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02:00 - 11:0011:00 - 00:00

Bob
2:18 AM
@Burgi nah, go for 8 wheels
@MichaelFrank I neeeeeeeeeed it
 
2:29 AM
@Bob Yea, I wanted to spot weld some batteries.... then I just decided to Ali Express the CMOS batteries for $3.
 
Bob
@MichaelFrank similar reasons :P
I ended up attaching the battery tabs with magnets instead
 
 
4 hours later…
6:07 AM
Ugh. They atropine-d me
 
Eye appointment?
Or did you accidentally drink insecticide?
Or take too many beta-blockers?
 
6:26 AM
@bertieb eye appointment, yeah
 
Ahh
Have fun with things being bright and blurry for a while
 
Four hours :/
 
Hope all is well?
 
Anyway off to listen to podcasts and try and get some rest
@bertieb yep, just got a checkup done since I hadn't had one in a couple years
 
Good to hear, enjoy the podcasts!
 
 
1 hour later…
7:34 AM
I see that Taylor Swift is releasing a new album
Maybe that will bring NotDog back
 
7:48 AM
hey guys I am not able to search anything on this engbookspdf.com website in firefox. Can anyone tell why ? No input field is working
 
8:10 AM
@JourneymanGeek and that's ok :)
 
@djsmiley2k yup
but well, whatever works for you
I've got debian on the box that runs haiku32 bit as well ;p
and that works too
might have a question on that one soon actually
 
@rahuldottech's issue interests me, but without more info not much I can do.
I don't have a usb3 to test anything with, but I suspect ubuntu's kernel config is a bit derp.
Most users not realising because 'oh usb is always slow'
 
lol
might also depend on the chipset
if memory serves renasas was always a barrel of monkeys
oh that was fun. Install firefox, ephiphany reinstalls itself - i figure its due to libreoffice, and... I remove ibreoffice-common and... no dice. I get fed up and remove libreoffice-* ...
and it works
Never seen that on ubuntu before.
 
8:52 AM
That kind of fun happens on gentoo too, but with gentoo you can just add -t and it'll show you why it's installing something.
 
9:32 AM
lol
 
9:48 AM
@djsmiley2k @bertieb my eyesight has recovered for the most part, so I'm going back to the Ubuntu thing.
 
Good luck!
As I say, my experience of Ubuntu is rather dated but will assist if needed and possible
 
10:00 AM
@MichaelFrank Fn lock all the wayyyyyy
@bertieb so currently the progress bar is going down
I'm... not sure if this is a good thing
 
No idea
Maybe it's one of those fancy progress bars that ticks up and down
Like the MS ones that go around and around in a circle
Progress? Independent animation? You decide!
 
@bertieb I really don't need "progressive" progress bar. Just show me a % and be done with it
 
If I had my way, UI designers that put in spinners or infinite/repeating progress bars would be taken out and blindfolded, then given a countdown from ten to zero which would repeat before they were eventually shot on the seventh or eighth "...3"
@rahuldottech Yes but fancy, shiny!
"Updating percentages are so nineties, man!"~
Geh
 
Bob
@JourneymanGeek renesas' first was bad but the newer revisions are good iirc
@bertieb spinners are just "busy, idk how long"
makes sense
you can't always have a meaningful estimate of time
progress reporting is actually really hard
either you're batching at the top-level, where you can show progress but you're sacrificing speed (and probably doing large-ish chunks at once anyway)
or you're doing the optimal thing and passing large chunks to an underlying layer ... which has no easy way to report progress
 
@Bob No doubt, witness the many jokes at the old Windows file copy / IE download estimates
 
Bob
10:10 AM
@bertieb progress reporting is really hard; time estimates are impossible
almost nothing is constant rate
and, since you can't see the future, as rate changes the estimate must also change
 
I think you mean "precise estimates are impossible"
Estimates are very possible
 
@Bob This is why I prefer something like "task 3 of 8 completed", or the thing that (iirc) windows installer does where there's a list of tasks and checkmarks appear next to the ones that have been completed.
 
Bob
@bertieb you can't guarantee any accuracy
there's a decent chance of "infinite" because something broke part-way
 
This way, I know progress is being made, but I don't need an estimate of any sort
 
Yea, I'm not asking for to-the-microsecond accuracy
 
Bob
10:11 AM
@rahuldottech that's assuming your top-level has some list of tasks
 
And if something breaks, you exit the task / throw up an indicator of that
 
Bob
and you never know if "task 3" is the one that takes 5 hours while 4 through 8 take 10 seconds each
@bertieb so your estimate is wrong. by a lot.
 
at which point previous, current, future estimates are null and void
 
@Bob Yeah, that's cool with me. I get that some task can take more time than others.
 
Bob
@rahuldottech what's the difference between "busy" and "busy on 3 of 8"?
 
