@KorvinStarmast Yes, thanks to the topic it would be harder for AI to make a good contribution here.

@Matthew Sorry, I was thinking of modern classical which is abstract like modern art. I forgot about good film music like those by the 2 composers you mentioned (Gareth Coker for Ori and the Blind Forest and James Horner for Avatar) and

some good modern church music like John Rutter's such as his Be Thou My Vision, an album containing hymns with his own music.

Although I have a preference for music with more "information content" (either harmony or counterpoint), even simple melody with homophonic chords are good too, if performed "humanly" (using either voice / acoustic instrument's with noticeable range of color and emotion) such as that STNG First Contact theme.

... or this La Califfa from 1970s film music by Italian Ennio Morricone performed by Sarah Brightman (original version by oboe here).

@GratefulDisciple I don't think I could convert someone to becoming a Swiftie any more than a Catholic! I appreciate the parts of her poetry that help me understand my daughter more. But her funnier videos are good though (22, Mean, Reputation, Blank Space, Anti-hero).

Her last 3 albums (not counting the latest one) Lover, Folklore and Evermore are specifically what I'm talking about. Songs like "Champange Problems" and "'tis the damn season", "august" and "Paper Rings" and "Gold Rush" and "The One" are just really good.

Now I'm trying to do something kind of weird, which is to compile an entire Catechism based on drawing spiritual truths out of her albums and honestly it is working.

@GratefulDisciple yeah, feel free to flag things you think might be AI generated; it's always a bad sign and usually a bad answer (no refs)

@GratefulDisciple Ah, yes, Rutter is lovely. Oh, that reminds me, ever hear anything by Arvo Pärt? There's someone that's both exploring new territory and definitely not "drivel". 😁 I have Berliner Messe next to me.

@GratefulDisciple Hehe, I think we talked about ST8 before. I'm actually listening to that "now". (That is, it's my current playlist when I'm in the car.) As for Ennio Morricone... GB&U is classic, "The Ecstasy of Gold" in particular. Horner, though (RIP), is one of my all-time favorites, but yeah, there are quite a few good post-1950 composers.

@Matthew I heard of Arvo Pärt but haven't listened to him. BTW, just to clarify, I said "I have very little regard for new music" which is more an expression of personal consumptive preference; it's very different than saying "modern music is garbage" or "drivel" which emphasizes value judgment. I have grown to accept that especially in recent decades music is NOT consumed as art anymore, so it would be foolish for me to judge others by their way of consuming music, making me to appear haughty.

@PeterTurner I'm glad you and your daughter can connect via Taylor Swift and that that aided her accepting of Catholicism. Musically I grew up in a cocoon; I remember in my college days how surprised I was when my new college acquaintances were so engrossed watching VH1 and MTV. The non-music aspects (choreography, dress, dance, lyrics, beats) are a lot more prominent to the overall enjoyment, making the musical content itself 2nd place.

It's simply and truly a different mode of engagement served by different types of music.

@GratefulDisciple Language issue? "Regard", at least to me, implies a low opinion thereof, not just a lack of preference. Did you mean "little interest in"? OTOH, I agree that most pop "is not consumed as art anymore". 🙂

@Matthew Yes, little interest, or more precisely (I checked the dictionary) I meant meaning # 1 here (lack of care).

I equally meant the same for modern classical music as well (post Tchaikovsky) because they are increasingly atonal and abstract, although my college teachers want to broaden my horizon to appreciate these kind of music as well, so I have to suffer to learn them for the sake of academics.

My organ professor said that I'm trapped in the 18th century; but he managed to persuade me to learn and appreciate the works of great 19th and 20th century French Masters of the Organ: César Franck, Camille Saint-Saëns, Charles-Marie Widor, Olivier Messiaen, Marcel Dupré, and Louis Vierne. Thankfully they are not atonal and abstract yet, so I could endure them although once I graduated I rarely listen to them.

(I think I have to scratch Messiaen from the list though, as his music is too abstract already. Maybe Dupré too.)

@GratefulDisciple Heh. You might not like Pärt, then. 🙂 Personally, I appreciate that sort of haunting, "ethereal" dissonance.

Have you heard The Passing of the Elves? Would you put that in the "increasingly atonal and abstract" category, and what do you think of it?

@Matthew I listened to parts of Avro Pärt's Berliner Messe which the comment says that his music has an aspect of Russian tonality (among other characteristics), which reminds me of the film music for The Hunt of the Red October which I really like. The dissonance there doesn't bother me because they resolved right away, and the tonal center is clear.

Contrast that with an example of Messiaen, which is very hard to appreciate, smacks of avant-garde only for connoisseurs. How Messiaen became a standard organ repertoire is beyond my understanding. Compared to that, I can foresee enjoying Avro Pärt'.

@GratefulDisciple Um... okay, I think I see your point. 🙂 I would need to listen to a lot more than 44 seconds to decide whether I could appreciate Messiaen, but it's definitely not "beautiful" the way Pärt is. I'll grant you "avant garde"!

@Matthew No, that one clearly has a tonal center and doesn't modulate. Tonal center means gravitates toward a "do" and modulations return back to a clearly discernible primary scale. It simply uses a different mode for the scale, typical of ethnic music. The dissonance is due to the chords used or due to the descant, but it resolves quickly. So this one I can definitely enjoy

@GratefulDisciple I gather you're on a more profound topic, but you could probably write a sermon on a lyric like "All we are is skin and bone trained to get along // forever going with the flow, but you're friction". My hermeneutic is that every time Ms. Swift is talking positively about a man that's Jesus and every time she is not, that's Satan (or some possessed boy her age).

@PeterTurner OK, I see it a little more clearly how it works. I'm just glad it produces the result in your case, but since I'm not familiar at all with Ms. Swift's lyrics obviously makes it hard for me to use it with my own kids. I guess the general principle is that we can only share what has become part of us: what we possess, digested, understand, and appreciate.

One potential approach I'm planning to use is what Fr. Legge & Fr. Thomas White use in explaining doctrines in very relatable human experiences. That's why I keep on listening again and again to the lectures I frequently mentioned in this chat so they become part of me. When appropriate circumstances arise, I can then use them with my kids.

@GratefulDisciple yeah, I think that's why they keep us on a 2 to 3 year circuit of Bible readings at Mass so we absorb them

@PeterTurner Yes, coupled with Bishop Barron's homilies. No Protestants can complain that Catholics don't read the Bible. Fr. Legge & Fr. White really demonstrated to me how careful they exegete the Bible in light of the Patristics.

@GratefulDisciple ya know, that's one thing I really do like about Novus Ordo - having three readings at Mass - and finding the typology between the OT reading and the Gospel. It's totally gone at TLM, I don't know what the reasoning behind the readings in the old rite were.

Did you show that link to Luke? I see his new prof's on there

@PeterTurner Yes, I mentioned about the Early Church Fathers conference at Hillsdale College to @LukeHill. Those 5 lectures (#1 is a short introduction) are really good intro to applying Patristics to Christology and day-to-day spiritual life.

@PeterTurner Exactly. I really like that aspect of the liturgical year readings as well.