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2:05 AM
@ElendiaStarman @Caleb (most recently active mods/room owners) you guys can remove the pin on the meta post now that the room's been renamed :)
 
@DoubtingThomas Haha, yeah.
 
 
15 hours later…
4:54 PM
@StackExchange: I see what you did there... :P
 
5:12 PM
@ElendiaStarman what did it remove?
hey cool, since when am I a room owner?
 
@DoubtingThomas I'm not sure. But you better be careful since I can apparently remove you as room-owner. (The chat system is still a bit of a mystery to me.)
 
@JonEricson ...not if I remove you first... wreaks havoc and evil :P
I'm just glad I can pin important meta posts without pinging the other owners/mods all the time
 
@DoubtingThomas Seems like an example of the prisoners' dilemma.
 
@JonEricson googles ah. yes. of course.
 
I'm pretty sure neither of you can remove me as room-owner...
 
5:26 PM
@ElendiaStarman you mean old grumpy moderators...
 
@ElendiaStarman i'm never really sure what people mean by that face...
 
@DoubtingThomas It comes from anime and it generally denotes happiness. More so than :) or :D.
 
@ElendiaStarman ooh, okay. I always thought it was the same as -_-
 
@DoubtingThomas Haha, nope.
That link does have some language, so browse at your own discretion.
 
5:32 PM
@ElendiaStarman ...too late. thankfully, contrary to the wise opinions of internet experts everywhere, I have a profanity filter installed.
 
@DoubtingThomas Good for you. :P
Also, it's Urban Dictionary. If you didn't already know, you do now. :P
 
haha yeah.
the filter does wonders for YouTube comment pages...
 
Haha, I'll bet.
 
Hehehehehehehe.
 
5:41 PM
@DoubtingThomas I panicked and checked to see if Wikipedia was still up or not.
 
@JonEricson LOL.
 
@JonEricson funnest time-waster ever.
I'm trying it on that article now...
Getting to Philosophy -> Wikipedia -> Free Content -> Work of Art -> Aesthetics -> Philosophy
 
@DoubtingThomas It reminds my of the "why" questions I used to ask my parents as a child. If you follow the trail long enough, you always get back to God.
 
yeah
Why is the sky blue? <scientific answer here relating to how the sun interacts with atmosphere and how certain wavelengths of light are filtered>
Why does color exist?
<scientific answer about light and wavelength>
Why is there light?
<scientfic answer about electrons emitting light as they return to Ground state>
Why do electrons want to be in ground state?
<attraction between electrons and nucleus>
Why does electromagnetic force exist?
er...
God.
 
@DoubtingThomas It was interesting to watch chat live just now. That's just about how my parents answered. ;-)
 
5:50 PM
@DoubtingThomas A scientific alternate answer is "We live in a multiverse, and this one happened to be the one like that.". :P
 
@ElendiaStarman that's not really a scientific answer so much as a philosophical theory.
@JonEricson I can't wait to have kids and have these conversations :)
 
@DoubtingThomas Right you are. Science and philosophy have a pretty fuzzy border when it comes to the origin of the universe.
 
@ElendiaStarman which is why I find it rather funny that non-Christians think it's so anti-science that we believe in God
I can understand the ridicule of Creationism, which, I'll admit, seems rather outnumbered.
but when it comes to the origin of the universe... we're talking about the BEGINNING OF EVERYTHING, people...
 
Hey, ever heard of the fine-tuning of the universe?
 
@ElendiaStarman nope, what's that?
 
5:59 PM
@DoubtingThomas That phrase refers to how a whole bunch of fundamental physical constants are at just the right "setting" to allow life. If you tweaked any of them juuuust a bit one way or the other, no life would exist.
I did some math a while ago and found that for a particular set of five of said constants, the degree of fine-tuning was like getting a 1 on every single one of over 100,000 6-sided die.
On the first roll, that is.
Five out of like 22. It's ridiculous, and it's awesome. Some of the strongest evidence for a Creator out there.
 
@ElendiaStarman ahh, so I have heard of it, just not by name.
It's fascinating
grabs chemistry book
 
@DoubtingThomas It is indeed!
@DoubtingThomas Chemistry?
 
