TRPG General Chat - 2022-11-30

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3:22 AM

I'm looking at this question, and trying to figure out if liches are able to beat the humble second-level Pass Without Trace. I think the answer is no, unless they get suspicious enough to make a perception check, and I find that hilarious.

82

A: How can my level 3 party defeat a group of Liches?

Nothing. You do nothing. A single lich will kill your party and eat their souls for breakfast. It isn't possible. As a 3rd level character, there is absolutely nothing you can do to defeat a lich, barring your DM intervening with some Deus Ex Machina. A lich has a challenge rating of 21. Based on...

Not that the party in question can cast Pass Without Trace, or for that matter the all-important Heat Metal, unless that's a forge cleric. And the lichs have too many spell slots to not Dispel Magic themselves, unless they're paranoid enough to think that it's all a ploy to get them to Dispel themselves.

11 hours later…

1:56 PM

@Phoenices A lich's passive perception is 19.

Encountered in their lair, a lich would almost certainly have a reliable method of detecting unauthorized entry.

> Everything about a lich’s lair reflects its keen mind and wicked cunning, including the magic and mundane traps that secure it. Undead, constructs, and bound demons lurk in shadowy recesses, emerging to destroy those who dare to disturb the lich’s work.

Oh, for sure; any lich that doesn't have an Alarm or Magic Mouth or something is very strange.

2:22 PM

9

A: Are the names of game features rules text or merely flavor?

"Some spells and class features have figurative, not literal, names." This question is answered directly in the Sage Advice Compendium: I find it confusing that the mage armor spell is named that when it doesn’t count as armor. Some spells and class features have figurative, not literal, names. ...

@ThomasMarkov also, in point of fact, the armor provided by mage armor is not only not armor, it is also not, itself, a mage

9

2:58 PM

user image

It's not always that obvious. I mean, there's zone of truth, the spell you cast when you want the DM to start lying to you.

And friends, the spell you cast when you want to make enemies.

I mean, has this actually come up in real life as a problem?

I debated about closing as opinion-based because how a name is interpreted is everything here.

@NautArch "Does mage armor count as armor" is a real question. "Does tavern brawler work if I step outside the tavern" is not.

Hot RPG Questions

1

Q: Are the names of game features rules text or merely flavor?

For spell descriptions consensus is that all the text is rules text, that the game in fact does not distinguish between flavor and rules. How about the names of spells or of other game features? Are these rules text, or are they pure flavor and can they be disregarded when trying to understand ho...

@ThomasMarkov exactly. If there's a real question - ask that. This seems more like a thought exercise.

@GroodytheHobgoblin I also do need to ask when you decide to read the literally and when you decide to read them liberally. Your Qs and As are all over the place and I really don't understand how/when you draw the line. It makes understanding your approach difficult.

3:05 PM

"I have a player who argues at the table that spell names should have some part in determining their effects. What do?" is a good question, especially if that really happened to you.

4

^^

But the Tavern Brawler example is so obviously contrived that it makes the question seem disingenuous.

@ThomasMarkov Skills learned from brawling in taverns are transferable to brawls in other environments. Hitting someone with a chair isn't principally dependent on whether the target is drunk

@ThomasMarkov "This is a playstyle issue, here's how to work it out for your table"

Though what spell and what effect seems an important context to give

Whoa, like an actual problem? :D

Switching hat to amateur game-designer: there is an interesting notion re this for what names are and do in a game

3:17 PM

@Someone_Evil I'm pretty sure it's already being done like that :P

Use of puns, etc.

Chill touch, as was tangented in the comments, is the prime example for misleading names

@Someone_Evil Except, as also shown in comments, it can be read to make sense and not be misleading.

WHich is why I"m leaning more to VTC, but pretty sure it'll be reopend anyway so not touching it.

@NautArch There aren't a lot of puns per se, are there?

@Someone_Evil /shrug

Figures of speech, too. Mostly your idea that the name can be evocative of both mechanics and/or feel.

There a lot of references (chill touch, shield of faith) which a way of making the name Evoke what the feature is representing

3:20 PM

Right, and you can interpret representation variably.

@NautArch It's still misleading if the first read or association is off mark, and as far as I'm aware to many it's riding a "oh, right, it's not a melee cold damage spell, it's the other thing"

Naming something also mean you can refer to them, and having good names mean the reference is sufficient to communicate the effect (or whatever)

At it's extreme for that last point there's difference between "I cast haste" and "I cast spell#231". It's rather obvious that one of those is easier to play with than the other

There's a second notion that might be relevant re that Q and which I don't know a name for (ironically)

In some cases players might ask "My character is a [elf/rogue/noble/drunkard/etc.] so would they know/have advantage/etc?"

And some extent Feats (some more than others) might also fall into that, in which case the feats name (as the bearer of it's flavour) is doing something mechanically

Though arguably it's more the player incorporating the feat's flavour as notable parts of the character

@Someone_Evil I'm not sure I totally understand but asking a DM for circumstantial advantage is always a thing.

But ultimately, the mechanics are listed, and trying to add to the list with something not in the list (it's name) is 100% questionable.

