urgh

the way the community's reacting to these psionics questions hurts me

@Someone_Evil @NautArch @Akixkisu What were your close vote reasons?

Based on the edit history, the original post does look like a shopping recommendation question

It looks that way if you don't know the underlying problem, yeah.

Although yes, the community here often has a quick-draw reflex when it comes to close votes

That same community opened it back up though. No animals were harmed in the process, so it seems things are working as intended.

Doesn't read to me like no harm.

I don't enjoy seeing gamers lose their love for the hobby because of mistakes like this.

Unsure if I'd interpret it that way. Was that in response to something? I'm not able to see deleted comments that preceded it.

I've been paying close attention, and there was nothing between these comments and that one, that stayed up for any appreciable length.

Great, you have a screenshot of my comment. Does that not clarify the reason I voted to close?

Based on the user's other posts, my guess is that something got lost in translation.

Translation nothing, there was context missing from the post entirely. That's grounds for "unclear what you're asking", not "shopping is off-topic".

@Powerdork shopping question, I already-voted to re-open after you re-phrased it; though I'm not entirely sure that the question in its current state is stackable. It probably also needs some more clarification about what up to date means.

It does mention the content overlap, so it probably refers to which books encompass and correct material from other books.

Which is why I voted to re-open.

@Powerdork So to re-iterate, it is nothing about psionics (I ocassionally answer questions about them, see user:44723 psionics).

hey there @kent, welcome to the RPG.SE lair :)

@Shalvenay thank you. Although I've been here before several times.

Can we lock this until the meta is resolved? rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/165719/…

cc @nitsua60 @V2Blast

@kent welcome... back... to the RPG.SE lair

@Akixkisu Done (for a day, to allow the conversation on meta to be had and resolved).

@V2Blast <3

@Yuuki Light and Heavy aren't really to do with weight. Darts are 0.25 lb and not light. Scimitars are 3lb and light. Longbows are 2lb and heavy. Greatclubs are 10lb and not heavy.

@Adeptus thank you. And welcome back or to the rpg.se lair.

Thanks. I'm a regular from years back, but rather irregular now

Oh cool. So you survived 4e

I avoided 4e

I am reading PHB 2 for DnD 4e right now

Oh, that's got some good stuff. Invoker and Shaman have great flavor.

I really appreciated that 4e delved so deep into divine-powered alternatives to cleric and paladin, like the Invoker and Avenger.

I was pretty happy with that too

They did some good work in making stuff like your class power source (such as Divine, Arcane, Psionic, Martial, ect) matter, but also let you be a Psionic defender, or a Divine striker, or a Martial or Arcane Leader

You could be a guy who swings weapons around and shouts at people to get up,.... And they do it

XD

@BESW Yea, always wanted to play Shaman myself

@trogdor Yeah I always loved that distinction and honestly miss it. Well.... Except for Shadow

Shadow?

PHB2? I'm just going to shout out Warden!

Warden had some great options to make the battlefield your own.

@trogdor Shadow was one of the last power sources they introduced, and it was... underwhelming. Vampire.

Oh god i remember vampire

Ugh Vampire

@Miniman i forget, did you play a warden?

@trogdor No, fighter. But I stole some of their cool toys.

And of all the reading I did (which admittedly was defender focused), warden was the only one other than fighter that really appealed to me.

Ah ok

Yeah the multiclass feats and stuff were also nice

Being able to be a fighter and steal some warden marks

Or say a warlock who goes invisible to the target and then paladin marks them XD

Warden and Invoker were a few of those DnD 4e classes that I had a bit of disagreement with, lore-wise

Or "flavor" -wise at least.

Should maybe emphasize the had, I think they're ok now :>

I really like Warden

Invoker is good too but I found a Warden build I would probably use if I were to play 4e again

Invoker was my first clash with "DnD fantasy not being generic high fantasy" because it defied my expectations of what divine classes are like as well as a few expectations about RPGs in general. I played a Cleric, who gained their powers from ordination per PHB, and who ponders the mysteries of their faith with hopes of being in speaking terms with their god near the end of their adventuring career. The idea of Invokers, with direct hotlines to deities from L1... didn't sit well, at first.

that being said I am tempted by a pixie rogue build that plays like a (minotaur) barbarian XD

just because it is hilarious

The idea that Invokers seemed, lore-wise, to be like Clerics "except ACTUALLY chosen, and ACTUALLY wielding divine power", made me feel like the Clerics' thunder was being stolen. I mean, who wants to play a normal priest with benefits when one could directly wield divine power? Why earn things over the levels instead of just taking it on L1.

