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12:31 AM
@KorvinStarmast yeah, in our case, we called the plumber in and they snaked, and snaked, and snaked, and snaked some more
and then they finally retrieved their snake after several tries...and came up with a small glob of mud on the snake's tip
and at that point, we knew it was done
 
Ben
1:10 AM
Morning all
@Shalvenay o/ any luck about your query from last night?
 
Ben
1:23 AM
Hey @linksassin
 
@Ben G'day how's it going?
 
Ben
Got my coffee, so far so good :D
Have you read the latest revision of the corruption rewrite?
 
hey there @linksassin, how're things going?
 
@Shalvenay Yeah not to bad.
 
@Ben not a whole lot, the closest thing I've found to a reference is the Scottish dirk
 
Ben
1:27 AM
Yes, also that haha. My bad
 
@linksassin alright out here, myself
 
Ben
@Shalvenay Maybe it's a ninja thing? Just popped into my head
 
@Ben huh. dunno. doesn't seem to make a ton of sense to me.
 
@Shalvenay Good to hear.
 
Ben
@Shalvenay Well, maybe not necessarily "in the boot", more "on your person". But ideas can be adapted?
 
1:29 AM
@Ben eheheh. the idea of a knife as an EDC piece seems to be as old as time itself, I reckon
 
Ben
I'd beleive that :)
I'd also believe* it
[chuckles at my own terrible joke]
 
its just that I'm not aware of references on that subject
 
Ben
That was a spur of the moment Naruto reference. The only link there was cos we were talking about ninjas :P
 
like, is there some old Roman rag on everyday carry back then that I'm not aware of or something? :p because I'd be quite surprised if it wasn't a topic of discussion back in the day, given how EDC/CCW is discussed in today's firearms world
 
@Ben Yeah I have. Looks like a good start. I'd be trying to keep it simple and not make it too much longer.
 
Ben
1:34 AM
@linksassin Yeah. I like it how it is, even leaving the "afflictions" to be generic. My only other thing I want to add is the "boons", then just iron out the mechanics, and I think it'd be solid for its first test run :D
@Shalvenay How times change. Haha
 
hopefully I can catch some folks in WB.SE chat this upcoming week, for a couple of things even
 
Ben
@Shalvenay fingers crossed :D
 
@Ben (other one actually has to do with the plausibility of something I had a char of mine craft a while back)
 
 
1 hour later…
Ben
2:55 AM
Question for the Star Wars machete order - does Rogue One fit in there?
I can see it both ways
 
Machete pre-dates Rogue One.
Given the reasoning behind machete, though, I think it'd put Rogue One alongside Episode One as "supplemental extras."
 
Yeah, I like Rogue One, but it adds nothing to the story.
 
Ben
Yeah. I was thinking it's "set up". Good set up, but not necessary
 
For one thing, a big persuasion point in machete is that putting Anakin's fall between the reveal of Luke's parentage in Ep Five and the reveal of Luke's new all-black outfit in Ep Six, dramatically aligns Luke's Ep-Six arc about the potential to turn, with Anakin's actual turn.
 
Ben
I am liking the machete, and I'm pretty well sold on it. Since it's an introduction to the series I wanna focus on the story, more than on the "fandom" of it all.
 
2:59 AM
Rogue One would either start the machete order before Ep Four (bad choice, it provides no significant theme or characterization for Ep Four's content) or it would fall between Ep Three and Ep Six (Vader's brief appearance in Rogue One would not compensate for the narrative distance it would put between Anakin's fall and Luke's struggle.)
Ditto Solo, and Rebels, they're supplemental.
 
Ben
@BESW Rebels..?
 
Star Wars Rebels is an American 3D animated science fiction television series produced by Lucasfilm Animation and set in the Star Wars galaxy five years before A New Hope. It takes place during an era when the Galactic Empire is hunting down the last of the Jedi while a fledgling rebellion against the Empire is taking form. The visual style of the series is inspired by the original Star Wars trilogy concept art by Ralph McQuarrie. The series features new characters, along with some from the original trilogy and from the previous CGI series, The Clone Wars. The series premiered as a one-hour...
 
Ben
Ah right
 
 
3 hours later…
5:38 AM
2
Q: How can my heroic tier PC contribute more during skill challenges?

Hey I Can ChanMy character isn't much use during skill challenges, and the campaign has seen, like, 25% of encounters be skill challenges. I'd like my character to contribute more during skill challenges, whether that's because my character has more skills he's trained in or because he's granting himself or ot...

 
6:07 AM
Good <time-of-day>, fellow humans
 
Ben
6:29 AM
Guten tag
 
Ben
[day:good]
 
Good morning
Rainy day here.
Once we've tackled the Star Wars watching order we could move on to Metal Gear playing order
It's an interesting series not because it started out as a very lightly-plotted, non-serious game and then evooved into an unprecedentedly cinematic video game franchise, but because it did so while staying true to its very... arcadey roots.
I mean, "Big Boss" is the kind of name you'd expect a late 1980's video game designer who doesn't care much about story to their main villain. You wouldn't expect them to keep using that name, and referring to the game it originates from as the dramatic pivotal point of the series narrative, over two decades later
 
6:49 AM
@kviiri So should I watch Phantom Menace before I play Phantom Pain, or is it more important to play Revengeance before I watch Empire Strikes Back?
 
