The Upper Room

12:46 AM

@Anonymous that wouldn't be called Lutheranism, Luther would have opposed that ;)

@Anonymous If Luther were a different person, maybe that would have happened. Very few "founders" of any denomination sought to do more than illuminate what they thought was truth.

Daи

@Anonymous hardly any movements actually practice what their namesake taught

fredsbend

This ^^^

Daи

@Anonymous there you go with your ill-informed blanket statements again ;)

Anonymous

2:48 AM

@Daи That's just my imagination.

@Daи Limited knowledge of the world often produces an inaccurate model of the world.

@Daи But I am not firmly dogmatic, so my knowledge of the world is tentative.

@Daи In that case, logically speaking, none of the Christian denominations actually follow what Jesus taught. ;)

Anonymous

3:39 AM

@Daи Although my blanket statements may be ill-informed, they are never dogma and may be subject to change upon the arrival of new information.

Anonymous

4:26 AM

I don't think there is anything wrong with making blanket statements, even if they are false. If they are shown to be false, then that just gives an opportunity to learn what is true. Therefore, I believe that I should continue making blanket statements.

fredsbend

6:21 AM

@Anonymous I believe that is a non sequitur. Making statements without regard to their accuracy is not the first logical step to finding what is true. Study and investigation is.

Historically, blanket statements have led to ignorance and ignorant behavior, not truth seeking.

Does Elisha speak?

8:29 AM

0

Q: Guidelines for retagging

Now that I've reached 2k rep, I'd like to help by doing some retagging. There are a number of big tags that get frequently misused, such as bible and jesus. Just because a question is about Christianity doesn't mean that those tags should be used! I intend to follow the guidelines in What is our...

Caleb

10:44 AM

@bruisedreed Any time a closed question is edited by anybody it will automatically put it in the re-open review queue.

I take that back, apparently I remember wrong.

@RobertHarvey, if the OP edits their post in the five days after it was closed, it's automatically added to the re-open queue now. — Jaydles ♦ Mar 22 '13 at 16:31

It only goes into the queue if the OP edits it, not a third party.

Otherwise somebody has to cast a first re-open vote, then it will go in the queue.

As for the specific question you asked about, personally I don't think it should be opened. Your edit is pretty good and would make a passable question, but it is not the question the OP asked. The question they had (and likely still have in their head no matter how their post gets edited) is a sin / pastoral advice question. The likely have a specific case in mind and I think we are better off leaving those sort of questions alone.

Wow, double wrong. I was actually right the first time. I guess it's changed since the first implementation because you 3rd party edit DID put the question in the re-open queue. @bruisedreed

bruised reed

11:31 AM

@caleb Ok thanks. Do you really think I changed it that much? The way I understand the essence of the OP is "I don't think the bible says common-law-marrage is sinful - what do you (all) think?" - would you disagree with that interpretation? Could you be more specific how my edit is not faithful to his intent?

Anonymous

11:46 AM

@fredsbend I said my statements are tentative.

@fredsbend But blanket statements in the form of hypotheses may produce truth-seeking behavior.

bruised reed

@Anonymous Using blanket statements as hypotheses could be valid if you're engaged in a proof by contradiction (you actually want to prove the opposite of the blanket statement), but I can't think of any other good reason for using them that way otherwise

Anonymous

But sociologists make generalized statements all the time. Sure, they are careful at generating these generalized statements, but when there may be potentially contradictory information, the overarching theory may be adapted to take into account of the new information, or explain the circumstances that may lead the new findings to become not as predicted.

And psychologists and other scientists.

bruised reed

well as soon as you get into 'careful at generating' it's probably no longer a 'blanket statement'

Anonymous

1:02 PM

@bruisedreed I would add that the process of generating a generalized statement may contain blanket statements.

Daи

2:13 PM

@Anonymous BINGO! And some will even admit that

Paul Vargas

@Daи Hi, @Daи How are you?

Daи

@PaulVargas good, gotta run but will be back in a few, hope you are well also

Paul Vargas

@Daи Run!

Hi, @El'endiaStarman I do not know. What do you do? Where are you from?

Stack Exchange

wax eagle has added an event to this room's schedule.

Anonymous

@Daи So, why are you Orthodox Christian then?

I still see no problem with generating blanket statements within the process of generating more accurate, tentative generalized statements.

Daи

2:58 PM

@PaulVargas indeed! Had to do something at work, but I'm back now

@Anonymous because I believe they are the closest to the early Church, but even they fall short (and they'll admit it - while many others won't)

Anonymous

3:09 PM

@Daи What do you do?

