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12:07 AM
@Ben hiya
 
Ben
How we do
 
@Ben not great; my singing group for school was supposed to have a video together for the virtual open mic today and things went kinda badly
Not enough people submitted the audio submissions, 1/3 of those who did needed to redo it cause the alto part track doesn’t match the soprano 1 tempo, and we literally only filled one solo cause the people putting in the work are mostly altos and us altos only had one solo to do and most of us can’t hit the soprano solo
and the video submission deadline for open mic is at 5 and it’s 4:16
 
Ben
12:27 AM
Oh dear DX
 
12:59 AM
Okay, so Delta Green isn't workin' for me but after this module we're gonna try War of Ashes!
 
@AncientSwordRage You've asked a question about a technology that we as a species haven't developed into a viable prototype and said "why would a civilization with bronze age technology who depends entirely on agriculture to survive develop this technology?". As we, with our current level of technology, don't have a concrete idea of the limitations of such a technology, it's hard to imagine what a society so far down the tech tree would have a need for circuits...
 
@BESW sorry about your game. What’s war of ashes?
 
...before things like reduction of labour required to produce the food stock (ala modern farming). Based on our understanding of silicon based electronics though, high levels of precision and engineering are required to make a circuit that works. Even simple circuits require resistors and/or logic gates to do computation.
 
@BardicWizard War of Ashes: The Fate of Agaptus by Sophie Lagacé is a fantasy adventure setting/system that adapts Fate to high-crunch tactial combat without losing the character/motive-driven elements of Fate. Its tone is described as "grimsical;" think "the Muppets do Game of Thrones."
@AncientSwordRage I think both the question and the answers are struggling with the idea of technology as a hierarchy, with our specific development path being a default order rather than just the one we stumbled onto.
 
@BESW yeah, I'm thinking that society would be whole-in on using that to keep track of taxes etc
 
1:11 AM
So, your question pre-supposes that the society has created (by accident or by design) those components, but is somehow limited to bronze age technology whose economy is agriculture based. From an amount of work per head of population required, a big part of the reason we flourish as a society now, is that we have freed up time to enable the people who are better at thinking to think for a living instead of digging up the ground for a living.
 
@illustro I don't think I'm asking why, but if it were developed/discovered serendipitously what is the first problem as a society they'd try to solve with it if any
@Shalvenay that's one of the answers and it's pretty darn good
 
After all, trees have figured out complex interfaces for passing nutrients based on need and capacity, including extreme exceptions like supporting toxin-cleaners which can't produce their own sugars at all.
 
@BESW accidentally stared, but albino redwoods are always worth making people aware of
 
To give you an example, in the 1400s, in our society, between 50 and 75% of all employment was in the production of food. That doesn't leave a lot of the mental capacity of the spieces left fr non-food related work
As some of that left-over needs to go to clothing people, and reproducing...and then of course there was the horrific death rates and low levels of mortality in a pre-industrial society that hasn't discovered bacteria or anti-biotics
 
I think part of the reason I didn't really want to anchor it in a time or place, is that I did not want the answers to be "this would used to defeat invaders/wipe out plague/make rugs for royalty X"
 
1:18 AM
True, but you also introduced the idea of electrical circuitry to your question by mentioning cable bacteria (whose job is conducting electricity in the hypothetical circuit)
So, you've tied the question to an electrical engineering topic, but said "you don't have access to electrical engineering"
 
@illustro alternate pasta can develop practices at different times. The practice of Electrical engineering arose because of the study of electronics not the other way round?
 
Yes, but we know things about an electrical circuit that are required for computation (resistors & logic gates)...which is electrical engineering
 
We know those things because we have wires. They have cable bacteria which function analogously, so they can have analogous knowledge
 
IF you want someone, without that knowledge, to design a circuit by growing bacteria (which require a level of technology that is quite high to know about in the first place), then you need to give them a pre-ciruit reason to have produced circuits like that in the first place
 
@AncientSwordRage Off the very top of my head, astronomy and architecture would get a MASSIVE boost from automated counting tools.
Astronomy and weather patterns would feed into agricultural efficacy, and the ability to calculate things like architectural loads and heat exchange would lead to more advanced and efficient designs for homes and storage. Might wind up with stuff like yakhchāls, bâdgir, and qanat thousands of years ahead of our progress. See also: more efficient energy systems like windmills and waterwheels.
 
