TRPG General Chat

Ben

12:45 AM

Morning all

MikeQ

Ahoy from the above world!

Ben

G'day from a land down under

How was/is the weekend going?

MikeQ

1:04 AM

Mostly uneventful. Been in a Pathfinder 2 trial campaign for the past few weekends.

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Few unique characters in answer, mostly punctuation marks in answer, repeating characters in answer (203): Can I craft a 25 AC piece of armor? by cal on rpg.SE (@Rubiksmoose)

BESW

The 2020 Indie Groundbreaker Award nominees have been announced.

Ben

@MikeQ Any good?

MikeQ

Eh. It's an improvement. Combat still flows like molasses if the GM doesn't make special effort to keep the game moving.

Ben

1:32 AM

Better or worse than starfinder?

MikeQ

Haven't played starfinder, so I don't know.

linksassin

@Ben Having player neither I can give a completely uneducated opinion that they are very different. From what I understand Starfinder is much more like an adaption of the pf-1e rules to a sci-fi setting than it is a new system. 2e is a complete rewrite of the game.

Ben

I have one friend that has run a game of Starfinder. Their opinion is that it is clunkier than PF 1e; like they took our all of the "extra padding" from 1e to start from scratch, but the issue was that a lot of the padding was required to make it work smoothly.

linksassin

1:48 AM

@Ben Yeah, I have a lot of friends that love Sci-fi systems and none of them play Starfinder. That alone is enough of a review for me.

Ben

Which is a bit of a shame

linksassin

If someone would rather play Shadowrun or Dark Heresy than Starfinder, it's probably not for me. (Note I deeply dislike both those games)

Joel Harmon

@linksassin I've never played Starfinder, but I do own the rules for it, and I've read many of them. As I recall, large swathes of it read much like a scifi reskin.

MikeQ

Dark Heresy can be fun, but it's a very particular flavor of scifi. It doesn't approximate Star Trek or space swashbuckling.

linksassin

The best sci-fi system I have played was Edge-of-the-Empire the Stars Wars system. Though it did become utterly broken at high levels of play.

I'm interested in Scum and Villainy and I think one of my players might be running a game in it soon.

@MikeQ To be fair, I didn't actually play DH. What I do know if is by hearsay from friends. They started a game and it lasted less than 3 months because they felt like they were failing all the time.

Ben

1:52 AM

@linksassin Is that the PF reskin?

MikeQ

@linksassin So you know it by... Dark Hearsay?

6

linksassin

@Ben No. Completely different system. Uses custom dices and has a really neat resolution mechanic

BESW

What makes a system "scifi"?

Ben

@linksassin DH and RT are "grimdark". It's brutal, it's harsh, and you're on a constant downward slope headed for death and destruction. But if you lean into it, it becomes very fun, and you feel like an absolute boss.

linksassin

@BESW To me, that it's default setting would be classified as "Sci-Fi'. And a ruleset that support sci-fi style storylines.

MikeQ

1:54 AM

Robots, lasers, and a focus on the relationship between mankind and technology.

Ben

@linksassin Ah ok. We started a SW game which is a PF/3.5 resking

BESW

@MikeQ That's setting, not system.

@linksassin What are scifi storylines and how do rules support them?

linksassin

@BESW Mechanics rooted in technological advancement. Built in support for sci-fi tropes like laser-guns and space combat. Rules for handling cybernetics and other stables of the sci-fi genre.

MikeQ

Yeah, it would need some sort of mechanic to represent characters interacting with technology, or tech devices.

BESW

The D&D 3.5 core manuals have laser pistols, robots, and rules for making new technology. Supplements include technological augmentation to physical bodies.

linksassin

1:59 AM

By "sci-fi storylines" I mean the types of stories popularized by sci-fi pop culture. Star Wars, Star Trek, Firefly, etc... Or things rooted in classic sci-fi like the works of Asimov and Hubert.

BESW

Neither Star Wars nor Firefly are interested in technology or cybernetics except as set dressing, and the relationship between technology and humanity isn't given a focus.

linksassin

@BESW Sure, but the default setting and flavour text doesn't really lend itself to the sci-fi genre. I'm not disputing that any system can be used for sci-fi themed games but some are set up with it as the default and take less work to imagine it.

BESW

And I'm wondering what makes those systems do that, since you're saying that D&D's system isn't what makes it "not scifi," but rather the setting and flavour text.

Is it really so simple that any system becomes a "good scifi system" when somebody skins it that way?

Just change the text and the engine becomes scifi?

MikeQ

Hard to say. Some systems dedicate more focus on the depth of their technology mechanics.

Sometimes technological items are treated like magic weapons, or there's one "tech" skill that characters roll to see if they succeed or fail at using some device.

Other systems have more robust mechanics, like Shadowrun's hacking rules

But yeah, the flavor and tropes do play a part in how these systems get categorized.

linksassin

Exactly, I think it's an oversimplification so say that flavour text is all that separates sci-fi systems from non-sci-fi ones.

But that it is definitely possible to just change the flavour and get an approximation of a sci-fi system.

user15026

2:08 AM

I'm still confused. What are examples of sci fi systems then?