Daи

@Anonymous I'm a tech geek, but I will soon be going back to school as a full-time student again (for the first time in over a decade)

Anonymous

@Daи In that case, I suppose a devoted Lutheran should pursue something extremely close to Luther's theology, even though he or she may fall short.

@Daи That means you're in your early thirties.

Daи

@Anonymous most Lutherans don't practice anything close to Luther's theology, again, a movement based on a namesake rarely follows its founder

Anonymous

@Daи I know, but I think Lutherans should practice something close to it.

Daи

@Anonymous if you assume that I went to college when most folks do, straight out of high school.

@Anonymous well, most Lutherans don't think so

Anonymous

3:14 PM

@Daи I see this is why you are elusive about your age. ;)

Daи

@Anonymous or perhaps I just don't care to divulge lots of personal information on the Internet - but I can be easily found by those who search. I'm not that hidden

Anonymous

@Daи Unlike most Lutherans, I still think most Lutherans should practice something close to Luther's theology.

Paul Vargas

@Anonymous Have you revealed your name here before? ;-)

Anonymous

@PaulVargas No.

Daи

@Anonymous there ya go

Anonymous

3:19 PM

@Daи But you revealed your name. ;)

Paul Vargas

@Anonymous Are you in college now?

Daи

@Anonymous I used to use my full name here, and I've even posted links to some of my publications before. I'm not hiding too much

Anonymous

@Daи Publications? You publish to where?

Daи

the need for obscuring my name is rapidly diminishing anyways. It was purely for professional reasons initially

@Anonymous academic journals

Anonymous

@Daи I see. So that means you are a professor. Professor of what?

Daи

3:23 PM

@Anonymous I did teach at a university, but not as a full-time job. I am going back to school to pursue my Ph.D. in the fall, however

Paul Vargas

@Anonymous A student does too.

Anonymous

@Daи Care to share your expertise?

Daи

@Anonymous I may teach when I finish the program, and I currently guest-lecture at several universities - but I enjoy being a practitioner

but I work full-time in the field in which I teach

Anonymous

In real life, people usually put their titles in front of or at the back of their names as a way to let others know that they deserve respect. On the Internet, this is impossible. :(

Daи

@Anonymous I don't, nor do I intend to ;)

@Anonymous I prefer to earn respect by demonstrating knowledge, skills, and abilities. There are folks with impressive degrees who are virtually clueless about their fields

3

Anonymous

3:28 PM

@Daи Well, if a person has a PhD from an Ivy League college or some other highly competitive college, then that would usually receive a lot of more attention than a person with bachelor's degree from a community college.

Daи

@Anonymous very true

svidgen

@Anonymous How about no degree, but a really super awesome website?

Anonymous

@Daи In the field of academia, especially in the humanities, it has been said that the alma mater from which the academic graduated is important.

Daи

@Anonymous it certainly says something about the quality of the education, but even so, a student will get out of an education what they put into it. There is no substitute for a student who is passionate about his or her subject matter and invests much time reading the relevant literature in the field.

and I say that as someone with a degree (and about to pursue another) from an R1 institution - a designation no longer used, now they just say 'very high research activity'

Anonymous

@Daи So, what is your field?

Daи

3:37 PM

@Anonymous computational linguistics as applied to digital forensics / information security

Anonymous

@Daи Okay. I am not sure what that means. It sounds very impressive, though.

Daи

Computational linguistics

Computational linguistics is an interdisciplinary field concerned with the statistical or rule-based modeling of natural language from a computational perspective. Traditionally, computational linguistics was usually performed by computer scientists who had specialized in the application of computers to the processing of a natural language. Computational linguists often work as members of interdisciplinary teams, including linguists (specifically trained in linguistics), language experts (persons with some level of ability in the languages relevant to a given project), and computer scie...

Anonymous

@Daи I see that your cultural Lutheran habits are kicking into this field, eh?

Daи

@Anonymous they certainly don't hurt :)

Anonymous

@Daи You did say that Lutherans are extremely meticulous about word choice. Coincidentally, you are pursuing this degree in Computational Linguistics.

It seems to me that you are more Lutheran than Orthodox.

Daи

3:44 PM

@Anonymous I've always been fascinated by language, even before I was cognizant of what it meant to be Lutheran

@Anonymous those are the types of generalized statements that simply make folks think you're ignorant ;)

Anonymous

@Daи I stress that limited knowledge produces an imperfect model.

And my statement is merely based on my limited knowledge.