1:24 AM
@illustro I'd think that bacterial "circuitry" wouldn't really follow the normal logic-gates paradigm we're used to from electronics
@BESW and definitely!
 
We know from structures like henges that generational tracking of astronomical data was significant enough to invest a great deal of resources into.
 
@Shalvenay you need some way to compute, and if you are using electricity (which the question is), then you need resistors. If you are using something else, then you need some form of logic gate, though which to apply the logic of the circuit (regardless of what is flowing through it)
But, yes, like @BESW said, if you want things that an agrarian society would use such circuitry for once it has been discovered (regardless of the mechanism of the circuit itself) then counting things is going to be the first thing anyone would want to do...because counting things is hard for a brain to do accurately
 
@illustro that is an excellent point, but I'm happy into chalk it up to either dumb luck, eons of chance, or something else that makes sense. Its not an insurmountable problem in my eyes
 
I'm not buying the notion that agricultural societies are necessarily limited to agriculture-based brainpower. That just seems like an oversimplificiation at best.
And even if it weren't, agricultural-focused thinking is still big on logic, deduction, and the physical sciences.
 
@BESW especially when the bacteria were talking about are in the ground they're working
 
1:30 AM
@illustro neurons really don't fit the digital "gate" abstraction all that well, nor do op-amps :P
both are integral parts of ways of computing using electricity
 
@AncientSwordRage And many kinds of electric flow can often be modeled as roughly equivalent to hydraulic flow; you can actually make hydraulic logic circuits and resistors. And if there's anything you can be ding-dang sure an agrarian society's thinking about constantly, it's the flow of water.
 
@BESW It's more a question of opportunity cost. If 75% of your population is making food, 15% is caring for the next generation who will make food or producing the tools required to make food, and 5% is the children unavailable for work, then there isn't a whole lot of population left of an appreciable age.
 
@BESW yah, that's a big one for sure, hydraulics and hydrology are huge
 
I'm just gonna lift this from Wikipedia because I'm not gonna do any more effort than that for this tangent.
> Agriculture allows a much greater density of population than can be supported by hunting and gathering and allows for the accumulation of excess product to keep for winter use or to sell for profit. The ability of farmers to feed large numbers of people whose activities have nothing to do with material production was the crucial factor in the rise of surplus, specialization, advanced technology, hierarchical social structures, inequality, and standing armies. Agrarian societies thus support the emergence of a more complex social structure.
 
@Shalvenay Neurons sort of do (in that there are one or more "activation states" of a neuron, and the actual flow between neurons is chemical not electrical). While it may not fall into a binary form of logic gate, there is definitely something analagous to a gate in a neuron)
 
1:37 AM
So yeah, an automated counting tool would allow for even further complexity and speed in social undertakings... but I'd be cautious about assuming that speed would be a major factor in its appeal and the decision to apply it to a given task.
 
@BESW yeah, I'd think precis would matter more than speed even
 
Oh definitely, agriculture enables an emergence of a more complex society by virtue of both a more consistent and plannable food supply, and an increase in your population (due to the plannable food supply). It also produces an impetus to produce technology that reduces the effort required for agriculture, freeing up more people to do non-agriculture based things (because agriculture is hard, back-breaking work without tech...)
 
The modern ubiquity of computing machines in all manner of roles comes from the valuing of automated speed over human judgement, and that was a cultural value. The integration of mechanical computation into society might have taken a very different path if it had been developed in a different set of attitudes.
 
Accuracy, and storage over repeated operations would (imo) be the most important factors
 
@illustro there is a marble-based logic-gate educational toy/game turingtumble.com
 
1:43 AM
@AncientSwordRage Personally if I was gonna do worldbuilding around plant-based computation, I'd avoid cable bacteria in favor of root networks' ability to filter and distribute chemicals and minerals.
Slower, perhaps MUCH slower, but with a lot more variables than electricity because inputs and outputs could be any kind of chemical you can feed into the network, and any kind of plant behaviour that influences the network or is influenced by it, rather than being limited to electricity's small number of qualities like on/off and frequency.
 
@Adeptus The reason I was focusing on electricity was because the question we were talking about pre-supposed electricity (via cable bacteria). There are definitely other ways of doing computation (ala abacus).
 
@BESW very interesting, I may end up doing both?
Chemicals could act like a PNP junctions on a macro scale.
I have to shoot off, but this has been fun, educational and enlightening
Ciao for niao
 
ttfn
 
@illustro look at a mechanical adding machine, for that matter :)
 
I love this idea, because biotech was some of our very earliest complex technology. It makes a lot of sense that an alternate history would have delved even further into breeding and domesticating plants and bacteria for specialized use.
 