But in that case, there's usually a reason for it - and it's that reason that makes a good question here.

3:37 PM

Let's try: "Gil has the Tavern Brawler feat, so would they know how to intimidate these guys into backing down?" "Sure, roll Charisma (Intimidation) with advantage"

@Someone_Evil DM: Are they proficient in Intimidation?

A DM could do that, absolutely.

I'm not quite sure what you're going for.

It's a Name adding a mechanical effect, admittedly not one 5e defines well (beyond "The DM decides) which makes it a playstyle thing (though possibly a very common one)

@Someone_Evil Well, the name isn't "Tavern Intimidator", it's "Tavern Brawler" I'm not sure how you could read that as advantage on intimidation. If a player asked, I'd probably ask how they're doing it and maybe grant it. BUt it wouldn't be an always-on thing.

But that's how I'd rule on that, and that's very opinion-based.

I would've thought intimidation is an important part of tavern brawling, but I've never partaken and it isn't repped in the feat's written effects

Exactly - it's the written effects that matter.

ANything not written is up to a table.

3:50 PM

I feel obliged to point out that how to handle (say how strictly to adhere) to the as written is also a playstyle factor, though if others are to help we'd need to know what interpretation you/they are using (and we'd take the cycle back to actual problem as read)

@Someone_Evil If we can answer questions here that are just supported with "it's the way I read it and I just think it works like that", then I think that's a problem.

RAW is a playstyle, but answering a rules question with an opinion isn't a great option.

Which does return us back to clearly stating the problem - which this question doesn't do.

I was more trying to say that "The rules say this, and you must play that way" isn't appropriate

I don't think that's how our Q and As work.

It's the rules answer, but it isn't necessarily what you have to do.

Of course any question can be answered with do whatever you like.

@NautArch Right, if a question asks how X+Y work with no additional modifiers, it's (implicitly) asking for the rules as written

But we can also handle questions which ask "we handle X in this way, how does Y work out?" (and things to that effect)

Though there's a fair number of cases that are "Undefined; ask your DM/work it out as a group"

And which one is this?

3:57 PM

This latest, don't know. Slightly out of pattern

I suppose since it's sorta approaching it academically (I'm getting that from the ref to "consensus"), it's looking for as written, but that doesn't seem wholly applicable

I've voted to close. I believe @GroodytheHobgoblin needs to clarify. If you can't even figure it out, then maybe it should be closed?

@NautArch I've answered the question, but I don't know that I've solved the problem, if there even is a problem, since history suggests this may just be an exercise in reading comprehension.

Hot RPG Questions

4:20 PM

5

Q: Can I use Metamagic on a Scroll?

If I have a scroll in my hand, can I use metamagic on it? Metamagic says I cannot use other actions: You must use a metamagic action directly before Casting the Spell you want to alter. If you use any action (including free actions and reactions) other than Cast a Spell directly after, you waste...

spells magic-items spellcasting pathfinder-2e metamagic

@GroodytheHobgoblin I do not want to engage in comments, happy to chat here, but you can see the convo about your question if you scroll up.

Groody the Hobgoblin

4:37 PM

@NautArch Hi Nautarch understand but I am somewhat busy with work today (and we have game night tonight). I expect the Q will be closed now, as once you start that process, someone usually also votes close, and we are already at 4 votes.

So I have no time right now for extended discussions.

I think the question is fine to stay open. I just dont think it's a great question.

Groody the Hobgoblin

Thanks, Thomas. I'll try go provide a more in depth backstory of the background when I have a bit more time. Have a great day!

@GroodytheHobgoblin It's less in-depth backstory of the background and more whta is the specific issue you found? What spell/ability has created this question?

I'm guessing there was a specific thing that came up,and then you may have generalized it to make it more applicable to others.

For example, mage armor:

12

Q: Does Mage Armor count as armor for the monk's class features?

Does Mage Armor counts as armor in the sense of Monk's Martial Arts or Unarmored Movement requirements? Both features require you to not be wearing armor. (I already know that Mage Armor and Unarmored Defense do not stack but this is a different situation.)

dnd-5e monk class-feature armor

5:09 PM

Mage Armor would not count as armor. It's just a different way of calculating AC.

Depending on ability scores, Mage Armor would be worse than Unarmored Defense for the monk, as 13+Dex has a very good chance of not beating 10+Dex+Wis if built somewhat correctly

oh wait, i just read the room wrong, didn't i?

Not sure whether you did, but I don't think anyone here was currently confused by it :)

well, that's certainly a relief.

4 hours later…

9:37 PM

@doppelgreener Lay on Hands isn't a Paladin ability for beating the crap out of someone?

And Turn Undead doesn't give me bone powers?!

This game is a rip-off.

Next, they're gonna tell me Monks can't stop a nuclear war with Deflect Missiles.

That last one sucked. I should have gone with "Next they're gonna tell me Monk's Stunning Strike doesn't look fabulous!"

AncientSwordRage

10:04 PM

@Axoren it allows chickens to lay eggs on hand with advantage

"My Danger Sense didn't tell me about this ambush, so they must be really weak."

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Nov '2230

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