Daи

@Anonymous a suggestion: making generalized statements about abstract ideas is often tolerated better than making generalized statements about people, especially those that attempt to classify them with oversimplified categories (and this latter can be perceived as 'rude')

Anonymous

To a person who is more knowledgeable, it is understandable why he or she would find faults in a person who is less knowledgeable. However, understanding, empathy, and compassion may come in handy.

bruised reed

@Anonymous if you familiarize yourself with the shenanigans that precipitated the council of Chalcedon, you will gain an appreciation of the Orthodox focus on 'appropriate word choice' - 'meticulous' doesn't sufficiently describe the mindsets that produced those Logomachaic machinations

Anonymous

@bruisedreed I stand corrected.

@Daи One explanation to why humans are susceptible to prejudice is that they can easily (but erroneously) simplify people into categories.

Daи

3:57 PM

@Anonymous from [an explanation of the Orthodox faith](http://oca.org/orthodoxy/the-orthodox-faith/doctrine/sources-of-christian-doctrine/revelation) "... all genuine strivings of men after the truth are fulfilled in Christ. Every genuine insight into the meaning of life finds its perfection in the Christian Gospel. Thus, the holy fathers of the Church taught that the yearnings of pagan religions and the wisdom of many philosophers are also capable of serving to prepare men for the doctrines of Jesus and are indeed valid and genuine ways to the one Truth of God.

if you think Lutherans are linguistically precise, as @bruisedreed pointed out concerning the formulation of Chalcedonian Christology, you should check out some ancient Greek philosophy ;)

Some of the linguistic precision in Orthodoxy is bewildering

however, Orthodox don't mind if folks word it incorrectly. The knowledge is accompanied with a maturity and charity which recognizes the appropriate time and place for linguistic precision

this often leads to an appreciation of silence, asking questions, and apophatic musings over and against making cataphatic statements

Anonymous

In any case, I do not think ignorant people should receive scorn. Maybe rebuke but only with the intention of self-improvement.

Daи

@Anonymous I don't feel anyone scorns you, that would be quite strong. I would be ignoring you rather than having this conversation if I didn't like you ;)

@Anonymous That's what you're receiving, feedback with the intent of helpful feedback. But when someone chooses to disregard feedback they continuously receive from multiple people, that person is often interpreted to be resistant to learning, and folks will eventually stop spending time on them because they will feel it is wasted effort

Anonymous

@Daи I interpret ignoring as scorn.

@Daи unless a miracle happens.

Daи

4:19 PM

@Anonymous and it could be, I can't speak for others. But I bet it is moreso mild annoyance than scorn for some folks ;)

@Anonymous well most people aren't here for miracles, they're here to have enjoyable chat :)

Paul Vargas

@Daи Yes, like me. ;-)

Anonymous

@Daи There was one TV episode on Arthur, where D.W. said "It's a miracle!" when she saw that the sandcastle had been saved from the rising tide the previous night. Then, Arthur returned, "It's not a miracle, D.W. The tide just hasn't come."

Daи

@Anonymous haha there ya go

Anonymous

I interpret miracles as something inexplicable.

Paul Vargas

4:37 PM

@Anonymous Have you seen this movie: Heaven Is For Real?

►

@Anonymous Or, have you read this book: 23 Minutes In Hell?

@Anonymous amazon.com/23-Minutes-In-Hell-Torment/dp/1591858828

@Anonymous However, I am skeptical about these two stories.

wax eagle

I'm very skeptical about anyone who claims to have seen the afterlife

Paul Vargas

@waxeagle I agree with you. :-)

bruised reed

you know @wax & @Paul both Jesus and the Apostle John would fit that bill - do they get a pass from your skepticsim?

Paul Vargas

4:53 PM

@bruisedreed The apostle John had a vision. After the apostolic era, there has been no genuine resurrections.

Many confuse resuscitation and resurrection.

@bruisedreed By the way, are you a non-cessationist?

bruised reed

@PaulVargas well that's hardly the terminology I would use lol, but technically yes.

Paul Vargas

@bruisedreed Do you know any genuine case of resurrection?

bruised reed

you seem to assume a 'mere' resuscitation would not involve some experience of the after-life - what is your basis for that belief?

AJ Henderson

@bruisedreed mostly the lack of well defined scriptural cases where it did.

Paul Vargas

@bruisedreed For those who claim such a thing, from a scientific perspective. have proved to be false.

AJ Henderson

5:00 PM

we don't hear Lazarus talking about what he saw.

Paul Vargas

Hi, @AJHenderson How have you been?

AJ Henderson

@PaulVargas pretty good, getting excited about September

(baby due)

got another ultrasound tomorrow morning

wax eagle

@AJHenderson this the 20 week one?