2:07 AM
It's a technology direction I really enjoyed when I read Zarah the Windseeker.
 
@BESW I bought The Thousand Cousins yesterday (haven't read through it yet). I was looking at about 20 items on sale on itch.io, ended up just getting a few.
 
2:23 AM
@Adeptus Ooooh
 
@Adeptus it's definitely interesting :)
 
3:23 AM
Does anyone know of a good recording of Mozart’s requiem mass, specifically the dies irae portion, on the internet for free? Youtube keeps giving me things that aren’t actually what I’m looking for and ogg files on wikimedia commons won’t play on my phone anymore
 
Free for what? Personal listening, commercial reuse...?
 
Reference notes for ominous Latin chanting
 
Thank you
 
3:42 AM
@BardicWizard You might also enjoy some Kirile Loo?
 
Ben
4:05 AM
@AncientSwordRage odd question, but you'd likely know the process. Who do you go see about ADD/ADHD? Neurologist or just a therapist? Or just the GP?
 
 
2 hours later…
6:06 AM
My table's reaction after they managed to survive&win a boss encounter against a guy with 300HP, 20AC, who opened combat by trying to twin-cast Power Word: Kill against two party members:
 
Ah, that brings me back to chain-casting finger of death in 3.5.
(Imagine a chain lightning spell, but it's save-or-die instead of lightning.)
(Also fun: twinned chained chain lightning.)
 
Oh dear.
 
 
2 hours later…
8:09 AM
1
Q: Does a Rogue with Cardsharp (Deadly Dealer) need the Quick Draw feat to keep throwing cards if he is holding the deck of cards?

Jhyarelle SilverDoes a Rogue with Cardsharp (Deadly Dealer) need the Quick Draw feat to keep throwing cards if he is holding the deck of cards if he has more attacks per round?

 
 
1 hour later…
9:38 AM
@Anaphory yopp!
 
Howdy!
 
What's new?
 
So so many things. I haven't been here in ages, have I? On the role playing front, I've dug deeply into Cyber- and other punk games earlier this year, and now I'm delving into travel&coming-of-age.
Oh!
And I meant to ask you whether you have any good pointers for safety tools in online games.
 
Ooh, cool.
I've been looking for an opportunity to try the cyberpunk game Balikbayan: Returning Home by Jamila R. Nedjadi. It's a techno-supernatural Filipino game about returning to Earth and reclaiming it while throwing off dystopian conditioning.
And re: travel, Wanderhome by Possum Creek is looking really good.
@Anaphory What kind of pointers?
 
I have seen Balikbayan that popping up while looking for Belonging-outside-Belonging games, and it did not capture my interest as much as other games in that family, but one of my friends also found it. Wanderhome is high on my list, only beaten by Flying Circus because that same friend is into aviation and 20th century history and stuff, so it won out.
 
9:51 AM
And I've got some game materials with travel on my itch page, but they're probably not what you're looking for.
 
I was somewhat part to a Fiasco game last week, and that showed a severe lack of tools to establish consent. I was late and someone else had done the explanations and the setup and in the post-game discussion when I asked they realized they had only vaguely explained how to establish common ground and how to veil or veto sensitive content.
There were definitely moments when I refrained from suggesting things or felt awkward for things going on in the scene and didn't know how it could be X-ed by others or by me, and as it turned out there had been no established ways to do it. So I thought you might know some ways that work and some ways that don't work in the vein of translating X-cards and other tools to online play.
I have not really played sensitive-rich games online with people I don't know well from face-2-face games, so I'm a bit at a loss.
 
I've been struggling with this myself, and it really hammers home the inescapable fact that safety tools can empower a group's willingness to care for each other--but never force it or replace it.
[rummages]
A couple months ago Kienna Shaw added "Using Safety Tools in Online Play" to the TTRPG Safety Toolkit.
Most of it is translating table tools to online spaces.
 
Empowerement is what I look for, willingness is definitely there. I'll go check that out, thank you!
 