In retrospect, that though feels in a sense justified, but also naive on so many levels x)

mm

I mean

I didn't pay toooo much attention to the flavor of classes

all I know is that Invoker and Cleric are both divine power sources but mostly do different things with it

Yeah, mechanically of course there is no issue at all. The bigger mechanical issue feels to me that there is not as clear distinction in mechanical theming between eg. Invoker and Wizard as there is between most two classes of the same role.

oh yeah

that was a definite issue

for those two classes

By mechanical theming, I mean things like... well, Shaman is a Leader but set apart by the Spirit Guide thing that makes them play very differently from a Cleric or Warlord. And Warlord is mechanically themed by attacking through their allies. Stuff like that

mostly the biggest distinction was which power source type feats you could take

between Wizard and Invoker in particular I mean

and also of course Wizard specific stuff and Invoker specific stuff

But for the record, I don't think the Invoker vs Wizard "sameyness" in terms of the kinds of powers they have and not having major distinctive features is not a major flaw.

and the fact that Wizard was more likely to do elemental damage and Invoker was morel likely to do like, radiant

and Warden and Fighter are both sticky tanks, but Warden is Crowd Control while Fighter is single target lockdown

I think the whole Invoker vs Clerics thing feels much nicer after understanding a bit of 4e lore, and some personal headcanon additions. Plus the general understanding that the game is allowed to have a bit of setting, even unusual setting compared to generic fantasy expectation, that it can draw material from

Official DnD 4e lore has Invokers be a specifically Dawn War tradition. Sort of Divine shock troops to use versus Primordials. This origin means they are not just in service of a single god but have to respect the Divine in general. This is in my headcanon why they are not just "better clerics" --- their allegiance is to the Divine as a whole, and to a lesser extent a particular god personally, but they're not well equipped to advance the agenda of that god outside the context of the Dawn War.

They're like the elite guards of a king --- immensely useful against enemies, but of much less use when there's no enemies and the king actually needs to do something. For that, you need viziers, chancellors, other such underlings who know what the king actually wants to accomplish beyond "not getting killed" --- they're what clerics are, in my headcanon.

And the elite guard who spends all their days serving a king might know the king hates cauliflower and loves corgis, that's knowing him on a personal level. But it takes more than that to understand the implications and intentions of a king's policies.

who doesn't love corgis?

Well they're cute, but I'm not generally a huge dog person (at least by the standards of my bubble) and corgis aren't exactly my favorite breed in terms of temperament

(sorry for ~literalish answer to a rhetorical question lol)

Not sorry for using both a tilde and -ish to indicate uncertainty in that parenthetical remark.

prepares to suspend kviiri for heretical offenses against corgis... and punctuation

:P

@kviiri But you're not a huge dog person, then corgis should be just about the right size!

nah, corgis are alright

hahahaha

@BESW Yeah that's true, I'm almost skeletal in girth so I am a bit apprehensive about bigger dogs

This might be a good time to mention 도기코기 Doggie Corgi, a youtube channel of adorable ASMR-ish looping animations of doggos.

My bones are not well-hidden enough

Oh, and also:

:o

lol

I haven't met any corgi

I think they look cute but they are still dogs so I might not like them too much

at least in person

they steal socks XD

@BESW adorable

Is "What are the equivalent 5e classes to the 4E classes" an appropriate question? Bringing back memories of invokers, shaman and wardens is making me nostalgic for the last time I actually played DND

@AncientSwordRage Probably not --- there are not enough objective criteria for resolving edge cases.

@kviiri ironically, this is why I need help :p

Ask about recreating a specific 4e class in 5e, maybe, with specifics about priorities on flavor vs mechanics.

@AncientSwordRage Yeah, but do you need mainsite help or chat help? :) I've asked similar questions here, to notable success

@BESW I don't have a specific class in mind, just feeling nostalgic

(here as in the chat)

@kviiri chat help ;)

it's was a weak segue into discussing the topic

Ah, okay x)

it's was

I feel like Invoker could work as a Divine Soul Sorcerer

But there are nearly 50 4e classes, and each has at least three subclasses, some of them more than twice that many.

.....

I did not get that deeep into 4E then it seems

I found a list, it's < 50 but not by much

Depends on how you count; if you found the list with 47, it's counting the three different druids as all just druid variants. But the DDI considered them each a distinct class.

Ditto with a couple of other classes.

