@LeeWoofenden "That [judgment by own beliefs] is, in fact, what Paul himself teaches in Romans 2:1-16". No, the clear meaning of the text is that no one has an excuse - inside or outside the law, people do things they know are wrong [i.e. knowingly sin].

@bruisedreed Of course! Nasty typo there.

@LeeWoofenden You never did answer my question - if all people are judged by their own belief system, then what is the point of the Great Commission? Indeed, there are many belief systems that demand less\are easier to follow than Christianity. Bringing the Gospel to such people would seemingly decrease their chance of salvation.

@ThaddeusB Exactly. The key words being "things they know are wrong." That is a function of their beliefs. The key verses in this connection are Romans 2:14-16:

> When Gentiles, who do not possess the law, do instinctively what the law requires, these, though not having the law, are a law to themselves. They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, to which their own conscience also bears witness; and their conflicting thoughts will accuse or perhaps excuse them on the day when, according to my gospel, God, through Jesus Christ, will judge the secret thoughts of all.

@ThaddeusB I wrote a whole article about that: If Non-Christians can Go to Heaven, Why should Christians Evangelize?

@LeeWoofenden I don't wish to be difficult, but I don't at all see doing "instinctively what the law requires" and being true to one own belief system are the same thing. ... Your blog post didn't help much: Jesus wants everyone to know he is God, but doesn't care if they come to believe that or not as long as they live a loving life? Is that what you are saying?

@ThaddeusB Protestantism in general focuses far to much on belief. The Bible focuses mostly on how we live our life. That, I believe, is what Jesus most wants to see, as he said very clearly: Love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, and soul, and love your neighbor as yourself. These he placed as the greatest commandments in the Bible. So yes, living a loving life is the primary message of the Bible. Belief is a way to achieve that.

Faith points the way to a loving life. And if it doesn't, it is worthless.

@ThaddeusB "To which their own conscience also bears witness." Conscience is key. And our conscience is formed according to what we have been taught by our own religion as being right and wrong. Many of these teachings are common to all the major and most of the minor religions. Most of the laws in the Ten Commandments are not limited to Judaism and Christianity, but are laws of every major religion on the face of the earth.

Beyond those major, universal laws of conduct toward God and conduct toward our neighbor, there is much variation. And there the conscience of a person from one religion may be different than the conscience of a person from another religion. Those who live according to their conscience show their willingness to be faithful to God as they understand God. That is what Jesus desires of us.

@LeeWoofenden Yes, the first commandment is to love the Lord your God , but what if "your god" is say money. I'm sure you would agree that loving that god doesn't get you to salvation. So why then is loving a set of gods good enough (e.g. polytheism, although polytheism does not generally teach one to "love" their gods as opposed to "respect" them)? Why then is trying to achieve enlightenment be one with the (non-god) universe good enough? (i.e Buddhism)

(Perhaps the answer is it is not, but you've provided me with nothing to believe that you believe otherwise so far.)

If this boils down to mostly treating other people well, then sure most religions teach that. Indeed, most atheists believe (and practice) that too. Maybe then you are saying nearly all people achieve salvation? And the only real benefit of Christianity is that it happens to be true (but that truth doesn't impact salvation much)?

@El'endiaStarman Did your pastor's prophecies come about?

The ones about the stock market and mexico and all that

@LeeWoofenden "a way" or "the way"?

@LCIII I think we're still in the time frame of "waiting to see".

@El'endiaStarman Any chance you could do a sweep through the ten or so pending tag synonyms?

@ThaddeusB Yes, of course, there are false gods, represented in the Bible by idols and the various gods of the surrounding nations. What makes a god a false God is that it leads people to do evil, destructive, selfish, and greedy things. "By their fruits you will know them."

If, however, a person's God is leading him or her to do good, loving, truthful, caring things, that is not a false god. It is the presence of the true God, even if the person may have some mistaken beliefs about the nature of God.

These days, in most parts of the world, very few people actually worship literal idols that are "false gods." But many people "worship" such false gods as money, power, beauty, and physical pleasure. While not necessarily evil in themselves, when things such as these become our primary goals in life, they become false gods that we worship instead of the true God of love, wisdom, and service to the neighbor.

@ThaddeusB I'm saying that all people who live good lives of love and service to their fellow human beings based on their own beliefs and conscience achieve salvation. Unfortunately, there are many people who do not do this. I would like to think that most people achieve salvation. However, there are an awful lot of people in the world who are living evil and destructive lives based on greed and a desire for personal power and pleasure.

@ThaddeusB I happen to believe that of the religions on earth, Christianity in its genuine form has the greatest access to and understanding of divine and spiritual truth. Its benefit is that it gives us the knowledge and power to progress to great spiritual depths.