@Miniman I recommend Sons of Liberty, then Sons of Anarchy. Haven't played Revengeance but I think watching ESB before and after is probably good
Completely apropos. The saying "heads nor tails" has a Finnish equivalent that's roughly the same. There was a canned herring commercial that made use of it: "no heads, no tails: just the best flesh around the back".
So in my student org we wanted to have a "flesh around the back" movie night: only middle parts of trilogies.
 
@kviiri There's a joke there along the lines of "neither fish nor fowl, just good canned herring".
 
I didn't have the time to participate but my inner dada would've wanted it so that there was no sensible opening and no satisfying conclusion
@Miniman Canned herring jokes penetrate cultural boundaries I see
 
@kviiri Now I'm trying to think of other examples of middle parts of trilogies that are generally accepted as the best part of their corresponding trilogy.
2
 
What about a mix-and-match trilogy? Watch the 1st part of trilogy A, the 2nd part of trilogy B, and 3rd part of trilogy C.
 
6:59 AM
@MikeQ The Matrix, then Aliens, then... Return of the King?
 
e.g. Fellowship of the Ring -> Empire Strikes Back -> Back to the Future Part 3
 
(not sure if the Alien series counts as a trilogy...)
 
The Phantom Menace, The Two Towers, Matrix Revolutions.
 
@Adeptus I know, I need a better (worse) part two.
 
7:04 AM
Twilight -> Underworld Evolution -> Blade III
 
@Miniman I think this is something I've given thoughts about too! Lemme think...
 
@kviiri I know it doesn't really count, but Golden Sun 2 is the only candidate I've got right now.
 
Terminator 2 perhaps? (although whether Terminator counts as a trilogy is debatable)
 
@kviiri Ooooh, nice.
 
Aliens is another that is arguably better than the first. Though again, that's not really a trilogy.
 
7:13 AM
From the video game side, I'd say Assassin's Creed would count. I'd count AC I, II and III as forming a trilogy-with-frills, as they wrap up a single major story that the later installments of the franchise – to my limited knowledge – have not revived.

Although, whether 2 or 3 is "better" is somewhat up to interpretation. The consensus among my friends is that AC II is either the peak of the series or really close to that, but it might be partially due to *relative* quality instead of absolute.
Video games have, unlike films, a strong expectation of iterative improvement. A sequel that is just as good as its predecessor is usually considered bad because it's not improving.
Although, I would've bought Hitman: Blood Money a few times over back in the days if it was marketed as "Exactly the same! Just more levels!"
 
Mass Effect 2, maybe?
 
Hmmm, the early 2000s Spiderman trilogy might count.
 
Next: then did each series switch from Arabic to Roman numbering, or vice versa?
Grand Theft Auto 2 was Arabic, GTA III went Roman.
I think some series I know has switched back and forth too...
 
8:00 AM
@KorvinStarmast I found him a bit meh at the time, but the amount of hate he gets seems excessive. At least he manages to get stuff done. I found C-3PO more annoying. And then later I got acquainted with the Darth Binks theory some year and watched Clone Wars this year, and started finding Binks more fun and . . . C-3PO still as annoying.
 
@kviiri remember that AC2 is technically 3 games (AC2, Brotherhood, and Revelations)
AC3 is actually the 5th game, AC2 is a trilogy by itself if you consider it to comprise all of Ezio's games
 
@Carcer Yes, that's the "with-frills" part :>
 
ah yes
 
I don't really consider AC2 plus its direct sequels to be a "true" trilogy, personally. I mean, it's definitely a single work composed of three individual works, but the games feel too uneven from a narrative standpoint to treat them as three equal parts of one whole.
(less diplomatically: Revelations is a rushed and skippable entry that adds little to the story)
I did like Brotherhood, though, despite it having a high sidequest vs main plot ratio
 
I think everyone liked Brotherhood
 
8:14 AM
I have a friend who didn't, but he's wrong x)
 
AC3 was honestly a bit of a letdown, I think the gameplay is fine but it suffers a bit for the blandness of the MC
 
Or well. I think the Assassin's Creed series definitely has a lot of problems, but Brotherhood doesn't, in my opinion, stand out as worse in terms of them
Yeah. I was expecting a lot from AC3. Mainly, the fact that most enemies ought to be packing firearms was something that interested me: combat in Assassin's Creed had always been too static, long-winded yet easy to my tastes. I was hoping that guns, being the great equalizer, would finally make the protagonist rely on their stealth more.
Y'know, Mark of the Ninja style.
It bugged me to no end that AC II (which was the first entry I heard of) was advertised heavily as a game of social stealth, swordplay and swiftly skedaddling over the rooftops of Renaissance Italy. But in actual gameplay, you'll usually just want to kill whoever is pursuing you. It's faster.
The enemies are far too good at giving chase over rooftops to make the series' hallmark parkour be an attractive option for the player in most cases, which is kinda sad.
 
AC is definitely never Hitman
 
@doppelgreener (Kubo and the Two Strings.) But yeah, Kubo and the Two Strings is a phenomenal movie. I think I first watched it by myself (or maybe with friends) while I was living in Singapore, and later insisted on making my mom watch it too after I'd moved back to the US.
 
@Carcer To be fair, most Hitman games don't live up to their reputation that well either x)
Disclaimer: I'm only thinking of the old series when saying this. I haven't played any of the games after Blood Money
The concept is lovely, and Blood Money actually implements it reasonably well in my opinion, but I feel even there the game is only possible to actually learn through rigorous trial and error.
 