@AncientSwordRage My gut says Celestial Warlock'd work too

@BESW That corgi post got me interested in Puppy Day

@kviiri true

Tangentially related, but enough so

Although I can't recall Celestial's spell set... if it's traditional cleric-like it won't feel like Invoker

although I'm not clear if 'controller' in the 4E sense means more 'push and pull' or 'AoE' effects

for some reason I thought they were strikers not controllers

@AncientSwordRage The latter is the more defining feature, I'd say

@AncientSwordRage It was a catch-all for both.

Quirk, is Fey subtype

Strikers were high single-target damage, Controllers were low damage to groups and/or low damage with debuffs.

@BESW gotcha

Hm, what was the first Martial Controller class for 4e?

which makes it tricky, as I don't associate Warlock or Sorcerer mechanically with either, but I do flavour wise

@kviiri according to list I found, there wasn't one?

I think there was not one

@AncientSwordRage Huh, fascinating, I would've expected to aim for "saturating the grid" so to say x)

@kviiri Hunter was the only Martial class intended to be a controller. It's the Essentials version of the Ranger.

I associate Warlocks with endurance casting but that's a 5e-specific implementation

@kviiri My list may not be exhaustive

PHB1 Fighters were also very capable controllers if built properly, though.

Yeah and Rangers have multi-target attacks too

the spells added by the celestial warlock patron are all offa the cleric list

yeah but otoh 5e cleric is not a perfect match for 4e cleric

@Carcer Wall of Fire is technically only a Forge Cleric spell, I think, but it's a solid spell

it's definitely not

really no classes in 4e and 5e are comparable

not even like, fighter fighter

the mechanics are just not the same in either edition

besides some very weird and superficial resemblances

Yep

5e classes are in a way much more flexible, eg. a wizard has a much greater latitude in which spells to pick. One can't even assign 4e-esque roles to classes

In 5e, it's a lot more meaningful to just talk about kit options

I mean, in 4e your gear is also pretty important and useful

Like, which class has better Single Target damage, which class has AoEs, which class has X situation answer, etc.

I meant feature kits, not gear, but yeah

A Thief with Alchemist's fire in 5e is very different from most other characters

One of the only non-magic classes to do Damage Over Time with good damage

@trogdor I hated that you had another layer to optimize

@AncientSwordRage that's fair

one criticism of 4e I will definitely accept is, there were a looooot of things to keep track of

You wanted even less? Wasn't 4e super streamlined?

and optimize

I mean in some ways it was?

especially compaired to 3.5

but also, they had a lot of layers

just like @AncientSwordRage said

there were powers

@Axoren it was super streamlined so I didn't have to worry about optimizing my Warlock.... but if I didn't have the right gear I seemed to get grief from other players

there were class features

there were feats, there were items

then at level 11 a Paragon Path too

@AncientSwordRage That sounds like a table problem, I'm sorry you had to deal with that

Epic Destiny at,... level 21? I think

Also, that doesn't sound like much, to be honest

Unless I'm just ignorant to how wide all those picks are

it might not sound like much but we had people at the table who couldn't track all of that together

Coming from a history of 3.5 skipping 4e, I only know from the outside

@Axoren It wasn't a lot of grief

I'm not saying it was like, that bad

that play group were largely in it for the murder hobo dungeon crawl esque play through

I had no trouble with it, and in fact I played it practically as a side game

where as I am a thespian!

(not really, but in comparison)

but we had people at the table who couldn't keep all their powers and feats and items and all the synergies and the whole build in their head

like our fighter

I guess I can see that being troublesome for people who didn't have to suffer from the 50+-book escapades of 3.5

I basically built his character for him and sat next to him to remind him how far he could push people, and honestly I loved keeping track of that extra stuff

I know someone who could study law with the skills they learned from making a Level 1 character.

Would you say it's closer to Pathfinder than 3.5 in terms of all the extra floating digits?

I don't know if some of them never played 3.5, that could explain part of it

I know pathfinder became far more attrocious than 3.5 in terms of how many floating +1s there were, as opposed to more memorable features

I fully expect that D&D has trained a lot of those of us who have played it to keep pretty good track of it's brand of complexity

and probably some people who have not played any edition of it just don't have the initial knowledge base that would let them understand what the heck is going on in all this keeping track of characters buisness

it's easy to forget not everyone knows something when you do know it yourself

or has a skill when you happen to have it

XD

If someone is a complete D&D newbie, I recommend Shadow of the Demon Lord instead.