I have yet to see any online-specific tools that seemed useful.
But you might consider whether The Buddy System is a useful structure to add to your table.
In my games, we're usually playing with Discord voice-and-chat, and we use Script Change's buttons as both verbal cues ("pause") and server-specific custom emojis, so people use voice or chat as they need.
It's... not great? I want to do more.
Oh, and check out Wanderhome's "Journeying Tools." It's not tailored for online play but I think it's a super helpful way to frame safety conversations as social scripts:
 
Yes, I saw those and I really liked them.
 
10:04 AM
I dunno if you saw my safety tool in Goblin Court?
 
No, I don't even remember Goblin Court!
 
Jan 25 at 3:41, by BESW
Goblin Court by BESW, a #GoblinWeekGames submission about living your best life in spite of human drama.
Here's the r🐘 page:
 
@Ben This is all UK based, but initially I was referred to an 'Educational Psychologist' from my GP. Now I'm trying to find someone via my GP but not luck so far
 
The Guardian Spirit deliberately creates a liminal space that is both in character and out of character, as the player needs. This is supposed to make it easier to "interrupt" play, because it's still part of the game.
 
That is a similar reason to why the Journeying Tools stood out to me.
 
10:11 AM
Yeah, they have the same "coherent theming" energy that makes them more than just a generic overlay.
 
In any case, some general pointers (we are currently game hopping quite a bit) are already better than wanting to establish consent and comfort without knowing how.
 
That's legit.
I've recently struggled in games where I know everybody's supportive, but I'm so used to being the GM that I don't know how to self-advocate without just taking over.
 
@BESW not taking over is definitely a challenge
 
There've been a few instances in recent games where I felt like a GM was, in their hurry to support specific players' requests, not giving time for the whole table to calibrate to the changes.
 
I forget where I read this but there is a concept of Leader and Authority. The leader points the direction and the Authority approves these choices
I think there's room in a group for being the 'head-player' if done carefully, who then passes stuff onto the GM
This is supposed to remove the issue where the GM has to be BOTH, say on rules questions when they aren't as familiar with the rules
 
10:22 AM
Yeah, it's definitely a struggle and when I'm working with a GM who's taking on roles that my GMing style divests...
It may seem like I'm trying to replace the GM instead of trying to be a contributing player?
 
@BESW is it worth checking with the GM?
 
I'm working on that? I'm a lot better at navigating these kinds of conversations in person, so the distance factor is really tripping me up.
 
It's quite a skill/challenge to use guiding questions without sounding condescending
@BESW I'm 100% with you
 
10:42 AM
I'm going to be facilitating a GMless game (Wanderhome) soon, which will be interesting, and at some point in the near future it looks like I'll be filling a sort of "table manager" role so the GM can focus on the gameplay.
 
Table manager sounds like a good role
 
We haven't nailed down details yet, but I'll be offering to help with session pacing like taking breaks and ending with time to do a debrief, doing check-ins to make sure everyone's okay and not confused, calibrating expectations, and probably some bookkeeping tasks as well.
One of the biggest improvements I've ever had at any of my tables (ping @Anaphory ) was making sure to wrap up the gameplay part of a session with at least fifteen minutes to reflect, recap, congratulate, complain, and plan, without anyone feeling pressured to wrap it it up fast because they have to be somewhere.
(And also making time at the beginning helps a lot too, but that wrap session is absolutely crucial. If it's rushed, people won't bring up sensitive concerns and needs until the situation has already become a dire problem.)
Just... making space for people to talk comfortably... is massive.
 
10:57 AM
Wanderhome also sounds interesting because it does yet another distribution of ‘traditional GM responsibility’ among players. Although it doesn't sound like it would address your problem of divesting your ‘suggestive story power’.
 
Safety tools, mostly, are ways to pry open those spaces and give explicit permission to speak, and structure to the speech, for people/groups who would otherwise feel like they were interrupting or not be sure how to express their needs.
eg, every Wanderhome character sheet has the Journeying Tools listed right there in the same space as all the powers and features and moves the character has access to during play.
 
11:14 AM
@BESW It's interesting that I've never come up against this need
 
I didn't notice the need in myself or the people around me until I made space for it to come out. Not saying it's the same for you, but--my own experience is that a lot of problems just remain as a buildup of irritants because we don't know how to ask for solutions; for me it sometimes doesn't even occur to me that something IS a thing that could be fixed, it just feels like an inevitable part of the game experience that I need to endure if I'm going to play at all.
 