AJ Henderson

@waxeagle 31 week

wax eagle

@AJHenderson ah excellent, so you already know the sex?

AJ Henderson

5:02 PM

yeah, it's a boy

wax eagle

awesome

AJ Henderson

name is all picked out too, even has a website

bruised reed

@Paul if you mean resurrection in the 1 cor 15 sense, there is only one clear case that I know of so far, although its possible that Matt 27:52-53 is referring to others

Paul Vargas

@AJHenderson How is Cole?

AJ Henderson

@PaulVargas still not liking the medication, but still being social too

I'm nerdy enough that an actual requirement of naming my baby was that the domain name be available

4

luckily the first name we came up with was available

bruised reed

5:06 PM

@PaulVargas Lazarus, the widow of Nain's son, Jairus' daughter, Eutychus etc. were all resuscitated as opposed to being resurrected.

AJ Henderson

@bruisedreed how do you figure, Lazarus was dead for a couple of days. That would be quite the long time to appear dead before resuscitation

unless there is some other meaning you have for the terms

bruised reed

@PaulVargas I find your credulity of 'proof' in this regard somewhat disturbing. What do you think constitutes proof in an area like this?

@AJ the true sense of resurrection according to 1 Cor 15 is for corruption to be swallowed in incorruption - those who are resurrected do not get sick and suffer another physical death - they receive a glorified and eternal body

Paul Vargas

@bruisedreed Bilogical death. See What's the difference between clinical death and biological death?

bruised reed

well if you are merely talking of biological death, there are plenty of well-attested modern cases of that sort - you just need to do a little more research on the matter

AJ Henderson

@bruisedreed right, there are many resuscitation where someone was clinically dead but not yet biologically dead

the more common secular meaning of resuscitation vs resurrection is that of biological death

bruised reed

5:15 PM

this is a fairly well known case: heavensfamily.org/ss/…

AJ Henderson

so when Paul Vargas and I say resucitation, we mean someone who wasn't yet biologically dead

where as when we say resurrection, we mean someone who was biologically dead

or that's my understanding anyway

I suppose I shouldn't speak for Paul Vargas, but that's the impression I get from what he is saying

bruised reed

well in my view, both would be more correctly termed as resuscitations

AJ Henderson

@bruisedreed I would refer to that as sanctification

bruised reed

@AJ is that how the relevant word is translated in 1 cor 15 in your bible?

AJ Henderson

@bruisedreed my Bible is electronic and has multiple translations

bruised reed

5:20 PM

so... etc. in your bible**s**?

AJ Henderson

as far as the experience seeing heaven though, I have never been able to find a single scripture that links it with near death or death experiences. There is one passage where Paul refers to a man who had seen heaven, but it goes in to very little detail

and as I recall, I don't seem to remember it having any mention of him having had a near death experience

thus, I find the notion that we have observed people having crazy visions when they are near death and the brain is starting to shut down as far more likely explanations in leiu of any compelling Biblical evidence that seeing heaven is actually connected with coming near death

oh, I'm sorry, there is also an account of someone saying something during a stoning

I forgot about that one momentarily

but that wasn't really a general near death experience since he was still conscious and he actually did die.

and stay dead

well, atleast this body

you know what I mean

bruised reed

@AJ @Paul I would like to continue this conversation, but it will have to wait for another time. Preferably after I've also done a word study on ἀνάστασις (anastasis).

Paul Vargas

@bruisedreed Thank you. I will await your conclusions.

@AJHenderson I agree with that idea. :-)

Daи

5:59 PM

@waxeagle same here

Paul Vargas

6:18 PM

Hi, @Daи Are you familiar with the site: discerningtheworld.com I wonder if their analyzes are conscientious and reliable.

Daи

@PaulVargas nope, I have no idea

wax eagle

@PaulVargas well, considering it's highly disparaging of my particular doctrinal tradition, I wouldn't have anything good to say about it

AJ Henderson

7:06 PM

hmm, glad I'm not superstitious about numbers. my company got bought out on my birthday and I had stock options that they canceled and paid out... well it turns out I had exactly 666.666666.... shares of vested stock

2

TRiG

@AJHenderson patheos.com/blogs/slacktivist/2013/02/08/…

AJ Henderson

7:22 PM

@TRiG yeah, I know, that's why I find it amusing.

the middle 3 digits of my drivers license are also 666

which I'm pretty sure I've mentioned here before

I've even had DMV staff ask me if I wanted a new number before

to which I kindly decline since it isn't worth the headaches of having to update it everywhere it is used as an identification

and I really couldn't care less about it, other than finding it a mildly amusing conversation starter

which is generally a perk of it unless I'm feeling particularly anti-social

perhaps with random murderous tendencies....

err.. was that outloud

Paul Vargas

@waxeagle I quickly looked at the titles of the postings. I think it is against Calvinism. What did you see that you disliked?