10:12 AM
@Bob if it goes to "4 of 8" you know it's doing something
 
Bob
and that's even assuming your close-to-UI layer knows it can be split into 8
 
and not just looping an animated gif
 
Bob
@bertieb ok, I have this list of 20 videos to download
I have this API function I can call: DownloadVideos(List<URL> videos)
I call that
I don't know what step it's on
 
@Bob because when it's just "busy", I can't tell if it's crashed or something. If I see progress from "3 of 8" to "4 of 8", at least I know something is happening
 
Bob
That's 99.95% of programming
I don't want to know what step it's on
 
10:13 AM
You know how long the list is
 
Bob
because then I'm moving that logic up to the top level
which goes against every abstraction rule ever
@bertieb And that helps how?
"Downloading 20 videos" is the same as "Downloading videos"
 
@Bob that's simple, make downloading a single step, and have different steps for processing or checking hashes or whatever else that you need to do other than download files
 
In what world?!
 
Bob
@rahuldottech So you literally add more steps just to show progress?
 
@Bob "Downloaded 1 of 8", "Downloaded 2 of 8", so on...
 
Bob
10:15 AM
@rahuldottech You can't.
I don't know how to make it clearer.
DownloadVideos is a black box.
You don't know what it's doing.
You didn't write it.
You don't have the source code.
You give it a list and 5 years later it gives you the downloaded videos.
 
@Bob Okay then make downloading a simple step?
 
Bob
You have zero visibility.
 
I think we're all coming at this from very different angles
 
Bob
@rahuldottech You can't do that either.
You have this API. It downloads videos.
The only alternative is to give it one video at a time. Which is generally a horrible idea in situations where you have an API that can take bulk.
Your goal: download videos. No post-processing. No other steps.
 
What I'm saying is that it reassures the user if progress of some sort (even if slow) is visible, as compared to "doing stuff" being shown for hours. And this is especially true for stuff that takes a long time, such as OS installs.
 
Bob
10:17 AM
If you want, I can give you a message that says "Step 1 of 1: downloading videos"
That's literally the same as "Downloading videos" with more words.
You still get a spinner. You get nothing else.
 
@Bob That's a very specific case. I'm talking about installing OSs here. They have more than just one step.
 
Bob
If you would rather not have a spinner, I can give you a window that doesn't respond to anything. Same-same.
 
@rahuldottech Yea
I still reckon we're talking at cross-purposes here
 
Bob
@rahuldottech And I'm talking about the general idea of any progress reporting.
It's always hard.
 
I don't get it. If the OS installer goes like:

1. Unpacking files - Complete
2. Checking for updates - Complete
3. Downloading updates - Complete
4. Installing updates - Complete
...
 
Bob
10:19 AM
More specifically, I'm talking about:
15 mins ago, by bertieb
If I had my way, UI designers that put in spinners or infinite/repeating progress bars would be taken out and blindfolded, then given a countdown from ten to zero which would repeat before they were eventually shot on the seventh or eighth "...3"
Which has nothing to do with installing OSes.
 
That (i) shows the user that stuff is happening, and (ii) makes it easy to see on which step a process failed, if it did
 
Bob
The gripe was about work indicators with no progress or estimate.
And the answer is that most of the time providing progress is either impossible or complicated.
 
@Bob we're talking about different things here.
 
@Bob Doesn't the windows installer do a spinning dots thing?
 
Bob
@rahuldottech I responded to a specific message.
 
10:20 AM
I don't install Windows that often, but I could swear there was one
 
Bob
Follow the convo trail if you don't believe me.
 
@Bob ...and ignored the context?
 
Bob
@rahuldottech The context had already drifted away from OS installation by then.
@bertieb Actually? No.
The Windows installer does (and has for years) separated prep, installing files, etc.
 
Huh, I thought I remembered white/grey dots on a black background
Dunno where I got that from
 
Bob
And then it does a spinner on, say, "installing files"
because actually listing every file is kinda meaningless. that goes into the extended logs.
 
10:23 AM
So there is a spinner dealie?
 
Bob
I think it does give you a progress bar, though.
Haven't bothered watching one for a while. Normally turn away for 10 mins and it's done.
 
I just want to know if my brain is making stuff up at this point :P
 
Bob
@bertieb Yea I'm not sure which one I'm remembering.
 
@Bob I haven't seen a progress bar in a Windows installer in a very long time.
 
Not critical either way I guess
Other than can-bertieb-rely-on-his-brain
:P
(we all know the answer to that...)
 
Bob
10:25 AM
@rahuldottech You've evidently either not used one in a very long time or not looked at it, then.
Because ^ is through all versions of 10, at the very least.
 
Maybe on the 'preparing' (User profile?) stage, or somesuch
 
Bob
Probably through Vista, though I'm less certain of that.
 
Again, [which stage is] not really terribly important one way or another I guess
 
Bob
 
@Bob oh. totally forgot about that. My bad.
 
Bob
10:27 AM
Though OS installation is one of the few places where separation into steps is (was?) useful
 
It's not what comes to mind when someone says "progress bar", in any case/
 
Bob
If only for debugging purposes. And because you don't really have log files on OS install.
 
Bob
@rahuldottech I don't really know how much more progress bar-y you can get than a ... progress bar :P
I suppose it is a bit in the background.
 
@Bob yeah lol. That's why I didn't remember it.
 