Unfortunately, most of the Christian world has missed most of the depth of truth available in Christianity. As a result, in general, Christians are not all that much better in their beliefs and actions than good people of other religions. In fact, an awful lot of the mischief in the world today is being caused by Christians and "Christian nations."

@ThaddeusB A couple of articles on my blog relevant to your questions: Do Atheists Go to Heaven? and: Can Gang Members Go to Heaven? (Is Life Fair?)

@JackDouglas I wasn't engaging in that particular argument. Rather, I was saying that the purpose of belief is to get us to love God and love our neighbor. If it doesn't do that, then it isn't really belief.

@fredsbend In Swedenborg's formulation of the nature of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, there is no contradiction, and no need to choose one over the other.

Nevermind.

@fredsbend Now you've got me curious . . . .

@LeeWoofenden I'll need time to formulate my thoughts and then trap you like a lawyer in the courtroom. Then you'll just have to concede that I'm right.

But off the cuff, I'm not prepared to do that.

@fredsbend Is that your goal? To be right?

Always.

@fredsbend I think I see your problem . . .

jk

@fredsbend Watch out! "Many a truth is said in jest!"

And out of the mouth of babes ...

@fredsbend There was a time not too many decades ago that being right was my primary goal in any argument or conversation. I used to love arguing. And of course, I thought I was always right.

So I speak from experience . . .

I was pretty bad about a decade ago too.

Today, I do earnestly try to decided the validity of the argument based on the actual argument, rather than what I first believed was true. I suffered heavily from confirmation bias for quite a while.

I even remember reading something about Evolution once when I was a YEC and said to myself, "I don't want to read this. I want to read stuff that agrees with me."

@fredsbend Probably at about the same age I was pretty bad. It's a common malady of youth--and especially of teenage boys and young men. Unfortunately, many of them never grow out of it.

I'm heading out now. See ya around. I might never get to responding with that undeniable argument, but do note that it is certainly due to a lack of time and motivation, rather than an inability to discover that argument in the first place. ;)

@fredsbend In this case, I believe absence of evidence is at least evidence of absent-mindedness, and probably evidence of absence of a valid argument. So put that in your pipe and smoke it!

@LCIII ...is it September yet? No. There's still some time. He predicted it would happen mid-September to October.

@LeeWoofenden Pffft. I never had that problem! (Yes I did. I got better.)

@LeeWoofenden Why didn't Sabellianism win out, in that case?

I understand you think the two are different (christianity.stackexchange.com/a/40912/21576), but are you saying that the trinity "heresy" is closer to the truth than straight modalism?

@Nathaniel Probably because it in effect erased the distinctions between Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, saying that they are only different ways God appears, rather than distinct parts of God. At least the Trinity of Persons affirms that they are distinct from one another.

Also, in Sabellianism, there's no reason God couldn't appear in four or five or more modes or manifestations. This opens the door to Father, Son, and Holy Spirit not encompassing the whole of God, but being simply three possible manifestations of God that happen to be named in the New Testament. The Trinity of Persons doctrine kept it to three, which reflects the fundamental nature of God.

@LeeWoofenden Good point; I can see that. Thanks.

@Nathaniel Basically, Swedenborg said that the doctrine of the Trinity as expressed in the Athanasian Creed was closer to the truth than any of the other heresies about the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit that arose after the last of the original disciples died, along with everyone who had known them. About the Athanasian Creed, Swedenborg said:

> The doctrine of the Athanasian Creed agrees with the truth, provided that by a Trinity of Persons is understood a Trinity of Person, and that this Trinity is in the Lord. (Doctrine of the Lord #55)

In elaborating on this, he said that the Athanasian Creed basically got everything right except that it called the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit distinct Persons instead of seeing them as distinct parts of the one Person of God.

So yes, the Trinity doctrine as almost universally accepted in Christianity is closer to the truth than modalism, and than any of the other heresies that it displaced.

@El'endiaStarman Congratulations! You've reached Level 2! :-P

@El'endiaStarman Ooh! This is gonna be fun! >:-}

@LeeWoofenden Ha. As I indicated (if I recall correctly) in my prophetic claim evaluation blog post, that there will be an economic collapse in the near future is practically certain. Some would say it's already started because Greece defaulted last month, I think.

@Mr.Bultitude All done! Merged them all too.

@El'endiaStarman Awesome! Thanks a lot.

@ThaddeusB I approved your addition of the "denomination" tag to my question about any Protestant denominations rejecting salvation by faith alone because that tag seems to be in common use. However, it seems to me to be a particularly useless tag. It's so generic as to be almost meaningless. What meaningful grouping does it make that anyone might actually use?

(I do realize that you didn't originate the tag.)

@El'endiaStarman The EU is working on the Greece problem. The markets did get shaky, but they were overdue for a correction anyway. Beyond that, I really don't think the Bible is about politics and finance.