@KorvinStarmast this one is too difficult to understand. English isn't my first language
@KorvinStarmast removing (donating) a kidney decreases our well-being so it is bad; pregnancy decreases our well-being but it makes us stronger and accompanied by joy so it is good
Edit: removing (donating) a kidney decreases our toxic-removal capability so it is a jeopardy on our well-being; pregnancy causes pain, vomiting, nausea, etc, but it makes us stronger and accompanied by joy so it is not a jeopardy of our well-being, or it doesn't matter.
@LeakyNun while that question may be interesting to you in the abstract, it is actually an obfuscatory one - in my opinion it is not a question with utility that will contribute to furthering understanding in this debate
a fetus is something concrete to consider, a mass of human cells is quite an ambiguous thing that could be lots of different things
@LeakyNun to me, it is not at all confusing to say that cancer cells are not a human. Do you think there is some ambiguity about such an issue? If not, why bring it up?
@LeakyNun that is factually incorrect
perhaps you could argue such a case for an embryo, but not a fetus
@LeakyNun So, is a liver a human? Is a hand a human? These are not terribly difficult questions to say no to in my opinion. Why would you find it so difficult to do so?
@LeakyNun Hmm, well it looked like you were trying to debate the issue previously with Lee. I was thinking, "how could you debate such an issue without resolving such a fundamental premise first?"
@LeakyNun not really - if you can't agree on axiomatic premises, you won't be actually debating, merely talking at cross-purposes. If you want a proper debate, then firstly you need to debate the axiomatic premises
@LeakyNun well let's assume there is no audience - whether we decide to use conventions of debate or not would be purely for our convenience in aiding the quality of our discussion
@LeakyNun I think it's interesting that you would think in terms of a continuum when a judgment of whether an abortion is right or wrong will require a strict determination of category. I think such a view could potentially deal yourself out of the issue - you would have no rational basis to make a judgment, it would be purely subjective.
Can you see the potential problem inherant in that? If so, how could you avoid it?
Apologies for being blunt, I'm just calling it as I see it
"What is a human being?" & "What rights should a human being have?" can be very difficult questions to define on the margins; in my opinion, "a fetus is a human being" and "a human being has a right to life" are farily unexceptional statements as they are not really at the margins of these discussions - that's just my opinion, what do you think?
@LeakyNun The assertion that pregnancy decreases well being is an opinion of yours, not a fact, but I think I'll not bother with your games any further.
@bruisedreed I think that the strongest arguments from both camps (the bodily rights argument from the pro-choice camp and the parental responsibility argument from the pro-life camp) apply whether the fetus is a human being or not, and I do agree that the two questions you pose are difficult questions to address.
@LeakyNun Once again, that's not what I said. I said that removing a kidney reduces our ability to remove toxins from the system, and therefore does have a generally negative effect on our physical health and wellbeing. However, I also said this is a matter of choice on the part of the one donating a kidney. If it saves the life of one of the donator's children, it may greatly increase his or her emotional wellbeing.
My point about kidney donation is that it must be a choice on the part of the one donating, not something required by law or social pressure.
As for pregnancy, other than in cases of rape, incest, and so on, the choice was made when the people voluntarily engaged in sexual intercourse and thus took the risk of pregnancy. And unlike kidney removal, pregnancy is a normal and natural part of human biological functioning.
Yes, pregnancy and childbirth are commonly associated with some amount of discomfort and pain. And as I said, the likelihood of that is reduced when we take care of our overall health. People who are physically unhealthy will be more likely to have difficult pregnancies and births.
But the common discomfort and pain of pregnancy is also a known issue of pregnancy, so getting pregnant is done with that risk in mind as well. And in general, if a woman is otherwise healthy, that discomfort and pain does not damage the woman's long-term health. She recovers from it, and there are no long-term negative effects physically, while emotionally she has borne a child, and has the joy (and yes, struggle) of being a mother.
Most women who bear children consider the travails of pregnancy to be well worth it for the joy of being a mother.