Bob
10:31 AM
@rahuldottech iotop
@bertieb The post-login one?
 
Erk
 
Bob
Yea that's more of a black box.
 
Think my dressings are leaking through to the plaster bandage
@Bob Could be aye
 
Bob
I think you actually can get a bit more info via some GPO but default is to hide it because it gets technical fast and the goal is for it to be really quick.
 
I think I've set up Win 10 around... 3 times :P
 
Bob
10:33 AM
@bertieb ... o_O
 
@Bob That was my reaction too
I can't really change dressing because cast
 
@bertieb the "getting some things ready" screen?
Annoys the hell outta me
 
@rahuldottech Might be aye
 
@bertieb GO HOSPITAL NOW
 
@rahuldottech Thanks for the advice, but I think I can take a more measured response ;-P
 
10:35 AM
@bertieb GO HOSPITAL NOW
 
Basically only problem is if wound seems to be infected which it's to all appearances not - no pain, redness, smell - just a bit (sorry) 'leaky'
 
Bob
Erm. Plaster doesn't deal well with water.
Also. Leaky = maybe infected, no?
 
@Bob Aye, but it's on the bandage side
@Bob Nah you get normal slough from a granulating / healing wound
I'd post a pic of the actual wound but dunno if y'all'd thank me for it
 
I suspect @bertieb has knowledge of these things the same way someone in prison will have knowledge of law
 
I could link it in PII so it doesn't onebox, I guess?
 
10:36 AM
that seems... reasonable
 
@JourneymanGeek A little more than that, but I'll take that as a vote of confidence ;-P
2 shakes of a lamb's tail
 
@bertieb m8 just take care of yourself, and don't make it let it get worse
 
erf. I'm half certain the intel IGPU will muddle through UHD, but its not
 
@rahuldottech Believe you me, I won't!
(always seemed a funny phrase to me, "believe you me")
 
Bob
@bertieb erm. riot oneboxes lol
 
10:38 AM
@JourneymanGeek lmao. I don't even know how to interpret this statement
@Bob not if you link to the imgur page, as opposed to the direct image
(iirc)
 
Since I can't remember my imgur deets, I'll just upload it to my own dealie
 
@bertieb don't link to a .jpg/.png/whatever
 
Guess I'm having an attack of the stupids
@rahuldottech Yarp
 
@bertieb or you can format the link as code. That should prevent oneboxing
 
@rahuldottech Good shout 👍
Done
Hmm, maybe I don't have an imgur account in that username
 
10:46 AM
 
Because I didn't get an email
@rahuldottech Those seem like warnings... albeit critical warnings
 
@bertieb I've been getting them since yesterday
And I have no idea what they mean
 
Do you have a usb gamepad plugged in, or somesuch?
 
Also, wtf Ubuntu takes longer to tinstall than Windows?
 
That'd be my wager on axes
 
10:47 AM
@bertieb nup, keyboard, mouse, USB hub.
 
Hmm, dunno
 
Also, my Q802.
 
Ah, maybe that
But probably not that
My Q802 is recognised as Bus 002 Device 005: ID 08bb:2902 Texas Instruments PCM2902 Audio Codec
 
@bertieb I don't even see how the devices that are currently plugged in are relevant to an install on another drive?
 
(lol, nearly linked the hand wound from pii instead of the device string)
 
10:49 AM
lol
 
@rahuldottech mmmm, at a guess it's probably trying to do something 'clever'
Like autorecognise attached hardware and <do something appropriate>
eg show volume mixer, show charge/battery status, show locale/capslock, etc etc
 
CMON
THIS IS WHAT I GET AFTER 1.5 hours of waiting!?
goddamnit argh why is everything so broken
 
Ouch
What does the log show?
 
@bertieb I'm not sure where the log is located
 
Reminds me of my old Windows 9x days
reran the installer so many times I had the serial memorised
@rahuldottech Maybe the bug report tool will tell you
as ever, check dmesg and journalctl
I don't use the latter much so perhaps someone else can chime in on how to get errors from that?
 
10:55 AM
It's not so hard to make a working OS installer, y'know? Or to simply tell the user what went wrong?
And sure, I'll look at the logs and stuff, but your average user will not have so much patience
 
I suspect making a working installer is kinda hard :P
Given the extremely broad range of hardware it has to work with
@rahuldottech Yer storage looks gubbed to me
Let me have a closer look tho
[ 3647.164217] EXT4-fs warning (device sdd5): ext4_end_bio:323: I/O error 10 writing to inode 1855610 (offset 0 size 12288 starting block 8386709)
 
@bertieb it's a brand new drive
 
that looks ungood
 
Yea, that's probably why it took so long
too
@rahuldottech Bathtub curve, new drives can (unfortunately) fail early or be DOA
 
@bertieb it's an established model, new drive :(
arhfhhdfwaudhwiudh
 
10:59 AM
Could be a fake?
 
No.
Could this problem be caused by some partitioning thing?
 
I'm not in any way blaming you if it is
Just, very convincing fakes are a thing
Particularly in storage
 
@bertieb I'm sure it's not a fake. like 99% sure.
 
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