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1:23 AM
@oAlt That's actually fair. In Korea, you're considered "1" when you're born and gain a year every New Year's, regardless of your birthday. It is indeed possible he can be in 6th grade and thirteen, at least from where he is.
 
yea
 
Yup
Not saying they're from Korea, but it's not uncommon to other places
 
agreed
 
@oAlt What country are you from?
 
in The Sphinx's Lair, Oct 23 at 9:16, by oAlt
Part of my confusion was that-- I guess I'm officially spoiling where I am but-- seeing that we write peso as "₱", I'm more familiar with that :0
:D
 
1:29 AM
Ah, Phillipines?
I initially was like "Mexico"? but your timezone was way to different from where I was (California) to make sense :P
 
oh yeah, korean age is really interesting - i think china does something similar?
 
@PrinceNorthLæraðr (yeah)
 
@Deusovi I wouldn't be surprised, considering Korea borrows a TON of culture from China
 
 
18 hours later…
7:40 PM
O/
 
hey! what's up
 
Hey!
So I'm trying to study ahead for this unit and I'm um not sure what's going on
I've been reading the textbook over and it's like that sort of thing where you read it, and you look up and go "what did I just read"?
I guess I could start with the "addition and subtraction" formula for sine, cosine, and tangent
 
alright, go on?
 
The sin(a+b)=sin(a)cos(b)+cos(a)sin(b)
They prove it in the textbook, but I have zero understanding of what they did
(well they prove the equation for cosine so I guess I'll drop that one down instead)
 
okay, so first of all - do you know the geometric interpretation of sine and cosine
 
7:44 PM
You mean the unit circle?
 
yeah, and how it relates to the "sine is opposite over hypotenuse..." thing
 
(I'll be leaving this to Deus, if that's okay North?)
 
(That's fine)
So sine is the "y" value, and cosine is the "x" value. This is because (drawing now real quick)
 
yep!
 
And then tan is opp/adj which is sin/cos= y/x, which is also known as "slope"
 
7:51 PM
right
so - you technically don't need to know how the proofs work to use the formulas, but it's useful to get a general understanding of how they work because (1) you can re-derive them if you forget the formulas, and (2) it helps you with similar things
i assume you're asking for help understanding the proof they give
 
i'm not sure of the one they give but i've found one that seems pretty understandable
 
Hold on I gotta process this
 
7:55 PM
so, we want to find cos(α+β) and sin(α+β). the natural way to do this is to make a triangle with hypotenuse 1, where one of its angles is α+β
 
actually let me simplify the picture
you see the right triangle with angle α+β?
 
so i've made it share a side with a right triangle with angle just β
that's the top of the two solid triangles
and then under that, i put a right triangle with angle just α
 
Wait the triangle with angle b is a right?
 
7:57 PM
hm?
ah yes
i specifically made sure it was a right triangle
 
Oh okay. I couldn't tell if it was
 
by tilting my head a little to the left (to be precise, angle β to the left), and then dropping a vertical line from the top point down onto the middle line
 
Ohhhh, I was looking at the wrong triangle
 
ahh yeah my bad
should've been clearer
so, there are three right triangles -- one with its Important Angle being α+β, one with β, and one with α
 
8:00 PM
i started with the α+β one, and then built the β one using that length-1 side, and then the α one using the bottom of the β triangle
 
(processing)
Yes
 
so, we're looking to find the height and width of my starting triangle -- the one with the big angle
 
i've marked two of the sides with question marks - can you tell me their lengths?
 
(let me get my charger and think)
 
8:04 PM
alright - i might have to leave for 15 to 20 minutes or so to eat
 
The questions mark to the far right is just sin(b)
the other question mark is cos(b)
 
yep!
now what about these two? these might be a bit trickier
 
well it could be tan(a)=?/? though that's entirely unhelpful
sin(a)=?/cos(b) which is cos(b)*sin(a)=?
And cos(a)=?/cos(b) which is cos(a)*cos(b)=?
 
yep!
now i've drawn another red triangle
can you tell me the two red side lengths?
 