BESW

Cool. What makes a system a scifi system?

linksassin

@Ash Shadowrun, Star Wars: Edge of the Empire, Dark Herasy, Scum and Villiany, Starfinder

user15026

I don't know all of those but that seems more like it's not the system, it's the setting?

BESW

The Firefly RPG uses the same system as the Leverage RPG. Star Wars RPGs have used d20 and D6 systems. Scum and Villainy is Forged in the Dark so it uses a system made for an industrial fantasy heist game. Starfinder uses a hacked-down version of Pathfinder...

linksassin

@BESW Baked in support for genre tropes and mechanics that make sense in a sci-fi setting. D&D 3.5e might have laser guns and robots but it also has druid magic and most of the magic system is centred around the assumed fantasy setting. There would be a lot of work involved to run a pure sci-fi game in that game.

user15026

2:12 AM

...there is a Leverage RPG?

BESW

Is Pathfinder using a scifi system?

linksassin

@BESW It depends where you draw the line between system and game. How much of pathfinder do you include in it's "system"?

BESW

@Ash The free Quickstart guide seems to be gone from the website, I'll share it with you.

linksassin

If you only include the dice mechanics, combat rules and core resolution mechanics then any system can be sci-fi.

BESW

Wouldn't some resolution and combat systems be more "scifi" than others?

linksassin

2:15 AM

But if you also include the class/archetype/playbooks abilities, available skills and systems. Then no PF is not sci-fi.

@BESW Perhaps, but I don't think I know enough about game design to identify what that might be.

BESW

So support for themes is just whether or not the individual physical pieces of the themes are present or not? It's not about pacing or resolution or stake-setting?

linksassin

It's hard to separate the feel of a system from it's inbuilt flavour text.

BESW

The Firefly RPG uses Cortex Plus because it's a good system for telling stories where the tension between the PCs' various motives and values are what drive the story.

linksassin

But is tension between PCs' motives an inherently sci-fi trait? Sure its a common theme in sci-fi but you could easily run it in another setting.

BESW

I didn't think "scifi" is a category that's useful as a way to talk about story structure, so I'm very curious about y'all's thoughts on how it is.

I'm hard-pressed to think of much beside broad aesthetic that is shared between, say, Firefly and Star Trek and Dune.

linksassin

2:23 AM

Perhaps it's not. By in my experience when somebody is thinking of running a space-hiest or interglatic warfare type game. They will gravitate toward systems where that is the default theme.

BESW

I've always thought that a system I'd want to use to tell Firefly-like stories would be grossly unsuited for telling Dune-like stories.

So I'm really interested to hear about systems which can encompass such a broad range without just being generic "one size fits all" for fantasy, realism, romantic drama, etc., also, and why you think they do that.

linksassin

True, as you say "aesthetically related" at best, and even that is superficial. They are fundamentally different stories with very different characters, motives and resolutions.

BESW

(I also find it very interesting that our touchstones are these decades-old franchises and we haven't updated to think of scifi as the domain of Chiang, Jemisin, Corey, Martine, Ng, etc.)

(Why have the flat characters and condescending speculation of a long-dead white sex pest been allowed to dominate our sense of what scifi "is"?)

A. B.

(Oh, just for once can't a game be for fun? For an ignoramus who is bad at people?)

BESW

(I didn't choose those names out of a hat either; they're contemporary authors who are, or should be, big on everybody's radar. Chiang wrote the short story Arrival is based on, for example.)

A. B.

2:36 AM

(Don't know which white guy you're thinking of, you've been talking about several franchises.)

MikeQ

(Why are we talking in parentheses?)

user15026

@BESW ah, yes that's how I know the name. I liked that story.

user15026

My brain tickles at rmemebering maybe there was going to be (is?) a Broken Earth RPG? Or am I making up memories?

user15026

(also Memory Called Empire would make a fascinating RPG I think.)

A. B.

Are any of them any good? As fiction, I mean?

Hmm, if Ash thinks it would make an RPG that sounds promising :-)

BESW

2:40 AM

I'm super excited to try games like Balikbayan and Sabres & Feelings because it seems like their systems are carefully designed to push specific themes and pacing and moments true to their particular genre goals.

@Ash Yup!

@Ash I have no idea what that would be like but I WANT IT.

user15026

@A.B. hm? The authors BESW mentioned all write stuff I have enjoyed

user15026

@BESW I know right?

BESW

> You have two stats, Obfuscate and Assimilate.

user15026

@BESW same.

user15026

@BESW yessssss

BESW

2:42 AM

I also feel like Murderbot would be an amazing game? Probably one PC shared by several players.

A. B.

That's solid, anyway. I asked because I keep on hearing NK Jemisin mentioned and then forgetting who she is again, so I looked her up yet again, and the first thing that appeared was a Wikipedia entry that begins "Nora K. Jemisin is an American science fiction and fantasy writer who has also worked as a counseling psychologist. Her fiction explores a wide variety of themes, including cultural conflict and oppression."

BESW

One player could be Murderbot's self-loathing, one could be their love of media, one could be their Company training...

A. B.

Which makes me want to crawl away and read trash.

nice trash
with shiny robots in it

user15026

@BESW oh I like this idea

A. B.

tries author's own website which will probably do her more credit

>Every great city has a soul. Some are as ancient as myths, and others are as new and destructive as children. New York City? She’s got six.

