@LeeWoofenden to me the rebirth that Christ talked about is a lifelong process, not an instantaneous event. That's why we're given a lifetime in which to accomplish it Amen, Lee, Amen!

Or, we're given a lifetime in which to live it ;)

@curiousdannii That's what the afterlife is for.

@LeeWoofenden Definitely. Look at the thief on the cross example.

@Piomicron Yes. The thief on the cross is a fine example of someone who repented, did good works, and had faith in Jesus, and who therefore, as Jesus said, would join him in paradise (i.e., heaven). See: "Are We Saved in an Instant? How was the Thief on the Cross Saved?"

@LeeWoofenden ...Did a good work, perhaps.

@Piomicron He witnessed to his fellow thief, even while he himself was in great agony. If that's not a good work, I don't know what is. How many people would be thinking about anyone but themselves and their own pain, misery, and imminent death while nailed to a cross?

@LeeWoofenden That's what I said. He did a good work.

@Piomicron What did you mean by "perhaps"?

@LeeWoofenden I wasn't doubting the validity of the good work, I was merely using it to frame a reduction of statement

@Piomicron Good works, a good work, it really doesn't matter. Either way, it is not by faith alone that he was saved, but by repentance, doing good, and having faith, all working together.

By the way, what do we think about the transgender business card issue?

@Piomicron Regardless of the rights or wrongs of specific things such as being transgender, in general I don't think individuals or businesses should be forced to do things they find morally objectionable. In particular, I don't think there should be laws requiring individuals or businesses to do or support things that are contrary to their moral or religious beliefs.

@LeeWoofenden I think the same. If you look at what the guy actually said and did, he's doing nothing hypocritical, disrespectful, or hateful.

@Piomicron I haven't actually looked at that particular case. It's just one of a whole series of instances in which (usually) conservative Christians are facing off against liberal activists of one sort or another over whether they must provide services that go contrary to their beliefs.

Though I often agree with the liberals about the rights and wrongs of the particular issues, I still don't think the conservative Christians should be forced into doing things contrary to their religious beliefs.

@LeeWoofenden Uh... I feel if I probe further, I'll be opening a few dozen more cans of worms.

What if the tables were turned, and a liberal, inclusive baker were being asked by a neo-Nazi group to make a wedding cake with a swastika on it?

Should the law force the baker to bake that cake?

@LeeWoofenden I'd say no, but I'd also say that's likely to be preaching to the choir if you post that here.

@Piomicron The point is, people shouldn't be forced, and especially not legally forced, to do things that go contrary to their moral and religious beliefs.

That does not mean, however, that people can do whatever they want with impunity. I don't think we should allow ritual human sacrifice even if that's part of a particular group's religious beliefs.

And I have no problem with shutting down the Westboro Baptist "Church" picketing gay funerals. That's just plain mean and hateful.

In other words, any actions should be permissible by law except that which takes human life or otherwise goes against their rights?

@LeeWoofenden You mean Westboro "Baptist" "Church"

@Piomicron In general, yes. But of course, the devil is in the details. That's why some of these issues are so conflicted, and take such a long time for society to resolve.

@Piomicron lol yeah.