8:28 AM
@Miniman Mass Effect 2, maybe, if we're including video games? I thought it did a fairly good job of telling character-focused stories, instead of "be the big dang hero that beats Saren/stops the Reapers" in ME1 and then... whatever ME3 was doing. (I'm not accounting for the ME2 ending in my judgment, though...)
 
1 hour ago, by MikeQ
Mass Effect 2, maybe?
 
The AI is somewhere in the uncanny valley between normal video game enemy AI that has clear patterns, that can be reasoned about using the game's rules – and a realistic model where common sense should suffice. Since the game is almost wholly about understanding how to not anger the AI, it's a long road of probing the AI's responses to different stimuli to get to the point where you can carry out assassinations flawlessly
 
@kviiri I never got around to playing any of the Assassin's Creed games after the AC2 trilogy. I did really enjoy the Ezio story, but the Desmond "real-world" story was... certainly a thing.
 
@kviiri the bit where Russian soldiers are so inherently suspicious of the activity of running that they will shoot you if you are dressed as a Russian soldier and moving at a brisk jog was a low point yes
[shakes fist at Hitman 2]
 
@Carcer My personal unfavorite from all entries before Blood Money: if you get frisked while carrying a weapon, you lose. Allowing them to complete the procedure gets you shot. Leaving before they can do that gets you shot. You just have to know which guards at doorways want to frisk you and which ones are just there for show.
 
8:32 AM
@Miniman haha, I read through the convo in order. And I missed your message initially :P
@kviiri oof
 
Oh yeah Hitman 2's bugs haven't been fixed to this day.
The original 2, not the rebooted 2 of course.
 
I think I bought several of the (older) Hitman games on Steam when they were on sale back when I was on a buy-all-the-games kick. I think I played a little bit of the first one, got stuck, and never got back to it...
 
@V2Blast I have mixed feelings about the Desmond story. I think the modern backdrop set a nice tone in a way, but really the best part about it is that it made the first game seem very artsy :P
 
The rebooted series is pretty nice, at least now that they fixed the launch-era crashes.
 
In the sense of, "if you just wanted to maximize sales you wouldn't be doing this crazy thing."
@V2Blast Yyyep. To learn to play Hitman, you just need to grind at the levels until you understand the game's idiosyncracies :(
Blood Money is a bit better but not exempt.
 
8:34 AM
@V2Blast I struggle to compare Mass Effect 2 and 3, personally, especially once DLCs come into play.
 
Personal unfavourite from the original HM2: on the approach to the mountain fortress, the trucks ride through tunnels. They occasionally drive over the guards, causing an alarm and ruining your silent assassin rating because of course the game thinks you killed someone.
 
@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica Oohhhh yes. I don't recall that particular thing but the levels themselves were totally bonkers.
 
And yet the game had so much potential. It could be almost as good as either Contracts or Blood Money. But nope, ruined by bugs.
The worst thing with the cars is that there is nothing you can do about it.
 
I mean, it's weird how authors sometimes lose the sight of what makes their own works so appealing. For Hitman, the openness and (by the standards of the day) realism were really cool. It was nice that you could finish a level in like two minutes if you just shot a guy in the head at the right moment and made a good getaway. So why, WHY did Hitman 2 have to have that triple-level where you don't assassinate anyone, but just sneak through a corridor-like mountain range?
On the bright side: the actual castle level is to my recollection a really atmospheric and cool one.
 
Hey, careful what you wish for. Remember Absolution, where you make about one assassination per 200 square metres of maps, taking a long trail through Texas or whatever like that?
> So why, WHY did Hitman 2 have to have that triple-level where you don't assassinate anyone, but just sneak through a corridor-like mountain range?
 
8:41 AM
I haven't played Absolution, so I can't comment. But something I've been wondering is, what does 47 solve with his abs?
On a similar note, despite having played Contracts I don't remember the level where 47 actually does contract. I was expecting something like where he is shrunk to perform a Fantastic Voyage -style assassination, but nay.
At least he talks little, so in Hitman 2 he really IS silent as a sin.
(I'm not sure if "as a sin" is used in English lol)
 
Contracts is just a recollection of missions followed by an escape from a siege. Some of the missions are reimaginings of ones from the first game. They're all reasonably well done though there is an awkward mechanic or two (IIRC sleeping guards wake up eventually, so chloroform is an iffy choice).
 
@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica eh, the chloroform rag didn't permanently KO guards in Hitman 2: SA either
 
@Carcer Oh, I may be conflating the two games regarding the rag then.
 
Yeah, in Hitman 2 I recall you can hold down the button while incapacitating guards with it, to give a longer-lasting dose (which consumes more chloroform)
 
there was a mechanic for how much you dosed them
 
8:46 AM
The mechanics largely became solid approximately by 4.
 
yeah
 
I think Blood Money is where they had their stuff roughly together, yep.
 
the new Hitmans have really embraced the whole "do this repeatedly to figure everything out" gameplay though
 
5 was . . . mechanically OK, but the plot was too gonzo even for the Hitman universe, and the levels were too small per the number of targets to assassinate.
 
hmm. Which ones have I actually played
 
8:47 AM
Which one is 5 again. It's hard to track due to the series itself not being numbered
 
I found 6's levels are more fun than 7's, especially the final one, but they're both overall good.
 
according to wikipedia's chronology absolution was the 5th one
 
I've played SIlent Assassin, Contracts and Blood Money.
 
according to the plot summaries I definitely did not play Absolution
 
Also, the various hints, both IC and OOC, make for a smoother experience in the two semi-rebooted games.
 