But every city also has a dark side. A roiling, ancient evil stirs in the halls of power, threatening to destroy the city and her six newborn avatars unless they can come together and stop it once and for all.

ooo

Right

btw I haven't read Murderbot but that sounds like a good game set-up. Have you read a webcomic called "Prequel"?

BESW

2:47 AM

Because that's the thing, you know? In Firefly combat is ugly and brutal and even if nobody dies it's not gonna SOLVE anything important; in Star Wars combat is exhilarating and artful and often reveals important information about its participants but, again, rarely solves anything important. In the d20 System that Pathfinder uses, combat is the primary solution to problems and people are gonna die but it doesn't usually matter.

user15026

@A.B. I don't read comics really.

user15026

@BESW yeah, they're all very different.

BESW

So I struggle to imagine an engine like the d20 System really being a good fit for most scifi touchstones, even accepting the definition of scifi as deriving from "classic" works.

When I look for games I don't know what they mean by "scifi," so I look for clues about what they value and what specific inspirations they're taking.

A. B.

I don't think it's anything to do with defining things by dead white guys. I think the term "sci-fi" just doesn't say anything about type of plotline.

So a system can't be "good for sci-fi" in plot terms, it's just a question of whether it's equipped for the practical details, like spaceships or cybernetics.

Joel Harmon

@BESW I think it's worth trying to draw a line between scifi settings and scifi stories, and possibly player expectations about systems that look scifi.

BESW

2:55 AM

@JoelHarmon At the end of the day I struggle with assigning any meaning to "scifi" at all, since it encompasses everything from Tron to Kipo, from Star Wars to The Story of Your Life, from The Matrix to The Princess Steel.

A. B.

Beyond that, like you say, you'll need to look for a game that fits the particular sci-fi franchise or the particular story idea of your own you want to play at.

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user15026

@BESW this is why I get so confused about SciFi as a thing.

user15026

Like sometimes it means spaaaaace and sometimes it means future and sometimes it means future spaaaaace and sometimes it's none of those things

user15026

(now my brain wonders if She-Ra is SciFi)

A. B.

2:57 AM

Firefly's openly a Western wearing a space opera's clothes. To fit the plots you'd probably do better with a system that suits Westerns, and then try and add some kind of space splatbook on top of it.

Joel Harmon

@BESW I think this is more about the literal definition of the setting: fictional science.

A. B.

@Ash Professional literary theorists get confused about SciFi as a thing.

Joel Harmon

Which I see as distinct from scifi plots, which tend to have characters as mouthpieces for different viewpoints in a general exploration of science/technology-and-humanity questions, such as what rights robots might have.

user15026

@A.B. I have an English degree. I know all of those genre determinations are mostly awkwardly made up "I like these things and can make vague connections between them" things. :p

BESW

@Ash And you studied that stuff!

user15026

3:00 AM

@BESW I know that's what makes it wooooorse

user15026

I know how made up it all is!

user15026

Like seriously sometimes I think romance is the only clearly defined genre. Maybe mysteries too. The rest is all vague handwaving

Joel Harmon

So Firefly is definitely scifi setting because of fictional science stuff like space ships and human experimentation. The stories it tells vary quite a bit, sometimes even within an episode. They don't really get much into the ethical weeds, except maybe the movie for ethical things on a large scale.

A. B.

@Ash "Prequel" is one of the "MS Paint Adventures" comics, I think. It's about a scatterbrained, drunk catfolk in the Elder Scrolls universe. The way it works is the readers got to make suggestions in the comments about what she should do next and the writer tried to act on them. I think it's stopped now, but it's a great read. Just thought of that when you were discussing that Murderbot idea.

BESW

Yeah, I just take the whole scifi/fantasy/magical-realism/whatever and lump it into "speculative fiction" and then go talk about the specific bits I'm interested in at the time.

@Ash She-Ra is absolutely scifi at least as much as Star Wars is, probably more.

@JoelHarmon [raises eyebrows] Firefly's basic premise is an ethical commentary, just not one specifically about advancing material technology.

A. B.

3:05 AM

I think I've seen somebody say that "sci-fi" and "fantasy" aren't like most of the other genre labels, when you think about it. "Romance" or "adventure" or "horror" tell you what kind of plot it is. "Sci-fi" is about the setting - it just means "this novel has things in it that a normal respectable novel ought not to have". :-)

BESW

I mean, it's a poor ethical commentary because it draws unquestioningly from ethically compromised source material and combines that with the smug self-assurance of Whedon coasting on his post-Buffy moral high. But it's still there.

user15026

@A.B. oh, it's not gonna be my jam, but thanks.

user15026

@BESW gosh yes

Joel Harmon

@BESW There are several interesting and dynamic relationship stories there; sibling, adoptive family, romantic, etc., none of which is really based on the humanity-technology stories that I see as straight scifi.

user15026

@BESW I think so.

user15026

3:08 AM

@A.B. normal respectable novel? What is that?