So many choices, all of them good, nothing to worry about.

In the core book alone, 4096 different class combinations

And that's pretty much the bulk of your choices.

Subchoices are just a handful of talents and spells, if you are in those classes.

@Axoren There's a reason why it has the silly nickname "mathfinder"

:P

scratches neck Anybody got a +1? I'll do something explicit for a +1 to Stealth checks.

But yeah, a part of 4e design that appeals to me a lot is its how it tries to avoid trap builds

Simply by making most builds baseline good?

yes

except for Seeker and Vampire

those were dud classes from the start

XD

That's what I like about Shadow of the Demon Lord.

There's no way to make a garbage character, even if you try to mix things like Druid Fighter Necromancer.

@Axoren Yep, and all classes are geared for a different type of combat awesome

And everything's attack rolls instead of saves, right?

they weren't unplayable but they were crazy weird and not quite as powerful as most other classes

@Axoren Yep. Saves are in 4e but they're a different thing

I kind of liked the idea of all types of attacks being "attacks"

Saving throws are rolled to see if a negative effect ends on you.

yeah

@Axoren Same here! :)

instead of a save to dodge for say, Reflex

Simply because when you cast a spell, the power is in someone else's control to decide if your action matters

you have a Reflex score the enemy has to hit, just like for AC

same for Fort and Will

When you roll the attack roll, it hurts less when you miss

It doesn't really make much difference in numbers

Yeah, but psychologically

No one likes having a turn doing something smart have no impact

I think it's just cleaner mechanically to have "attacks" actually mean anything that is an attack

A few members of my group and I have been working on a way to add Glancing Blows to 5e, so that even misses still contribute a fractional contribution to combat

So that some of our newer members don't get so disappointed in their low damage and low accuracy when they're doing non-optimized builds

@Axoren sounds interesting

@Axoren I think 13th Age has a good idea where classes good with a particular kind of combat always deal damage with their attacks, even when missing

I also had an idea on how to make True Strike not suck and we're gonna be testing it at some point two weeks from now.

Instead of advantage, it should just set a lower bound for the dice roll.

Eg. a Fighter's basic melee attack deals damage equal to the Fighter's level even when it misses. It's much less than it would normally deal, but still not a "wasted turn"

That sounds like it would be really good in 5e

How much damage does a fighter normally do?

I loved that 4e introduced me to the idea of having the roll always face the active party.

Weapon + Strength... not sure how to interpret that. I have only a very passing knowledge of the 13th Age rules.

Made it a lot stronger, but it's still on-par with other cantrips in the math aspect

The 8 is very flexible

@Axoren Just throwing this out there: for less bookkeeping, how about instead of having a duration, it allowed the target to make an attack with those benefits immediately as a reaction?

@kviiri True Strike has traditionally had a turn delay as a balancing mechanism.

That'd be markedly stronger, though, yeah.

And while I hate it, I kind of agree with it.

I can find a number of ways to make that too strong

You would, for example, just use it every turn.

Hm, right. It's a cantrip after all

You're right

using your reaction is potentially very expensive

My version would probably be more appropriate as L1 spell

I did the math and the most this can contribute is 35% of the attacks damage-on-hit as DPR

if it's an action cantrip, it still stops you from benefiting from any of the normal benefits you get if you were using the Attack action, like extra attack or twf

Because let's say you hit on an 8 already, your DPR is 65% of your damage-on-hit.

The True Strike (homebrew) only gives you an extra 35% over it.

I don't see it being hideously overpowered if it lets you make one weapon attack with advantage

@Carcer You would do that every turn and it would devalue advantage granting options

why would you do that every turn

Advantage is better than not advantage

if you have extra attack, making two attacks is better than one attack with advantage

Until you get extra attack

^

You'd use it until level 5, then you'd stop using it.

Or you'd buy a Double-Bladed Scimitar at level 1 and stop using it immediately

if you have anything else you need to do with your turn, like cast a different spell, you'd do that

A cantrip should have ample contribution at all levels.

if you want to be able to twf, you'd have to use attack action instead

You should never want to "replace" a cantrip.

I mean, sure, it's still not great

but it's not overpowered

The one I presented is on par with Ray of Frost and Firebolt even if used on something ridiculous like a Level 19 Rogue's sneak attack.

Which seems to be the sweetspot

Same with using it with Steel Wind Strike, and a few other spell attack spells

The trade-off is average DPR vs. potential maximum DPR

And it's useful at all levels

Also, the cover stuff was tacked on at the end because it's got a chance of accomplishing absolutely nothing otherwise.