8:50 AM
Blood Money is... unironically quite good, in my opinion, but does suffer from the poor mixture of "video game logic" and "real life logic"
Specifically in the AI department, but the AI is such a fundamental part of the game that it winds up mattering quite a lot
Another game with a similar spirit to Hitman series is the prison escape game The Escapists, but I didn't like it much.
It had potential for sure. The prison is a neatly small area that's possible to model to a relatively good effect. The population is small, so it's possible to remember the important NPCs. There are ideally lots of relatively free-form ways to make one's way out of confinement: tunnels, fake keys, air-vent passageways. Any combination of these.
But then the actual gameplay is basically grinding for those few items you need a ton of. Some of the important items, eg. lumber, can be obtained reliably by breaking into a carpentry shop, but not all, and then you just grind for money until some inmate has what you're looking for. And you have to grind for stats, because they degrade at the speed of light.
Meanwhile, you don't even feel like you're in prison. You have a "heat" meter that climbs if the guards see you doing stuff out of schedule, but it doesn't matter in practice unless you constantly stand in a guard's view. If your cell is tossed during a roll call, the guards won't even mind if you go in to collect your contraband before they go in.
 
@kviiri must be one of those swedish prisons
 
@Carcer Most of our prisons are like that too x)
 
9:05 AM
@kviiri s/swedish/scandinavian/
 
@Carcer Finland is technically not Scandinavia x)
Although, culturally it's not too far off. We got some of our best stuff from our former overlords of Sweden.
 
@kviiri s/scandinavian/nordic/
 
@Carcer That's more like it <3
 
we got there in the end
 
There's a sequel to The Escapists but I haven't even bothered to check what it's like, the first game was enough to convince me that its developers haven't got much taste for the kind of game design I like
Although checking their wiki... one of the features listed: "Statistics don't go down with time". Gimme a break. Stat decay is such a bad feature in the original that you consider it a feature to not have it in The Escapists 2? You've been patching the original, why not remove it there too?
 
9:14 AM
blargh, worktime
 
[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Bad keyword in answer, bad keyword with email in answer, email in answer, pattern-matching email in answer, potentially bad keyword in answer (348): Can the Suggestion spell be used to turn someone against an ally? by Aleta Robert on rpg.SE
 
9:40 AM
@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica From what I've seen in Achievement Hunter's let's plays, the newer Hitman/Hitman 2 have a similar issue where you can fail some challenges as a result of a pedestrian being in the way during the cinematic if you use a vehicle to escape. :P
 
@V2Blast Hah. Strange, I thought the vehicle escapes were all cinematics in the semi-rebooted series. But it's probably not a super-common thing like in the original 2, because I played about 200 hours through the last duo, and I don't remember it happening to me.
 
Oh, speaking of annoying vehicles in stealth games... Commandos.
 
And speaking of long hours, Absolution got the right idea about how to implementing replayability, but it is the semi-rebooted (2016) series that polished the formula, reusing levels with different challenges, stories, and targets.
 
There was one mission in the first game, which was pretty and quite awesome at times while being quite rough around some edges... one had to destroy a German railway artillery piece. It was a neat mission by what I recall, apart from its ending.
Commandos 1 has a mechanic where, if alerted, certain buildings will spawn German soldiers. One such building happened to be right next to the getaway truck, which the Germans would immediately recognize as being hostile if any of the eponymous commandos were inside.
IIRC the getaway truck couldn't even be driven (only entered, and it'd drive away automatically once the mission was accomplished with all the commandos inside... but the guards exiting would destroy it within seconds)
I don't even remember how I got around that. One option would be to destroy the building, which was possible for most buildings in the game – but the game was really stingy with explosives. Usually, if you got an explosive satchel, that meant it had a designated purpose in the level.
So I think it wasn't that...
 
9:48 AM
Hmm, possibly. I might need to check some let's play video to see how they do it
Commandos 1 was a very impressive game and left a lasting impression on me as a kid. It isn't good by any modern standard (except for being really, really pretty!) but I think the sequel improves upon it quite a lot.
Not to mention, the concept of playing a team of awesome specialist commandos to perform dangerous but not outlandish military strikes on Nazi Germany is very good.
 
I tried playing it, but I came late to the franchise and gave up very fast.
On the outlandishness angle though, after playing through the two rebooted Wolf3D's, I embrace the outlandishness!
 
Outlandishness certainly has its place, not saying anything against it :)
But at the same time, a large part of Commandos's appeal to me was that the missions were presented mostly as realistic scale military operations. Quite often, when a fictional work presents the audience with a hyper-competent specialist team, the team will do something that amounts to saving the entire world, or in this case, war effort. The Commandos missions are more in the scale of "disable this one big gun", or "destroy this one bridge", or similar. It's refreshing.
They're not trying to portray these guys as single-handedly winning the war, just doing a really impressive share of winning considering they're a team of... uh, five people? I can't remember the full list off the top of my head.
Six? Green Beret, Sapper, Sniper, Diver, Driver and Spy. There were a few more in the sequel, but I think the sequel didn't have any map with the whole team present.
Sadly, again, the great concept didn't exactly mean a great execution. The Driver and Sniper all too often were just tag-alongs who were pulled into use for that one specific bit that needed them. The Sapper was the cheeselord character due to being able to kill lots and lots of enemies through slow grind by abusing their "man-trap" special item. Usually, the level'd be practically over when the Driver gets into a tank: then it's just possible to gun down all the Germans.
 