Joel Harmon

@Ash A door stop.

user15026

....mmmkay

BESW

The core premise of Firefly is easily read as an exploration of one of the most basic human technologies, the social structure, but I'd hesitate to assign INTENT to that criticism. Still, a lot of the "best" "classic" scifi are doing that too and only use speculative technology as a lens for that exploration; eg, almost all of Bradbury's ouvre.

The only reason Bradbury puts anything on Mars is so he can get away with pointed social commentary more easily.

(cf Twilight Zone)

user15026

Ah, yes because it's not Earth so you can pretend he isn't talking about you.

BESW

@Ash Right, just like how Allingham got away with scathing social critique because she was a woman writing murder mysteries so the people she was critiquing would never look so closely as to notice.

user15026

3:14 AM

@BESW yes!

BESW

But then you look at Firefly and notice that... browncoats are blatently coded as sympathetic Lost Cause adherents? Whedon's always been big on sticking symbols and allegories into his works and then forgetting to make them coherent.

user15026

I see similar in romance all the time. (the no one is looking so you can say stuff you couldn't normally thing)

user15026

@BESW he tries, and then gets distracted.

BESW

(Is witchcraft an allegory for wlw or drug addiction, Whedon? You can't have it both ways.)

Speaking of which, I recently ran across an interesting thesis that the modern franchise expression of the superhero is built on the roots of the filmic tradition of the Western.

Which... sure explains a lot of the thematic and ethical problems superhero films keep running into.

Joel Harmon

I need to head out; later, all!

BESW

3:22 AM

That's something I really liked in The Broken Earth, its refusal to indulge in that kind of "the system is corrupt and we must rely on the good will of superior individuals" messaging common to both Westerns and Supers. Instead the gifted individuals are clearly not superior, nor can their efforts bring about lasting good unless they collaborate with the whole community.

Ben

@BESW I think that a lot of the D20 systems like D&D and PF don't have a "sci-fi system", per se - in so much as they simply "allow" for you to add in the sci-fi elements. From what I've seen this is all very much "just use our existing systems for magical items and relabel things.

BESW

Yeah, I generally find that it's best for me (both as a GM and a designer) to identify the tone, themes, pacing, etc, I want in my game and then find/make a system with those qualities. The skin of aesthetics gets hung on the skeleton of the engine.

If I want a Bladerunner game, that's probably a game about people getting their assumptions about their self-identity stripped away and struggling with what to have in place of those assumptions. Misspent Youth sounds good for that.

A. B.

See, this is where we're different. You're calling the actual things in a story "aesthetics" and the abstract meta-things that I can't see unless I squint the "point of the story".

shrugs

Ben

It's probably hard to compare systems like DH to d20 systems, for example though, or even Savage Worlds for that matter, as they are all very mechanically different. DH uses percentile, roll under systems, SW uses the full polyhedral dice set to determine skill levels, etc

MikeQ

Although both systems are mostly about fighting things. And besides, the percentile-roll-under is basically what they had in AD&D and 2nd edition.

BESW

3:36 AM

If I tried to run a Blade Runner game with, say, Pathfinder, it'd be very focused on how much damage the guns do, and whether or a replicant can fool a scan wouldn't be an ideological question; it'd just be a matter of how well they roll and what their modifiers are. It might look like a Blade Runner game but it wouldn't be a Blade Runner story.

Ben

I think the main difference is that if a player loses a leg in one game, they're crippled and have to go on a quest to get a new limb, whereas in DH, even your most "pure" character is already 50% upgraded with sights and modifications giving them boosts and additional abilities.

And they can go and look around for a new mechanical/bionic leg at the local grocery store

A. B.

:-D

BESW

@Ben That's much more like the kind of difference I'd be looking for in a system to know what kind of game it's for.

user15026

@Ben "have to go on a quest to get a new limb" whaaaaat

A. B.

Ah, now we're getting into the kind of difference I understand.

(I read the short Broken Earth story on Jemisin's website. The amount of minute perceptual detail is a bit hard work - maybe it wouldn't be as hard work if I didn't try to visualise and agree with all of it - but I agree, this would be great in an RPG.)

(All this juicy world.)

BESW

3:40 AM

Like, the first season of Kipo ends with Kipo getting a new very useful ability, kinda out of the blue. The entire second season is about Kipo figuring out how to use that ability safely and in the process discovering the character- and setting-based implications of why and how she acquired it.

Ben

@Ash Don't quote me haha. That's just the level of comparison. D&D says "the only way to get your arm/keg back is to find someone that is able to use the specific types of magiks, that won't kill you, that isn't evil, that won;t get you tied up in something much bigger and end up in servitude to their chosen deity"

BESW

Pathfinder just gives you a new ability and you know how to use it. It'd be a lousy Kipo emulator.

Ben

DH says: you lost your leg. We have several models for your perusal. Pick one and we'll charge the boss, so be humble otherwise your boss might ask why you got the rocket booster upgrade"

user15026

@BESW I really need to finish that but I ran into a version of the She Ra etc problem with it

BESW

@Ash Oh it's much worse than She-Ra in that regard.

user15026

3:41 AM

@BESW oh so it's not just me then.

BESW

We'd need to, like, set up a battlemat and minis.

I'd be game to work through it with you if you wanted to, after She-Ra, but I'm not sure you'd really find it worth the effort.