(processing)
 
8:09 PM
this might be trickier - first of all, what is the top angle of this triangle?
 
Well the top angle without being intersected by length Q is b-90
 
i'll call the angle gamma
(moving to mobile now btw, responses will be a bit slower)
 
Okay
Oh, it's beta because they're similar triangles, right?
Orr
Let me grab my paper
Ohh wait I'm getting it
 
this one might be a bit tricky - it wasn't immediately obvious to me what it was
 
8:14 PM
it helps to remember that that top-right edge is perpendicular to the middle line
 
gamma=90-a?
 
does that look like 90-a to you?
 
Wait
I set the equation up wrong
urm... gamma=alpha?
 
yep!
one way to see this is that both sides of the gamma angle are 90° from both sides of the alpha angle
 
8:21 PM
using the right-angle marker below the Q, and the tilted right-angle marker
 
I did it by setting 90-b+a+gamma=90-b and the moving the variables around
 
(on mobile, can't draw - hopefully that's clear?)
 
(specifically the one at the very bottom below the Q, not the red one)
 
8:22 PM
if you need any pictures, I might be able to whip them up
 
your method works too! just showing you that there's another way to see it, and it might be clearer visually. i know thinking visually helps me a lot more than equations
so, how that you know gamma is secretly just alpha, can you find the lengths of Q and R?
 
R is sin(a)cos(b) and Q is cos(a)cos(b)
Wait, but they're obviously not the same lengths
 
glad you caught that! sanity checks like that are really good to have
 
So, clearly, they're proportional, but somehow not equal?
Ohhhh wait
It's because I forgot about the hypotenuse
 
yep, it's the alpha triangle but shrunken to a different size
 
8:27 PM
It's not cos(b), it's sine of beta
I gotta set up my proportions now
So Q=cos(a)sin(b)
R=sin(a)*sin(b)
 
yep!
 
Let me guess, we're gonna draw another right triangle
 
(back on pc, making diagram)
nope - now we're gonna go back to the very first one
it's time to ask the question you always ask after a bunch of angle chasing - "what was the point of all of this again"
 
ooh I see it and that's cool
 
8:33 PM
Oh, I think I knwo where you're going with this
 
go on?
 
We're gonna add them up! Or well, move the variables around a bit
 
define "them"
 
Let me try to process my thought
 
interesting! and how do you propose we do so
here's a reminder of where we're at
 
8:34 PM
So cos(a+b) is cos(a)cos(b)-sin(a)sin(b)
And sin(a+b) is... uh oh
oh
found it
 
oh?
 
sin(a+b)= cos(a)sin(b)+sin(a)cos(b)
 
yep!
 
I paniced for a second because I was like wait we don't know what Q-(that long side is!)
oooh that's really neat
 
and that's the proof!
 
8:36 PM
My textbook started to plug in random numbers and used the distance formula and my brain shutdown after seeing squareroots
 
understandable
 
and the sin(2a) and cos(2a) formulas are easy to get from the addition formulas
 
honestly i never understood the proof before today - i just had that "brain shutdown" thing too
i think now that i know this one, it's a lot clearer - the toughest step is seeing that that red angle is really alpha
 
@bobble sin(a+a) and cos(a+a) and then just expand that out?
 
yep!
and now it's time for the subtraction formulas! there are two ways to go about this.
1: we can draw another diagram and do more angle chasing
2: we can just use the formula we already have, and think about the properties of sine and cosine
 
8:39 PM
(I think I'd rather prefer to use the formula we have)
 
so would i
drawing another diagram seems like a lot of work, and i am firmly in the anti-work camp
 
So cos(a+b)=cos(a)cos(b)-sin(a)sin(b)
Subtracting is just cos(a+(-b)
Heh, you beat me to it
 
go on
 
That becomes cos(a)cos(-b)-sin(a)sin(-b)
Cosine is an even function, so cos(-b) is cos(b)
Sin is an odd function, so sin(-b)=-sin(b)
 
yep, looks good!
 