@kviiri Spoony: 'Never be the driver!' Jokes aside, that role does seem underwhelming when standing next to the rest.
Oh, ninja'd.
 
10:03 AM
@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica It totally is x) and it gets even worse in the sequel, where everyone can drive normal vehicles. I guess objectively speaking, the Driver's skill of commandeering a tank alone is quite neat, but in-game it feels like the poor guy is just waiting for everyone else to clear him a route to a tank so he can wipe the German army.
They gave the Driver two extras in the first game to compensate a bit: he has a sub-machinegun and in some missions, a medikit. But these aren't... that good either.
Both help mainly if one's screwed up already, and quite often they wouldn't help one recover then
 
@kviiri Also not thematically fitting.
 
Thematically, IIRC the Driver was something like an ex-mobster? I guess the SMG was to reflect that... but everyone else was a trained soldier too. They should be able to use one.
That said. The sequel did improve the Driver a bit by making the characters able to collect and use gear and weapons they find in the mission, swap generic stuff between themselves as well as engage in hand-to-hand combat. This means the Driver can now do what the Green Beret and Spy do in the first game: take out lone guards.
On the flip side, almost everyone else can do that too, so it doesn't really make the Driver shine. It just makes him feel a bit less useless until he has a vehicle to commandeer.
 
@kviiri I was once (for a long while) in a campaign which I'd characterise as 'Dishonoured X-Com', and it had a similar feel (mostly; some exceptions). While the campaign had a very verisimilitudous and serious boots-on-the-ground feel, it also caused a great sense of confusion about what's actually going on on the strategic level. Even at times when the team (which soon dwindled to two PCs) contributed to major turns it was often unclear how exactly that worked and what the consequences were.
 
One of the new characters in Commandos 2, the Thief, was actually my favorite due to NOT being able to permanently disable characters in hand-to-hand combat. He could knock out a guard like the others, but couldn't tie them up (no idea why). But I liked his more sneakiness-oriented gameplay
 
10:25 AM
@kviiri Wait, I must be forgetting something . . . they're enemy soldiers, why did the commandos not just knife them to death?
 
10:35 AM
@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica Only some of the Commandos can do that
...no idea why.
Also, Commandos 2 rewards one for killing as few enemies as possible, iirc. Again, no idea why.
I could get a "psychological warfare" incentive to have stuff blow up in a camp full of undisturbed guards
But if they're all knocked out and just stowed away... well, it doesn't feel the same does it.
 
11:22 AM
Deleted my message because I thought this might not be rpg.stack's general, then worked out it was! I'm new here. Let's try that again. ;-)
I wanted to check in with a mod to get an idea of site norms on something and figured jumping into chat might be a sensible move. Does that make sense? Anyone about and/or have a better idea for how to go about this?
 
They should all be pingable in here. If you need a private conversation, they can set that up
Or do a custom flag on a post
Or you can just ask us here, if you need experienced user(s) rather than actual elected mod
 
Might as well ask, yeah!
Wondering if there's a site policy about deletion of questions - someone posted something, I think one of the mods specifically commented that it was a great first question, and I put some time into answering, and then it disappeared.
I swear I saw a meta post a few weeks back about that delete-when-you-get-an-answer behaviour, but I can't find it - might have been on another stack.
 
Did you post an answer, or were you just typing it up?
 
Posted.
And basically I'm wondering if there's a standard response here! It was a good question, it pointed out a slight gap in D&D 5e rules-explicitness, and I'm emotionally invested because I put some effort in - I think having the question on here would be good from the resource-for-the-future perspective, so I wanted to check up on what people normally do with this sort of thing.
I've still got it open in another window - looks like @V2Blast was the mod who commented, so I guess here's a ping since you might have thoughts!
(The one about Artificers infusing to make prosthetic limbs.)
 
That question is still up and has never been deleted as far as I can see
 
11:31 AM
huh, that's weird
definitely not appearing in my Newest Questions thing here
guess I've hit a site bug! sorry to waste your time, I'll see if I can work out what's going on.
... nope. eyes bug.
 
@LizWeir Those happen too
 
@LizWeir No need to apologize, we're here for this kind of thing!
 
I'll just sit here and feel like an idiot for a minute. ;-P
coulda sworn it was above some of these other questions when I first saw it, but apparently not!
thanks for taking the time to help, anyway <3
 
You might have been looking at the active tab (the home page ususally) which sorts by last activity, not time posted (as newest questions does)
 
I'll happily take that as a cover, though I suspect I managed to stay in Newest and just got confused. ;-)
 
11:55 AM
@kviiri I wonder if this was originally supposed to be a very different game lore-wise, and the authors decided to retain the mechanic.
 
 
oh my god is that from Skin Horse? :-D
or possibly Narbonic? not seen that art style in forever, anyway <3
 
That one's Narbonic, yes.
 
chimera squad's totally nonlethal tranquilising plasma blasts are my favourite subdual technique from games so far
 
@Carcer Zat-ats?
 
12:11 PM
@AncientSwordRage nah, that's just sci-fi phaser magic. XCOM:CS has you somehow load "tranquiliser rounds" into a gun which fires superheated plasma.
 