A. B.

A lot of systems are like that - new abilities are thrown around like candy so you'd be hard put to it to make a new ability be a plot point in itself.

user15026

@BESW that was part of why I stopped watching it, because I couldn't find it compelling enough to get someone to help me watch it.

BESW

...I support that choice.

I mention it here because it's a good recent example of a scifi property with that quality, which it's more likely some people here are aware of.

user15026

That makes sense.

A. B.

3:47 AM

GURPS could kind of... half be good at it. GURPS is more about leaving you to half houserule everything except the basics.

BESW

...I'm trying to imagine The Expanse playing out under a system with a one-character-per-player paradigm.

MikeQ

I thought most of the Expanse was originally the resulting story of a tabletop RPG.

A. B.

I'm sick of said one-character-per-player paradigm, it makes me feel so self-conscious.

BESW

I'm given to understand that it was originally designed as an MMO and/or tabletop publication, rather than from a campaign.

user15026

@BESW oh that makes so much of it make so much more sense.

A. B.

3:52 AM

Might be relevant to what you said about too many RPGs and other things being about heroic superhuman characters saving the mooks. It's hard for an RPG not to be that way when each player plays entirely through a person, one single person, and their abilities and what they're personally carrying.

I've not seen The Expanse so no good me commenting.

BESW

@Ash Yeah, some weird bits in the novels are suddenly a lot clearer.

MikeQ

Research says that it was originally meant as a MMO, but that failed, so it was turned into a tabletop RPG. And the events of that campaign shaped the events in the books.

BESW

Yeah, the whole Epstein Drive backstory feels so much like a sidebar in a setting manual.

And Holden's whiny privileged butt is such a PC.

A. B.

X-D

Ben

@Trogdor was a person... I mean... a Dragon Person... though probably closer to a My Little Pony-Person.... but they were still TROGDOOOOOR

@MarkWells As a programmer I feel this.

trogdor

4:11 AM

@Ben lol

MikeQ

@A.B. What would break the one-character-per-player paradigm?

Actually, what is the paradigm? Is it that each player can only control 1 character at a time? Or they must remain with one character over the course of a campaign? Or something else?

trogdor

@Ash it is

XD

sorta

sci fi fantasy

or maybe just space fantasy

I don't know

you coud argue a lot of genres for it

at least technically

user15026

4:51 AM

You very much could.

BESW

...I just realized that probably the best engine for a Haven game would be Bubblegumshoe.

Because every episode is a mystery about peoples' relationships and feelings.

And the main characters are constantly going to other characters to get their expertise.

BESW

5:33 AM

But now I'm thinking about a one-shot engine... hm...

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AncientSwordRage

9:33 AM

@MikeQ My old main group of RP friend's are very keen on anything WH40K, so I suspect this would be their jam

@HotRPGQuestions I'm just imagining using a crab familiar as a stethoscope to take advantage of the blindsight

SmokeDetector

10:34 AM

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Link at beginning of answer (35): What is the meaning of 'permanent' in description of True Polymorph? by Simon Petrikof on rpg.SE (@Rubiksmoose)

BESW

11:29 AM

Machine Hearts by SubComM. One player is a Human with a Wondrous and Terrible Machine. The other player is the Wondrous and Terrible Machine. The Machine is a metaphor for the Human's heart. You will likely always succeed and that is the problem.

Turn by Brie Beau Sheldon is a slice-of-life, rural supernatural RPG about shapeshifters in small towns.

LizWeir

oh no

BESW

?

LizWeir

Machine Hearts sounds extremely my jam.

ah

BESW

Hah! Yes, it looks promising but I haven't read it yet.

It came across my feeds as the first game made by a friend of a friend.

LizWeir

yes, sorry, 'oh no' is almost always "I think I am about to experience Intense Positive Feelings" when I say it ;-)

BESW

11:35 AM

Duly noted!

I got feedback from a group that played Goblin Court and it made me so happy that my game is making people laugh.

Shalvenay

@BESW somehow, this reminds me a bit of Golden Sky Stories? :) might be interesting to compare and contrast the two systems, given their similarity in theme/premise

LizWeir

yeaaah machine hearts is about the sort of thing I was expecting <3

BESW

What about it pleases you?

AncientSwordRage

11:52 AM

Machine Hearts make me think of the God-Machine Chronicles, and Demon the Descent, which makes me think YES

LizWeir

there's some subtleties in how it's put together that I really like

the contrast of "how you fear it'll endanger the Machine" and how it actually does being the human and machine's responsibility respectively

simple design, but it's got an elegant shape to it

BESW

[reading now]

I'm intrigued by the game telling you how often to play it.

For some reason it kinda reminds me of TERRORSAUR but I couldn't say exactly how.

Apr 26 '19 at 7:24, by BESW

Welp, Terrorsaur is a free one-page game by Nora Blake, in which you are an eldritch pterosaur who channels death-magic to wreak vengeance on humanity for daring to say you're not a dinosaur.

LizWeir

I should wave it at the Jenna Moran fans, since wondrous and terrible machines that are also the wishing power of the heart are a big thing in the Chuubo's Marvellous Wish-Granting Engine conceptual space

doppelgreener

I came across Tendencies yesterday, which corresponds to a PBTA game for JoJo's Bizarre Adventure and Persona. (The former of which I'm more interested in.)