8:41 PM
that becomes cos(a)cos(b)+(-sin(a))*(-sin(b)), but negative times a negative is a positive, so we can rewrite that as cos(a)cos(b)+sin(a)sin(b)
 
and there's the formula!
and you can do the same thing for sin(a-b)
 
Yup!
We can derive the tangent addition/subtraction from our diagram above, right?
 
yep!
you can just divide cos(a+b) by sin(a+b)
 
Ah
I'm just going to write it out instead of typing it
 
sounds good
and now that you have the subtraction formulas, you can derive the super rare "cos(0a)" and "sin(0a)" formulas
 
8:44 PM
Huh?
Oh
cos(a-a)
 
another fun thing I did with these formulas was "prove" sin(0) and cos(0) by using the subtraction formulas with b = a
 
(that's exactly what i was leading up to)
also (a-a) looks like a weird emote to me
 
sorry my internet sent that message late
 
cos(a-a)=cos(a)cos(a)+sin(a)sin(a)? 2cos(a)+2sin(a)? But cos(0) is undefined
 
ah ok
hm? cos(0) isn't undefined
and that's not 2cos(a) -- it's (cos(a))²
(and ditto for sin)
 
8:46 PM
Wait I'm confusing myself
Tangent of (pi/4) is undefined ack
 
yeah, sin and cos are nice functions - the other ones are sometimes undefined
so, cos(a-a) = (cos(a))² + (sin(a))²
does that right side look familiar?
 
and now you've successfully proved that cos(0)=1 in an incredibly overcomplicated way! hooray!
 
but yeah there you go - that's how you get the angle addition and subtraction formulas
 
8:50 PM
There's now part 2 where it involves inverse sine and cosine (that is, arcsine and arccosine, not secant and cosecant)
But I gotta go eat
Thank you!
 
no problem!
in case you're curious, here's what the same diagram looks like for the subtraction formulas
 
that's certainly a diagram
 
it's basically taking the one we had, but "folded" along the line with length cos(β). and they drew the top and left lines that i took out
(this image comes from cut-the-knot.org/triangle/SinCosFormula.shtml, which also has an alternate proof relying on the area of a triangle)
 
 
2 hours later…
10:50 PM
I have to confess I've always hated that way of proving the addition and subtraction formulas. It only works for angles in particular ranges, and it perpetuates the WRONG idea that trigonometry is about triangles. (It isn't, it's about circles. (cos t, sin t) are the coordinates of a point moving anticlockwise in a circle of radius 1 about the origin with velocity 1.)
 
How would you prove the formulas?
 
I suspect the nicest way uses complex numbers, but no one teaches complex numbers before trigonometry. (I think that's a mistake too.)
So I propose instead to think about rotations in the plane.
Ideally, this would be done after introducing matrices; I'm not sure whether that's usually done before or after trigonometry.
 
no one teaches complex numbers before trigonometry unless you have a dad who was a math professor and wrote a thesis that involved complex equations. so me.
(though I never cared much for proofs - I just memorized this stuff)
 
So, what happens when you take the point (x,y) in the plane and rotate it anticlockwise through an angle t? Answer: you get the matrix (cos t -sin t; sin t cos t) times (x; y) where ";" means "new line" so (x; y) is a column vector. (Or you can write it out in formulae for old and new x, if you don't know about matrices.)
So now do that for the angles alpha, beta, alpha+beta and note that rotating through alpha+beta has to be the same thing as rotating through alpha and then through beta.
And now setting the relevant things to equal one another immediately gives you the formulae for cos(A+B) and sin(A+B).
Using A and -B instead of A and B gives you the difference formulae too.
No complicated diagrams with possibly-unexpected construction lines; you just do the obvious thing at each step and it works out :-).
 
You lost me when you started rotating things and matrices appeared out of thin air. D:
 
10:59 PM
Yeah, obviously this is no good if you haven't already covered rotation matrices. But I think the best path to proving the cos(A+B) etc. formulas goes via understanding rotation matrices first. Or maybe complex numbers, which can do something similar a bit more neatly.
Though I think the best way to get there neatly with complex numbers also requires a bit of calculus, which again people don't generally teach before trigonometry though I think they kinda should.
(More precisely: they should, for people who are eventually going to learn both and have an interest in pure mathematics. Of course that's far from being everyone.)
 