@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica I doubt it, I think the whole after-mission scoring was just done as "follow the leader" taking example from other stealth games with "no-kill" rewards
 
@kviiri I could see if it was one of those things where leaving behind less evidence was better but yeah, replacing killing by knocking out doesn't really make sense in the game's context
unless the mission end features every member of the squad hightailing it out of the op zone with one captured german on each shoulder
 
heh
Abduction missions might be neat
 
@Carcer amazing
 
12:50 PM
No-kill runs are a somewhat annoying feature of stealth games to me, quite often it feels like the game design doesn't really accommodate a challenge
 
@kviiri Sometimes it looks reasonable (Thief series), sometimes it gets in the way of using all the mechanics the game is famous for (Dishonoured series).
 
@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica And at other times, it's not really that challenging compared to the normal (most of Metal Gear series)
 
Yeah, they've been power-snaking it about twice a year for a few years now, pulling out lots of roots. A year ago they said "there's two new houses going in next-door to you, when that happens we'll tie you in to the sewer lines at a new point and seal up the old ones.
The foundations are in next door to me, and supposedly this month the service tie-ins are happening, so keeping fingers crossed.
 
MGS has that thing where you can shoot enemies not-dead with unreasonably effective tranquilizer rounds. Splinter Cell makes non-lethal incapacitation permanent (for the time frame of a single level, unless another enemy revives the KO'd character) and as easy as melee kills
Literally just replace one button with another
 
@kviiri No much more challenging is at least non-annoying (e.g. Deus Ex series feels like no-kill runs are usually not too hard).
 
12:54 PM
howdy howdy
 
Sup @NautArch
 
/me waves its pedipalps in greeting.
 
I did love the Deus Ex games. I only played the early Hitman stuff and was underwhelmed, but I tend not to be great at being sneaky. I always end up triggering something and just have to attack. My patience isn't good enough for sneaking like those games require.
 
@kviiri Alpha Protocol is similar. Tranquilizers were pretty easy to use. Even on bosses (though it's best to soften them up with more damaging normal bullets).
 
I prefer the sneak of the Fallout games
After further review, I think I'm not going to take PAM for my S&B hexblade. I didn't realize how many other bonus action effects warlocks have (including Hex). Don't think I want to add another.
 
1:11 PM
Invisible Inc. is a great stealth game for mainly the reason that it actually de-emphasizes even non-lethal knockouts in favor of actually slipping past the gaps undetected
Knocking out a guard requires a stunner device, armored guards might be immune to cheaper models. Successfully KO'd guard will stay out for a few turns only, after which they revive. The period can be prolonged by stationing any agent on the guard, which "pins" them, making their KO counter not tick, but that ties down one agent to maintaining the situation. There's also special injection doses one can use to prolong enemy guard KO time, but you might want some other equipment in its stead.
Also, if a guard revives, they will know something is wrong and will no longer neatly stick to a predictable patrol path, but rather rush around the building trying to find the jerk with the stun gun.
 
Is the Invisible Inc. generally about the sort of party who prefers to keep lethality low?
 
Kinda. Invisible is an industrial espionage agency in a cyberpunk future dominated by mega corps, and has a bit of anti-corp vibe going on, but they are mainly trying to survive, not wage offensive war. That said, lethal options do exist – they're just often even worse than non-lethal KO's.
 
@kviiri I'm curious in what way worse.
 
@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica Most guards, even in low-security sites, have heart monitors that trigger alarm increments when the guards are killed.
 
@NautArch ahoy. Did you have snow, 70-deg sun, howling winds, and gentle rain all in the last 48 hours? I did.
 
1:21 PM
We did too :P
 
@nitsua60 That we did! Snowfall, but no real accumulation. But sun and winds. Not so much rain, though.
 
@kviiri But the monitors don't notice any other weird stuff, like being unmoving for too long (like firemen's systems) nor the heart rate spikes during a struggle? Oh well, sometimes interesting mechanics have to pay the tax out of the WSoD budget.
 
@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica Alarm is not binary, rather it grows in small increments to a bar which, when full, advances the alarm level. The meter fills slowly over turns so the enemy WILL eventually know you're there, but being seen, having enemies find bodies, things like that increment the alarm too and potentially make the soft time limit of "complete and escape before the alarm is too high to survive" much more constraining
@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica Higher security locales do have advanced heart monitors that do increase alarm level for KO as well.
Although it's usually less significant... the enemies tend to be armored by that point and armor-piercing stun guns are something I don't invest in that often
 
@kviiri Oh, is this a pure procedural sandbox with no endgoal other than racking up the score and surviving for long, or is there a plot with a clear endpoint?
 
There are a few items that stun regardless of armor, though. For example, a shock trap you can install on doors. It's one of the reasons why Dr. Tony Xu is such a great agent to have x)
@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica Both, actually! There's an infinite mode, but the main game is a campaign where Invisible, having been raided by corps, scrambles to secure a backup system to dump their super AI called Incognita in. You complete missions, trying to secure as many useful resources as possible, and then try to survive the final mission with whatever you've got. As long as you survive, only the final mission matters – but it might be hard if you miss too many valuable objectives earlier on.
You don't get any inherent bonus for completing the main objective of a site though, most sites are just much better targets in one aspect over another. You can find cash anywhere, but corporate vaults are generally the best. You can find software anywhere, but a server farm has a better selection. You can find equipment anywhere, but a nanofab vestibule has more. Etc.
 