BESW

There's so much good stuff it's overwhelming.

LizWeir

12:09 PM

if pbta persona is of interest it'd be remiss of me not to mention Voidheart Symphony - lot of inspiration from Persona 5, it's about delving into allegoryspace and fighting avatars of institutional corruption and self-interest

(I have a writing credit in there so I'm not totally disinterested here ;-) )

gonna give Tendencies a look now!

BESW

I know nothing about Persona but I'm gunna give that a click 'cause you have a writing credit.

LizWeir

<3 I think it's very good and would have said so even before I threw the pitch into the call for writers! it's got some interesting mechanics, particularly in how the day-to-day real-world mechanics integrate HP/stress tracks and stats into one coherent thing

haven't actually played it yet, but I think it'll make for some interesting dynamics, and I've had a lot of fun with Rhapsody of Blood, also by Mina, which uses some very similar concepts for the dungeon-crawl part (on account of being Basically Castlevania ;-) )

BESW

I'm feeling grumbly tonight because I ran into a roadblock writing something that should be really simple.

LizWeir

12:24 PM

oof, that sucks.

NautArch

1:25 PM

o/

AncientSwordRage

@NautArch \oo//

NautArch

Getting to an intersting point in Avernus both in terms of story and in campaign development.

But we're at a point where the DM is either going to reward roleplaying or promote completionist dungeon crawling.

AncientSwordRage

@NautArch no possibility of both?

NautArch

1:41 PM

@AncientSwordRage I'm not sure. We basically found a backdoor into an area. The mission was to extract someone and we completed it quickly by discovering this route. It doesn't really make sense for us to stay and 'explore' to clear out. But the DM has also told (me at least) that there's lootz elsewhere.

I'm also very underwhelmed by the warlock spell section for non-concentration and non-combat spells.

AncientSwordRage

@NautArch YUP

Don't get me started

or do, I'm not your boss

NautArch

@AncientSwordRage It's really frustrating.

I'm so combat focused that I was hoping for some more non-combat spells.

Or things I can do in conjunction with my primary concentration (hex)

AncientSwordRage

@NautArch I've only made a character on paper, never played it but even though Warlock is my favourite, I don't think I would want to just go Blaster heavy

NautArch

@AncientSwordRage I went hexblade, but i'm kinda regretting the pidgeon-holeness of it now.

Not enough to multiclass out, though. I'll ride this train to the end.

AncientSwordRage

@NautArch it does feel very pidgeon holey

my un-tested character is Pact of the Tome

NautArch

1:50 PM

I basically have to invest in combat and specific invocations in order for it to really be optimal.

AncientSwordRage

but there's hardly any worthwhile rituals either so shrugs

NautArch

Yeah, I was previously looking at pact of chain, but I liked the idea of going with a gish style.

just levelled to 4, but this is my current character

AncientSwordRage

seems cool

NautArch

The balance of combat and party face has been fun.

Just wish I was a bit more flexible. But having fun in general.

AncientSwordRage

2:06 PM

@NautArch Mmmhmm

Hot RPG Questions

4:26 PM

10

Q: Can this Lair Action restore all the lich's 8th or lower spell slots even when there's no combat or any of the lich's enemies within the lair?

One of the Lair Actions of a lich does the following: The lich rolls a d8 and regains a spell slot of that level or lower. If it has no spent spell slots of that level or lower, nothing happens. A lich decided to attack the party, using some of its spell slots in the process, and then retreat t...

dnd-5e monsters undead spell-slots

Rubiksmoose

4:44 PM

The #TTRPGSafetyToolkit is a 2020 ENNIE-nominated project for Best Free Game/Product! tweet, ENNIE

3

Very much deserved. Such a great resource.

KorvinStarmast

5:46 PM

@A.B. yep (but that was partly a joke ... )

NautArch

6:12 PM

I've only recently begun playing 5e modules, but how common is it for legendary items to be provided before level 5?

Someone_Evil

It's against guidance, as far as I know, but that doesn't mean adventures don't do it

NautArch

@Someone_Evil WHite Plume was white plume, but Avernus just handed one out and it really surprised me.

Someone_Evil

2/2 means 100% right? So quite common :p

NautArch

@Someone_Evil well, white plume was level 8 :D

but yeah, that gave out 3 of 'em.

More surprised about Avernus dropping something like that.

party will need to decide what to do with it

Someone_Evil

XGtE 135 suggests one minor and one major during T3 (ie. by 16th level) so you're a bit ahead of the mark

NautArch

6:17 PM

@Someone_Evil It's bonkers, and it's definitely going to create some party issues. DM linked me to what it is and it's crazy. especially for our level.

and it'll create some other issues

speaking in generalities to not spoil

AncientSwordRage

@NautArch only sith speak in absolutes

Just read the rest of the comments, appreciate the non-spoilies

NautArch

no worries! I know it's a popular adventure right now.

Hot RPG Questions

6

Q: Can a Night Hag catch souls without Nightmare Haunting?