TRiG

@AJHenderson No no, of course not. You never said it out loud. I just read your mind from across the ocean.

AJ Henderson

actually, I suppose since I'm typing, it really wasn't out loud

though I do have a noisy mechanical keyboard...

wax eagle

@PaulVargas literal millenialism, blantant anti-calvinist rhetoric, complete misunderstanding of Covenant theology re: Israel

(the anti-Tutu article was rather disturbing)

Daи

@waxeagle ahh, yeah that's no good

wax eagle

7:30 PM

And trying to ascribe any kind of Christian spiritual value to modern Israel is sad

4

Anonymous

Hexakosioihexekontahexaphobia

Hexakosioihexekontahexaphobia (derived from Ancient Greek roots ἑξακόσιοι [hexakósioi, "six hundred"], ἑξήκοντα [hexékonta, "sixty"], and ἕξ [héx, "six"]; literally meaning "fear of [the number] six hundred sixty-six") is the fear that originated from the Biblical verse Revelation 13:18, which indicates that the number is the Number of the Beast and the number of his name, linked to Satan or the Anti-Christ. Examples A prominent example is Nancy and Ronald Reagan who, in 1989, when moving to their home in the Bel-Air section of Los Angeles after the 1988 election, had its address—666 St...

wax eagle

(or even modern Judaism)

Anonymous

616 (number)

616 is the natural number following 615 and preceding 617. In mathematics 616 is the 25th member of the Padovan sequence, coming after 265, 351, 465 (it is the sum of the first two of these). 616 is a polygonal number in four different ways: it is a heptagonal number, as well as 13-, 31- and 104-gonal. It is also the sum of the squares of the factorials of 2,3,4. i.e. (2!)^2 + (3!)^2 + (4!)^2 = 4+36+576=616. The Roman numeral for 616, DCXVI, has exactly one occurrence of all symbols except for L whose value is less than 1000 (D=500, C=100, X=10, V=5, I=1). The Number of the Beast 61...

Crusades

The Crusades were military campaigns sanctioned by the Latin Roman Catholic Church during the High Middle Ages and Late Middle Ages. In 1095 Pope Urban II proclaimed the First Crusade with the stated goal of restoring Christian access to holy places in and near Jerusalem. Many historians and some of those involved at the time, like Saint Bernard of Clairvaux, give equal precedence to other papal-sanctioned military campaigns undertaken for a variety of religious, economic, and political reasons, such as the Albigensian Crusade, the Aragonese Crusade, the Reconquista, and the Northern Cru...

Apparently, Wikipedia asserts that medieval Christianity finds some sort of significance in Jerusalem.

The pope has a military? Cool!

wax eagle

7:52 PM

@Anonymous people have long held it significant for various reasons with varying degrees of theological accuracy

fredsbend

> No. No, no, no, 666 times no. Believers like Slonopas do not “take the book of Revelation literally” — they take the book of Revelation and cut it up into a thousand tiny pieces, placing those pieces into a hat along with a thousand more tiny pieces taken from Daniel, Ezekiel, parts of Matthew, the screenplay for The Omen, folklore, blood-libels, and urban legends. And then they take those pieces out of the hat one by one, stringing them into sentences to which they accord all the authority of holy scripture.

lol

> Scholars say the arrival of Islamic Antichrist prophecies was, well, predictable. …
Apocalyptic Christianity always needs an enemy, scholars say, and the Antichrist is nothing if not adaptable.

Antichrist of the Bible == Goldstein of 1984

Anonymous

9:23 PM

@waxeagle So, why do you say it's sad? What is so sad about significance?

fredsbend

10:20 PM

@AJHenderson Man, that's awesome. I don't think my wife would have gone for that as a reason to abandon the name we settled on. We are both nerdy enough to have googled it a couple times, though.

AJ Henderson

10:43 PM

@fredsbend yeah, my slightly less nerdy reasoning is that identity management is important and having your own domain is a useful tool for that

right now it is mostly just in the technical circles, but what is technical now will likely be common place in 20 years

wax eagle

11:30 PM

@Anonymous in no small part because it misunderstands the biblical story badly, and is reflective of bad theology

Anonymous

11:44 PM

@waxeagle Which biblical story are you talking about? How is it reflective of bad theology? How can you tell the difference between good and bad theologies?

@waxeagle Is it because you don't believe in an afterlife? That's okay. I don't believe in the afterlife either.

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