1:29 PM
@kviiri That reads FTL-/Breach-esque. Maybe eventually I'll get back to trying it out.
 
The expansion optionally splits the campaign in two parts: after the first three days, when you'd normally get the ending mission, you have a longer "mid-boss" style encounter, after which you have two more days to accrue resources for the true final mission
 
@kviiri Whoa, that's some short timespan. Surprising. I was expecting something closer to the rebooted X-Com timescale.
 
@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica Yeah, these guys are on the run, and their laptop battery can only sustain the super AI which is critical to their survive for so long ;)
It's an excellent game. I don't play it all the time, but I pick it up for a "spree" every now and then
 
@nitsua60 Hope they fix it soon, otherwise the "need to power snake it again" will be a never ending saga.
 
2:32 PM
@KorvinStarmast Just call Mr. Plissken
 
2:49 PM
@NautArch Oh, man, that's a heck of a reach back! 8^D
 
@KorvinStarmast my yuan-ti warlock is named Plake Snissken.
 
@NautArch Hooray! Does he wear an eyepatch?
 
@KorvinStarmast Heh, he's not totally him. Maybe a little bit.
 
3:14 PM
@KorvinStarmast I did also get Beyond20 working, and it's really a much better character control/roll sheet than Roll20.
 
@NautArch Does it also restrict what choices you can make in the free version like dndbeyond does?
 
@James Beyond20 is a browser plugin linking your dndbeyond character sheet to a Virtual Table Top (like roll20)
So you're still limited by what you have access to.
@James and if you want more access, well, you can get it here.
 
3:43 PM
@NautArch It's nice but since I usually play at work I end up making most if not all of my rolls via macros. I have two broad "Saves" and "Abilities" macros as well as one for initiative. It's simpler cus I don't have to go find my character sheet or hunt an option on it, I can just click on my token and use the macro and I get a dropdown
 
@Himitsu_no_Yami ah, i never spent any time with making macros. So this was an easier transition. Andm ore importantly, I can keep all my equipment, HP, etc. all in one place.
 
@NautArch That is definitely fair
 
@Himitsu_no_Yami I also think im bypassing PAM for my feat when I hit 4th level.
We'll see how much wealth we have in another level, but if it's enough to buy plate, i think i'm going heavily armored.
 
What kind of char is it again?
 
yuan-ti hexblade, going pact of blade.
Currently wielding a shield and yklwa
 
3:47 PM
@NautArch how does one even say that last word
 
ikkle-wah
 
that's weird as heck
 
chultan spear
 
Also, would anyone be able to help me figure out what an equivalent spell is to something I saw in an anime (whose spell list is very heavily based on D&D 3.5e by my understanding, which is a system I'm not familiar with) given the effects of it?
I could probably ask on main site come to think of it
 
Maybe? 3.5 had a lot of spells, with all the expansions and such. Although many of its original spells are somewhat similar to those in 5e, at least in name.
 
GcL
3:52 PM
@Himitsu_no_Yami You want a 5e equivalent of an effect you saw in a cartoon that you believe was based on 3.5? Sure. Sounds par for the course here.
 
@NautArch The Escape from Omu star!?
 
@GcL maybe not even a 5e equivalent though that would be a nice bonus.
 
GcL
@Himitsu_no_Yami I could give you an Ars Magica 5 spell that would probably do it.
 
Body of Effulgent Beryl: A 10th tier spell that reduced the effectiveness of bludgeoning attacks against its subject while it was in effect, and it could completely negate one instance of bludgeoning damage after it was cast.
 
GcL
Although, depending on the magnitude of effect you could incur quite a bit of warping casting it.
 
3:54 PM
@nitsua60 Is Omu a city in Chult?
 
There was also similarly named spells for piercing and slashing
 
GcL
@Himitsu_no_Yami So bludgeoning resistance for the duration and negate first instance of bludgeoning damage?
 
@NautArch Yup =) Though, given New York's and LA's roles in the US, Escape from Port Nyanzaru would probably be more appropriate.
 
@GcL sounds about right though from my understanding the latter was an option and using it would end the spell immediately
 
@nitsua60 Ha love it! I will have to use "You may have heard of me from my Escape from XXXX"
 
GcL
3:55 PM
So instead of tomb of levistus, Prottective wrap of Sealed Air.
@Himitsu_no_Yami Gotcha.
Seems similar to dndbeyond.com/spells/investiture-of-stone in school, duration, and nature of effects.
 
Can't remember all the 3.5 expansions, but I know PF1e introduced some weird spells with specific types of damage reduction like that. And there were some spells that you could dismiss early for a special effect.
 
GcL
For just bludgeoning... pare it down a level. So 5th level effect. Drop the movement part and knocking prone bit. 2nd or 3rd level-ish. Add in the negate a single bludgeoning attack as a reaction... probably 3rd level spell. 4th or 5th if you want to drop the concentration requirement.
 
@GcL interesting, that seems like a combination of all three spells minus the spell-ending immunity and at a (much) lower spell level than it is in that anime
 
@MikeQ I'd be extremely impressed if anybody remembered every 3.5 expansion/splat.
 
GcL
@MikeQ 3.5 had a bunch of stuff along those veins as well. Slashing resistance only... never flat footed against piercing .... can only be bludgeoned while flanking on the 2nd Tuesday of the month by a prestige class with fewer than 15 hit dice.
 