Every night hag possesses a Soul Bag which is described as follows (cf. MM, p.178). Soul Bag: When an evil humanoid dies as a result of a night hag's Nightmare Haunting, the hag catches the soul in this black sack made of stitched flesh. A soul bag can hold only one evil soul at a time, and only...

dnd-5e magic-items monsters

AncientSwordRage

@NautArch One day I shall RP again

NautArch

6:40 PM

The more I think about it, themore I think there must be something I don't know about the item. Just crazy to give a legendary item to a level 3/4 player.

Peter Cooper Jr.

I don't know anything about Avernus, but a significant part of Waterdeep: Dragon Heist is searching for an Artifact-level magic item. Stories about random people finding amazingly powerful magic is kind of the center of a lot of fantasy storytelling.

Someone_Evil

Yeah, but the three other people who doesn't get amazingly powerful items aren't really a concern to fantasy storytelling.

(Relevance here will depend on the nature of the item)

NautArch

Yeah, it's a legendary-level item given at level 3. There are 5 of us inthe party and it's the second real magic item we've gotten. A +1 weapon and this crazy thing.

Peter Cooper Jr.

That… does seem a bit different, yes. Though it may have Profound Plot Implications later (like getting stolen from you or whatnot). (Again, I know nothing specific to Avernus)

NautArch

and either do i :)

not sure if it's temporary or not, but it's definitely gonna cause some strife in terms of who gets it

MikeQ

6:56 PM

Could be interesting if it's a non-combat item, so that the PCs could effectively share it

NautArch

@MikeQ It's a combat item.

Mark Wells

7:22 PM

That's why there need to be more legendary items whose purpose is not combat

Someone_Evil

Or perhaps more specifically aren't an empowerment of only one character

I think the problem is it very quickly becomes just a McGuffin which doesn't have the same cool reward feeling as 'normal' magic items

Yuuki

> Ferocity Born of Rage. Instead of making an initiative check, this creature takes a turn of its own after each enemy's turn. If inflicted by a condition (blinded, fatigued, frightened, etc.), this creature can choose to forgo a turn granted by this feature in return for reducing the duration of the condition by one round.

For "boss" monsters?

LizWeir

7:38 PM

where's this from? it definitely looks like a boss type thing - it seems to be meant to fix the action economy problems of a single scary monster

Yuuki

Honestly, I came up with it trying to figure out how to make Monster Hunter-esque encounters work.

Someone_Evil

I mean, you already have legendary actions which go at this idea

Yuuki

On the other hand, it still makes things reactive. The players act and the monster reacts. Which isn't quite how Monster Hunter feels.

MikeQ

That's close to how turn-based combat works in Lancer. The enemy (side) get to act in between player turns, so they will have at least as many turns per round as the players do.

Yuuki

I might just use a custom turn order system.

The Monster takes an action and the players decide who will act in response to the Monster's action and everyone must eventually take an action.

So for a Party of A, B, C, and D vs. Monster, the turn order might go: Monster, A, Monster, C, Monster, B, Monster, D.

LizWeir

7:43 PM

what system's this for?

Yuuki

I mean, 5e's always on the table because I don't think the people I play with are familiar with non-D&D systems.

MikeQ

If there are multiple monsters, can they share turns?

Yuuki

Well, the core concept of Monster Hunter is that there's typically only one Monster. Granted, there are multi-Monster hunts but the general strategy for those cases is that you chase one of the Monsters away so you can focus on one at a time.

LizWeir

I feel like the monster taking a turn after each player is kind of less reactive than most D&D combat, actually

you'll get a more "the players act" setup if they can act all together

whereas this way, if one PC moves the monster might be able to catch them on their own, where everyone going together might be able to stay as a block

which represents how moving opens gaps in a defensive perimeter, I guess!

you would get some weirdness about speed, though

since if you do give them full speed each turn, they're way faster than everyone else, but if you don't they either can't move on one of their turns or have a really small move each time, neither of which I love

suspect that's part of why legendary actions work the way they do

oh, this makes initiative functionally irrelevant, which overvalues some builds and undervalues others - it turns into just "what order do the party go in" which actually means some PCs have an incentive to want a low initiative (so the others go first)

a bespoke system could dodge that but it's an issue if hacking this into d&d

and that's another benefit of legendary actions over this setup

Hot RPG Questions

8:01 PM

4

Q: Mechanical tool for combat adjudication management

I'm working on my own homebrew RPG system which I want to keep light on rules. Therefore I add only rules when they are needed. One rule which I did not use was an implementation of "initiative", where complete combat turns are subdivided into turns for each individual participant. In combat eve...

combat game-design initiative

MikeQ

Initiative could be used to determine if the players or the monster(s) go first, based on whose is highest

Yuuki

Something like combat rounds are organized into X turns, where X is the number of party members. Each turn is comprised of a Monster action and a Player action. Order of Monster/Player actions depend on initiative.

Wonder if it'd be a good idea to do an initiative check at the beginning of each turn since currently initiative rolls are only a thing at the beginning of combat.

Of course, any custom turn system is going to run into problems with certain effects with clauses like "ending on the player's next turn" or other such things.