And having gone through struggles to bring a child into the world does increase a woman's emotional strength and wellbeing. As with other accomplishments, the struggle and pain of bringing it to fruition causes her to value the child who is born more than she otherwise would. As I said earlier, things that come easily to us are less valued than those that we struggle and fight to attain.
It is true that for some women pregnancy can be life-threatening and can have long-term negative effects. But that is usually for women who have some physical handicap or some unhealthful condition not caused by the pregnancy, which makes pregnancy problematic and even life-threatening for her.
For most women who are in good general health, pregnancy has no long-term negative effects on the woman's wellbeing, and assuming she bears a child, especially if it's a healthy child, it has very good long-term positive psychological and emotional effects.
@LeeWoofenden I don't understand how your arguments do not apply for kidney donation. Kidney donation had also used to be with great risk, but the risks are also lowered nowadays; healthy people would also have less problem with kidney donation than unhealthy people; being able to continue a life can also bring joy and well-being; etc.
Donating a kidney, meanwhile, does have long-term negative effects on a person's physical wellbeing, for the reasons already stated. But as I said, if the person chooses to donate a kidney to save the life or health of another human being, especially one who is loved by the donator, then it can have long-term positive psychological and emotional effects on the donator.
Kidney donation is a fairly direct, simple choice. You either choose to donate a kidney or you don't.
Pregnancy is a more complicated choice, because people commonly engage in sex for reasons other than getting pregnant, and for those people getting pregnant might be considered an "undesirable side effect" of having sex. But in having sex, especially unprotected sex, they are still making a decision to do something that could result in pregnancy, and they still must take responsibility for the possible consequences of their actions.
@LeakyNun About responsibility, those are my beliefs. Some people think it's fine to live irresponsibly and deal with whatever consequences may occur if they occur. Some people think it's fine to live irresponsibly and then let other people, such as parents or taxpayers, take responsibility for the consequences of their actions.
@LeakyNun Parental responsibility is just another form of responsibility. If a couple of teenagers jump into bed and figure, "Oh well, if I/she gets pregnant, her parents will take care of the baby," or "someone else will pay for the abortion," then they're not taking responsibility for the possible, and even likely, consequences of their actions.
@LeakyNun First of all, kidneys are usually donated to adults, not to children--though there are, of course, exceptions. So in most instances it would be a parent donating a kidney for an adult child. And parental responsibility ends when a child reaches adulthood. In my view, parents are not responsible for the health and wellbeing of their adult children. The adult children themselves are responsible for their own health and wellbeing.
So it is not a parental responsibility to donate a kidney to an adult child.
In the case of a minor who needs an organ transplant, that is a more difficult issue, since parents are responsible for the health and wellbeing of their minor children. And so it's really a judgment call. But we have to draw the line somewhere, and in my judgment, such things an kidney donations for minor children fall under the category of parental choice, not parental responsibility.
@LeakyNun Because I don't believe society or the law has the right to require a parent to put his or her own life and health in jeopardy for the life of one of their children. This, once again, is a matter of balancing one life against another. And my view at this point, at least, is that that must be the choice of the person whose life and wellbeing would be put in jeopardy.
It's the same reason that I would not presume to make a decision for a pregnant woman whose pregnancy could jeopardize her life. That, in my view, has to be her own decision.
Some women will choose to have the baby even when the doctor tells her that it might cost her her life. Others will choose to abort the baby. I don't think society or the law should make that decision for her.
So even if I were for laws against abortion, I would support an exception if the life of the mother is in danger from the pregnancy.
If I have a question about John 20:30-31 (_https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+20&version=KJV) about this phrase 'And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book. But these are written' would it be appropriate here or biblical heur site?
> The See of El Palmar de Troya has also declared the Real Presence of the Virgin Mary in the sacred host and the bodily assumption into heaven of St. Joseph to be dogmas of the Catholic faith.
@depperm If you want to ask about what that means then ask on the hermeneutics site. If you want to ask how a particular Christian group interprets the verse, then ask on the Christianity site. You can also ask for an 'overview' of the major interpretations on the Christianity site.
I would go for the overview because I suspect there's only a handful of interpretations among the 40k denominations.