4:02 PM
@GcL Yeah, many of those 3.5 spells had boosted effects depending on the caster's feats.
 
@GcL that last part sounds about right for what I've heard about 3.5
 
GcL
Yeah. If you want combat to take hours, but without the cool batletech mechs, play some 3.5
Oh, and diagonals add an additional 2 to the DC check for calculating distances.
 
I should learn 3.5 tbh. I might even use it as a base and design an actual system based on the anime which would be super cool
 
GcL
I think the only interesting thing was the extra attack mechanic was based on your attack bonus. Subsequent attacks had lower bonus. E.g. at +5 or something you got to take an extra attack at +0
 
@Himitsu_no_Yami The magic sequences in Overlord (which I assume you're referencing) are reminiscent of high-level full caster shenanigans from 3.5e
Although I don't recommend learning the whole system. There's just so much of it.
 
4:06 PM
@MikeQ That is indeed the anime
I've heard 3.5 is pretty fun
 
Fun to talk about, at the cost of being very very complicated. TL;DR wizard-types can stack all their powerful duration spells, and use feats to compound the effects, and basically break time and balance.

Lord Gareth's Martini wizard on a lawn chair

Mar 11 '14 at 12:37, 16 minutes total – 36 messages, 6 users, 15 stars

Bookmarked Mar 11 '14 at 13:46 by Zachiel

 
@Himitsu_no_Yami it can be, but you have to embrace the breakage :P and really spend your time to not get stuck in the various pitfalls along the way
 
GcL
It was interesting. It was very cumbersome and required a lot of precalculated tables and slide rules to make the combats move quickly enough. Also, there are so many options of actions to take, it's painful to play with people that have decision paralysis.
 
Another thing to consider is 3.5's level scaling. While 20th level wizards could warp reality at a whim, they usually had to start at 1st level, and work their way up the XP charts. At low levels they can die from slipping on a banana peel. And it required oodles of out-of-game system mastery to figure out the really wacky spell & feat combinations.
 
GcL
The wizards got pretty powerful pretty quickly. Quadratic power expansion... if they lived.
Artificers were kind of cool if you had downtime. They could make a lot of useful magic items without burning XP. Also could recharge them I think. I'd have to go back and re-read the mechanics of the OG Eberron stuff to see if that was under repairing ... either way, magic was the way to go in 3.5
 
4:15 PM
@MikeQ that conversation was amazing
@GcL don't think I've ever heard anyone say "decision paralysis" before
 
If you wanted to make a TTRPG about being overpowered wizards, one possible approach is Fate. So instead of actually implementing a complex magic system for players to master, you just let them make stuff up, within some loose criteria. Plus, just like Overlord, they'd start out powerful and would basically be guaranteed eventual success.
 
@Xirema As DM, I consider myself Chaotic Neutral.
 
GcL
@Himitsu_no_Yami I know some people that absolutely get mired down when given more than a few options. Even if the other options are obviously bad choices, they still bog down the decision time... seemingly exponentially. In my experience, it's worse over email.
 
So, Overlord, along with a couple other anime made me realize something. I'm a sucker for a good Isekai. Especially when they borrow actual game mechanics
@GcL I think I suffer from that myself to a small extent
 
What do you mean by "good Isekai"
does not compute
 
4:23 PM
well "good" is entirely subjective and I don't think I've actually watched an isekai I didn't like
actually wait, I take that back, there was one
didn't care for RE: Zero
 
I mean, they are quite popular, so you are far from alone in enjoying them
 
@Rubiksmoose Isekai is my favorite genre though out of everything I've seen it's by far my favorite
 
GcL
@Himitsu_no_Yami I think we all get tripped up when presented with a multitude of decisions. Some people just take an order of magnitude or two longer to make a decision ... or avoid the choice altogether. Which is really annoying to sit at a table with a player contemplating their single action for five minutes each time. I think ti's why Rummikub has a 1 minute timer per player turn.
 
I'll be honest, I've never looked hard into this to understand what actually defines an isekai, but I'm pretty sure I've seen a couple at least.
 
@Rubiksmoose tl;dr is mc get transported to another (typically fantasy) world (most often but not always via reincarnation)
it's usually either just like a video game or is the actual game world
 
4:27 PM
Gotcha. That makes sense.
 
And usually the main character enters said world with a unique ability, and the early arcs are about exploiting that ability to become ridiculously powerful
 
I see.
 
@MikeQ My most recent isekai was Death March and he becomes OP within the first couple minutes by jumping to max level almost instantly
which in turn maxes all of his stats at 999
and gives him pretty much as many skill points to spend as he likes
this conversation makes me wish anime.se's chat was more active...
 
Believe it or not, but there's plenty of crossover between people who have played tabletop RPGs and people who have watched anime
 
I don't doubt it
actually, I wish anime.se was more active as a whole. Asked a question over there like thursday and thus far it has 14 views and one comment
I wonder what makes this site so much more active than the others I frequent
 
4:42 PM
DnD :-)
And only half-facetiously that. DnD is, due to its relatively complex rules, quite good at spawning traffic for Q&A purposes
 
I suppose that's fair
 
4:56 PM
@MikeQ Example: Alice in Wonderland.
Different from the more recent reincarnatory tradition of Isekai of the video entertainment era course. ^_^
 
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