MikeQ

Generally I'd argue in favor of consistent gaps between player turns

So that you never have a player go 1st on round N, and go last on round N+1, resulting in a huge gap in which they do nothing

Yuuki

Well, the initiative check at the beginning of a turn would only determine whether the Monster goes first or one of the players.

So there'd still be a consistent gap between player turns.

LizWeir

so one thing that means is initiative is kind of a party resource

so you might only be looking for one good score

which again throws a wrench in the usual chargen dynamics regarding it

GcL

8:16 PM

I find it's easier to use legendary actions, or a multi-part boss (think Voltron of meat) that gets weaker as the parts take damage. I never liked bosses that got stronger as they took more damage.

MikeQ

Depends on what sort of feel and pacing you want for the encounter

LizWeir

meat voltron is an extremely upsetting phrase and now I'll think it every time I get in one of those boss fights, and they're common enough in video games that this is a real problem. thanks. ;-)

MikeQ

Personally I like a bit of both. The enemies get weaker in some way, but stronger in some other way. Some kind of change, maybe even a tonal shift.

Yuuki

@LizWeir I think I know what you're getting and I might be describing it incorrectly. So there are Turns and Rounds. A Round consists of several Turns. Each Turn contains one Monster Action and one Player Action. At the beginning of each Round, the party decides which order each member will take their Turn. Then, at the beginning of each Turn, the Player and the Monster will each roll initiative. Whomever rolls higher will go first.

LizWeir

ah!

yes, that makes more sense

yeah, that might cover it - adds some interesting uncertainty, too, as the previous player doesn't know who'll go first

that's cool and it solves a lot of the problems! it's an extra roll, so it might be a bit clunky if you only do this sort of fight occasionally, but I think if the players and GM have time to get used to it that could easily get to be part of the flow

and I feel like it'll tend to smooth out the diciness of initiative - in a longer fight you're more likely to regress to the mean and beat the monster about as often as your modifier suggests

rather than rolling once at the start, which makes it more "did I roll a good number this time?"

nice elegant rule, I dig it.

GcL

8:37 PM

@Yuuki That sounds like a lot of rolling initiative.

Yuuki

@GcL Which I think is a good thing. Right now, you get one initiative roll per encounter and that determines your turn order until the end of time (or the encounter, rather).

GcL

I can see the appeal of that, but that's a lot of extra rolling. (#players + 1) * rounds extra dice rolls and initiative comparisons.

RedRiderX

@Yuuki If you're up for hacking systems and you want initiative to shift over time, you could consider Balsera-Style Initiative

It's less stats-based but more tactical.

Yuuki

@RedRiderX That's actually what I took inspiration from with regards to the party deciding the order of each of their Turns at the beginning of a Round.

GcL

I recall reading a bidding initiative system on reddit, but never got around to playing it.

I wonder if I could tac that on as a resource in foundryvtt.. probably. What was that ShadowRun system with karma? I recall that had a way of mucking with your turn order.

Yuuki

8:51 PM

Hmm... how would you define an alignment for the personality trait of "I will do the best for everyone in this community, so long as I am in charge"?

Someone_Evil

LE?

MikeQ

Depends on what "best for everyone in this community" means, and who decides it

Yuuki

And not best in a grimdark "I know what's good for you" kind of way.

MikeQ

If they're not in charge, would they act against the community's interests?

Yuuki

If they're not in charge, their goal is to get in charge.

I was looking at this dragon homebrew and I wasn't sure if LN was the appropriate alignment given the personality described.

MikeQ

8:56 PM

Eh, it's sort of like "if the people help me, then I will help the people" which could plausibly be lawful-something

kviiri

The desire to be in charge is not really on the usual DnD Good-Evil cosmology

MikeQ

Yeah I don't think that trait alone is sufficient information to strictly categorize them as any particular alignment

kviiri

I mean it's a game where one becomes, by the rules, just a little short of a demigod over lengthy adventuring so I guess craving power is somewhat universal in the system and it matters more how one intends to use it.

But if I would have to choose, despite having my usual reservations towards the 3x3 boxes, I think LN sounds like a good fit. It's a personal code to be just towards what one "owns", in a sense, including people, but doesn't really include the broader universalities usually implied by Good or Evil

Good would usually imply benevolence beyond "those under my rule", while Evil would usually imply disregard for others' welfare in the vast majority of cases

GcL

@Yuuki Wouldn't bother with alignment. That synopsis seems both descriptive and succinct enough.

kviiri

^ that is a fair assessment

I mean alignment is already all but a non-mechanic in DnD 5e. It's referenced in mechanics only a few times and in those cases it's... of the sort that I'd personally prefer winging it over sticking to the official discrete box a character falls in

GcL

9:10 PM

Also, those discrete boxes don't work for most non-superficial narratives. Evil or chaotic according to who? "you’re going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view.”

nitsua60

9:29 PM

@GcL "you’re going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view” feels like it could be the nugget around which an awesome little RPG is built!

Rubiksmoose

Yes please!

nitsua60

I'm a little busy truck-driving in space right now =)

But I might take a stab at it....

Rubiksmoose

@nitsua60 They allow sheep to do that?!

nitsua60

(If I can finish editing an episode tonight.)

Rubiksmoose

@nitsua60 (Galaxy Trucker?)

nitsua60