@ElendiaStarman well darn, I can't find it, but I was going to quote it on the probability of all the right proteins evolving and being present
the probability of the simplest protein on earth evolving by chance just right is like getting a Royal Flush 22 times in a row.
 
@DoubtingThomas Ooooh, niiice...
Also, evolution doesn't apply to pre-life.
 
yeah; there may be a strong case for Evolution as opposed to Creationism, but when it comes to the beginning, Intelligent Design wins.
 
6:06 PM
Intelligent Design doesn't apply pre-life either. :P
 
I meant ID as in ex nihilo creation
 
Well, not if you think of it as being the "opposite" of (Darwinistic) evolution.
 
 
1 hour later…
7:34 PM
@DoubtingThomas It's also still pinned in the "community bulletin" on the main site.
@ElendiaStarman It's called the anthropic principle.
 
@TRiG yeah not sure who's in charge of that; probably mods.
 
@DoubtingThomas Yes. And that's how we know it didn't evolve by chance. Evolution doesn't happen by chance. It happens by natural selection.
 
@TRiG still seems pretty lucky :)
 
@DoubtingThomas And that's the anthropic principle.
 
@TRiG which seems to point to Intelligence, no?
 
7:39 PM
@DoubtingThomas Actually, no.
For a start, we don't actually know how fine-tuned this universe is. If things were a little different, life as we know it wouldn't exist. What does that mean?
 
@TRiG right; life as we know. But that's the only life we know. Even if there is another type of life, tweaking just a few things would still eradicate our existence.
 
@TRiG so while that's certainly not incontrovertible proof (and I don't really think science can find any such proof of God), it definitely points to God.
 
@DoubtingThomas An artifical god? Yup. Magical thinking. We all do it.
But hey, pigeons and chimps are superstitious too. Why should we be exempt?
 
@TRiG you can't just label an assumption as "artificial" because you're biased against it. Just because thinking seems "magical" doesn't mean that it's end isn't true.
and yet this debate is going nowhere, really. "the folly of what we preach" is "foolishness to men"
So I don't at all expect to convince you :)
 
7:45 PM
@DoubtingThomas I think you misunderstood me.
 
@TRiG my bad. clarify?
 
I posted a link to a lecture, because of something interesting in it about puddles and the anthropic principe.
You may have noticed?
And the title of the lecture was, "Is there an Artificial God?"
It's by Douglas Adams, and it's rather good.
So I had the phrase in my mind.
 
oh okay
yeah i've bookmarked that; looks interesting. i'll read it soon :)
 
Also, "magical thinking" is not just a disparaging phrase or an insult. It has a specific meaning. And, indeed, we all do it.
I have that in my mind too at the moment, because I've been reading a book about alternative medecine, which largely relies on magical thinking.
Evaluating evidence properly and dispassionately is hard, and none of us do it consistently.
 
@TRiG for sake of cheekiness, if we all do it, what's to say a reasonable, logical, scientific explanation isn't actually magical thinking? That, in hindsight 200 years from now, we'll all scoff at today's mindset?
 
7:51 PM
 
@TRiG excellent point :)
 
@DoubtingThomas Three good articles there. In fact, the entire content of that blog post is something I once said here in chat. And then I thought to myself, "three links to good, interesting articles, tied together fairly neatly: that should go on my links blog". So I did.
 
nice :)
 
in Article of the Week, Apr 3 at 17:31, by TRiG
@PeterTurner Of course. Everyone believes in unprovable things. Rationalisation is part of the human condition. And yes, atheists are human too. Let us not forget that humans are fallible.
 
also bookmarked - i'll ping you with any thoughts when i'm finished reading - gotta get back to Physics homework for now..
 
7:57 PM
@DoubtingThomas And I have train tickets to book. See you!
 
 
2 hours later…
9:30 PM
Hey @TRiG
 
@Flimzy Hi.
 
LTNS... How's it going?
 
