-term ninja

Wezl

yay I feel so productive

esolangs are a new way to cheat

user

At what? Being productive?

Wezl

10:54 PM

at feeling productive

Demur Rumed, Canada

139 4

user

And here's me struggling to do the latin square thing

rak1507

lol

fgitw-ing two easy questions got me more rep than hours of work for old questions (in terms of upvotes, ignoring bounties)

user

11:14 PM

Oh by the way Nim is a good language

Wezl

moral problems with that

user

Ha! Feel the pain of extra choices

@Wezl Indentation?

Wezl

yes

gtg

user

Bye!

Have fun grooming your goat or whatever it is gtg means there

Wezl

heh

Wezl

11:35 PM

we can make an alternative implementation in Ash and call it WhlplAsh

Wezl

11:56 PM

yay we bumped off the APL orchard

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