I desperately need moe coffee

@AncientSwordRage guess who just got a steamy mug of black goodness with cardamom and cinnamon.

@Akixkisu glances sideways not me

@AncientSwordRage ;)

grumble grumble just have a starbucks filter

@AncientSwordRage I grind by hand, and mix by hand, so no filters for me.

@Akixkisu my grinder handle is MIA

Plunge-style cold brew using a pitcher with built-in tea strainer.

If I'm ambitious I add cinnamon/cloves/turmeric/cayenne to the strainer too.

@BESW living the good life. Cayenne is such an upgrade for cold mornings.

I recommend a similar mix for hot chocolate, plus ginger.

I agree, though I also add some brown cane sugar because when it comes to choco you better pamper yourself.

I like my chocolate pretty bitter. I usually start with baker's chocolate.

I have much to learn

That's not exactly the recipe I use today, but it's a solid base for experimentation.

I tend to use nut juice instead, no much a fan of soy juice for beverages.

I've switched to nut juice in the five years since that post, yeah.

Do you have oat milk there? I have no idea how widespread it is

I drink it somewhat regularly, I like the cerealy taste :)

Our access to milk substitutes is... inconsistent, unless you're willing to pay a great deal.

@kviiri Oat is the only one I can get along with

I started with oat milk for baking (I have lots of vegan friends) with leftovers for other cooking and chocolate drinks, but eventually started liking it as-is.

I haven't tried the oat milks

have been generally using soy milk for cereals and cooking

It's thinner than normal milk, but that's about it. The oat flavour is less pervasive than the other milks as well

@AncientSwordRage Depends on the brand, esp around here! (of course, also on which milk you compare to...)

There's big differences in eg. fat content which affects the texture a lot

I'm blessed by the close proximity of a local store that is all about vegan coffee (and sweets) that set its purpose on being affordable + pair that with generally low food prices in Germany and it is a bargain to get excellent products for cheap.

@BESW Ovomaltine sounds good, I think I'm going to try that.

(not exactly relevant, but "thinner than normal milk" reminded me of it)

@BESW do you recommend regular, crunchy or something else?

Regular or crunchy what?

I like my what smooth.

I always strain the pulp out of my what

I prefer homestyle what

I know it's controversial, but I like to eat what cold the next day, on toast.

omg cold next-day what is so good! Maybe even better than fresh what.

And if you can't get any what, try the wat instead. It's a bit flatter but still good.

@BESW Ovomaltine

Umm. [does a quick Google]

I feel dangerously close to a pulp fiction reference

And avoid any waht. It's often a fake product.

oooh. Not Ovomaltine. Ovaltine.

@Akixkisu bad egg juice

@BESW they sound like the same thing, as ovaltine is often (if not always) malted

They are very much not.

Ovaltine does not come in crunchy.

I use non-malted chocolate Ovaltine, but that'd be up to personal preference.

@BESW ah, there I hoped for non-milk malted juice.

woah! ovomaltine is basically ovaltine nutella? I dig it

Consider an egg, boiled (y'know, like a boiled egg) except.... It's long. A long egg. I don't know why this idea makes me so uncomfortable, but just the concept that an egg could be long is upsetting to me

@goodguy5 For some reason, this makes me incredibly uncomfortable. Why would you do this

@Akixkisu I grew up on soy due to a milk allergy that I have since outgrown. Used to love it, though. But now we're a whole milk household. I agree with Ron on his assessment of skim.

@NautArch I try to avoid soy. The most premier reason being that it's high in estrogen. (I also avoid IPAs, but that's because they're gross)

But I also don't like it, so that's fine.

@goodguy5 Didn't have much choice when I was a kid. Just drank what my parents gave me ;)

oh yea. and soy was the only alternative milk available for a while.

Has anyone tried hemp milk? I'm pretty curious about it.

@goodguy5 With the US relaxing laws around hemp useage, that could see an upsurge

@RevenantBacon just to make sure it's clear, hemp as in the non psycho-active fibrous plant.

@goodguy5 same plant, just different parts

I mean... and different ... breeds? (can't think of the word)

@goodguy5 strains?

Variety is a catchall that works

@NautArch Strain would be the correct term, yes.

Anyways, still the same plant, just different volumes of particular chemicals

@CollinB I used to volunteer in a student org's wholesale contact department and I should say, I am familiar with that thing and it has a slightly hilarious name in my language

In the name of basic decency I shall leave it at that