@Flimzy LTNS. This is a ETLA with which I am not familiar.
Ah. Got it.
 
long time, no see :)
Sorry, probably an Americanism
 
(it made me think too :p)
 
9:32 PM
@Flimzy I managed to interpret it with some thought. Yes, indeed. And yet we've both been around here, if perhaps a little less than previously.
@MarcGravell Hi!
 
@MarcGravell: Sorry 'bout that... didn't mean to make you think today.
 
@Flimzy It's going fairly well. Currently preparing for a UK trip at the beginning of next month. Finally got accommodation sorted and most of my trains booked last night.
Hay-on-Wye, here we come!
 
Sounds fun. I may be in the UK later this year... probably August, if all pans out.
 
@Flimzy I'll be in Birmingham in August, for the Discworld Convention.
I've got my convention tickets bought, but not my accommodation or travel.
 
Mmm... I'm sure you will enjoy that far more than I would :)
 
9:36 PM
@Flimzy I've been to Ireland 2009, Birmingham 2010, Ireland 2011, and now Birmingham 2012.
 
if either of you fancy some crappy UK food and a pint, I'm not far from either of those
 
Birmingham is the big International Con, and happens every second year, and in the off years there are loads of smaller conventions in other countries.
 
( Ah, just realised both locations were TRiG )
 
@MarcGravell I'm in Hay only for a day, for a Tim Minchin concert at the opening of the Hay Festival. Then I'm in London.
@MarcGravell So you're somewhere nearish to the Welsh borders?
 
Indeed. About 15 miles on the England side. Hilly. Trees.
 
9:39 PM
@MarcGravell Pleasant.
 
The minchin thing looked great - I almost booked, but... getting cover for the kids etc is non-trivial.
Eldest has ASD and needs a bit of ... Planning and preparation :)
 
@MarcGravell Ah, yes. I suppose getting a childminder is tricky. What age group?
 
Awesome.
6, with the easy going mood of a sulky teenager
 
@MarcGravell Hmm.
 
Smart - normal bell-curve, but really good at picking up which "buttons to push", and figuring out what he can do that can't be ignored
 
9:43 PM
@MarcGravell I might be able to look you up at the end of August, when I'll be in Birmingham. For this upcoming trip I'll mainly be in Nodnol. And just for a couple of days: heading back on Tuesday.
 
He out-manoeuvres our carefully planned strategies :)
 
@MarcGravell Ah. Smart and dangerous.
 
Have fun though
 
@Flimzy Where in the UK? What'll you be up to?
@MarcGravell I fully intend to. I'm bringing a friend who's not familiar with Tim Minchin and who's never been to London. Should be fun.
Also, it'll be a nice change to travel in company. I've got very used to doing that trip on my own.
 
@TRiG: Still to be determined. I've never been to Europe at all. I have friends to visit in Paris and Liepzig, then from there I'll spend 2-4 months just seeing whatever I fancy.
 
9:47 PM
@Flimzy Eurostar's fairly cheep if you book it a couple of months in advance.
@Flimzy Have you looked up Eurail?
 
Good to know. No, I haven't looked up Eurail
Now I have. :) It looks pretty interesting
 
"15 days within 2 months" might be my best deal
 
Actually, I lost that, bought it again, and then found the original. So now I have two. That's the one I brought InterRailing with me. The one I bought more recently is more up to date.
 
So which one do you recommend?
I'll add it to my amazon wish list
 
9:52 PM
@Flimzy I met a few people doing Eurail when I was doing InterRail. (InterRail is cheaper, but is available only to European residents.)
 
Ah
 
@Flimzy Oh, always buy the latest. It's just that the sixteenth edition, which coincidentally happens to be the first one I bought, was also the first to show up on DuckDuckGo.
 
ah, okay
 
Also, if you intend to travel by train at all, read The Man in Seat 61. It's an awesome website.
 
I think I've seen that before. Thanks, I'll read it over more thoroughly before I travel.
 
9:57 PM
@Flimzy I enjoy telling people that I've travelled on the Orient Express (true).
 
nice
 
@Flimzy Well, it was a comfortable modern European Night Train. And unlike most night trains, I didn't have to pay an extra reservation fee: it was included in my InterRail pass.
In case there's any confusion, this was not the Venice Simplon Orient Express.
 

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