How would you structure a kindergarten-to-college math curriculum, if you could?
 
I don't have an answer to that all worked out. But it would definitely be more than one curriculum, doing things in a different order depending on where you're headed and what stuff you're eventually going to learn.
E.g., I think it can be true that if you're going to learn either A or B but not both then you should learn A, and also that if you are going to learn both then you should learn B firts.
*first
 
how would people know if they want to/will learn A and B?
 
In practice, that will probably be decided for them by the education system, on the basis of things like asking them whether they want to do subject X next year, or looking at how well they do in exams. That's not optimal but it's suboptimal in the same way as most things in education are suboptimal.
 
how early would you want people to start splitting up and learning different things?
 
11:12 PM
Not sure. (There's a tradeoff between making decisions that are better for each child and introducing extra complexity to the system, which may reduce the resources available for actual teaching and cause other problems.)
Again, I haven't sat down and tried to devise a complete mathematics curriculum, and doubtless if I did I'd discover lots of difficulties I've never even thought of.
 
I'm finding your thoughts on this fascinating.
 
They're pretty vague :-).
The sort of situation I have in mind with "A and/or B" is this: A is some practically-useful thing that you can learn how to do practically-useful things with by following fairly simple procedures. B is something related that's more general, more abstract, more accurate, etc., but also more difficult. If you learn B first then you will understand A better and not just be following rote procedures. But not everyone needs to know about B, and maybe not everyone is capable of understanding it.
(I don't believe that in general you should learn more abstract/general things first. Often the generalized abstractions are much easier to make sense of once you've seen concrete examples. The best process if you have plenty of time and motivation is probably to start concrete, then look at the bigger picture, then return to the concrete level with better understanding.)
 
11:52 PM
@GarethMcCaughan I mean, it is called trigonometry, I assumed the "trig" was like "triangle"
 
it is! and that's a historical mistake - it's much more about circles than triangles
@GarethMcCaughan yes, i agree that the proof there is not ideal - i prefer the complex number (or rotation matrix) derivation too. but i wasn't sure if north knew about complex numbers, and he did ask about the proof in his book (so i tried to find something close to whatever his book did)
 
That's... actually very true. Triangle triognometry was more stuff I learned in Geometry
I learned that in order to solve triangles, you make more triangles
 
but i do think that proof works more generally, as long as you suitably adapt the notion of "distance" to oriented distances
 
I know about complex numbers!
 
(and likewise for oriented angles, and shapes in the plane)
oh! then there's a MUCH easier version of all of this
 
11:54 PM
Oh
 
one that your book probably won't tell you because it's Secret Forbidden Knowledge
2
 
(aka "it's too hard to re-explain complex numbers so we don't bother")
 
What is this Secret Forbidden Knowledge?
 
so, have you heard of the complex exponential
well, backing up, have you heard of the number e
 
11:56 PM
Vaguely. It has to do with logarithms and is like the "natural" part of natural log
Euler's number
 
you know it's important for exponentiation
 
I forgot what it's used for. Stats?
I forgot what it does
 
and logarithms, which are undoing exponentials
 
it has... a bunch of different ways to characterise it, and there's no best way to go about it
 
11:56 PM
you can annoy math teachers by pronouncing it "you-lers number"
 
(Oh... I thought that's how you pronounce it)
 
(it's pronounced like "oiler")
 
Ah. It's the sum of stuff and factorials
I do remember the taylor series for it
 
wait you know taylor series???
 
@Deusovi For the avoidance of doubt, I wasn't at all suggesting that you were wrong to explain that proof -- as you say, it's likely the one North has been shown.
 
11:58 PM
oh man this is gonna be even easier then
 
@Deusovi Very, very, very basic Taylor series. As in
 
[somewhat AFK right now]
 
sin=x-x^3/3!+x^5/5! etc, cos(x)=1-x^2/2!+x^4/4! etc., and e=1+x+x^2/2!+x^3/3!, etc. That is pretty much all I know about Taylor's
 
well, good news! that is all you need to know for this
 

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