@BESW hmm, thinking now there are things I could have used it for
 
12:04 PM
In interesting world news, DeepMind has made a significant advancement in the protein folding problem: nature.com/articles/d41586-020-03348-4
(which may also be categorised as a solution)
 
@illustro And I thought folding laundry was a chore
I started thinking up my generation ship/heist novel as a simple easy to write story, and I'm dragging myself more and more into the world building and realising I have more important/sensitive topics to cover than I realised
 
 
2 hours later…
1:44 PM
@Medix2 You see my answer to Arms of Hadar?
 
@ThomasMarkov Yeah, agree to disagree I suppose
 
I dont see how the aoe is not a sphere.
 
I'd say being within 10 feet is very different from having a radius of 10 feet. One stays the same regardless of creature size.
 
My answer didnt say the aoe had a radius of 10 feet. Just that it was a sphere.
 
But I removed my comments since they felt irrelevant
 
1:54 PM
@Medix2 Yet both are spheres.
 
@ThomasMarkov Not if the creature isn't affected XD
 
@Medix2 That's affirming the consequent.
 
Sphere with hole ≠ sphere
Yes but assuming it is a sphere is also, well, an assumption
 
Now I want a spell with a torus aoe
 
Though I guess you could just measure the other way and definitively include the caster
 
1:56 PM
Technically Wizard's aoe "sphere" is actually a ball.
 
@ThomasMarkov It's true!
 
Im not assuming its a sphere. The definition of the area of effect is equivalent to defining a sphere.
 
@ThomasMarkov What is the (I'm assuming mathematical) distinction between ball and sphere?
 
@Someone_Evil In three dimensions, a sphere is the boundary of a ball.
So "sphere" properly only includes the surface, a ball includes the whole volume.
 
Ahh, that makes sense I suppose
 
2:01 PM
I'm sure it makes more sense in some random other languages
 
Youre right, it isnt a sphere. And much to my chagrin, Wizard's failed to include rules for adjudicating a rounded cuboid.
 
@ThomasMarkov And now I'm suddenly questioning whether the "Diagonals are 5-10-5" and "diagonals are 5" rules apply to AoEs...
 
@Medix2 Who's to say.
 
Clearly they should've just gone with taxicab
 
howdy howdy
 
2:13 PM
@ThomasMarkov A distinction between a hollow sphere and a full one are not something that would be a consideration for Wizards. In common English, a sphere is not specifically a hollow item, and only references the surface shape, not whether it is hollow or not.
 
Thomas Markov is likely painfully aware of natural language in 5e XD
 
@Medix2 Are you measuring an area of effect or measuring a range?
 
@Someone_Evil uh... Yes
Gotta love that that's a question that matters XD
 
@Medix2 These optional rules and variants as written will apply the diagonal rule to one (when measuring a range), but not when applying an area of effect (such as a sphere). The latter uses shape overlap (over half) to determine distance or not
 
Tiny creature only take up a quarter square right?
 
2:18 PM
Also, I don't see how Arms wouldn't affect an area the is sphere-shaped.
 
I think so
 
@ThomasMarkov That's Pathfinder. In 5e, I think they can just share spaces
 
@RevenantBacon I think its cuz you technically measure from the vertices and edges of the square the caster occupies.
 
Maybe
 
Which makes a nearly spherical cuboid rather than a sphere proper.
 
2:21 PM
I suppose, technically that's probably correct, but that's only because you're measuring from the edge of a creatures space rather than a point centered on the creature.
 
The projection of the aoe onto the floor would look like this:
Not quite circular.
So arms of hadar actually hits all but the corners of a 5x5 square.
 
I think you get the same result using ranges and the 5-10-diagonals rule
 
IF the creature is not in the Area of Effect then there is a creature shaped hole in the middle of that AoE diagram.
But even so, for the purposes of drawing diagrams on squares and hexes, the rule is, regardless of shape "Choose an intersection of squares or hexes as the point of origin of an area of effect, then follow it's rules as normal. If an effect is circular and covers at least half a square it affects that square." (DMG adjudicating areas of effect)
In your diagram, you have it originating from the entirety of a square, which is not correct.
 
2:36 PM
Personally, it seems fairly clear that the intent is not for the caster to be affected (otherwise it would at least have some allusion to you doing that to yourself), and my player certainly would expect it, so it doesn't
 
For the purposes of Arms of Hadar, the caster is not in the area of effect, but any creatures, even those in the caster's square, are within the area of effect (so for example, a tiny pet on your shoulder is in the AoE even if you aren't)
@Someone_Evil Yep, and that's what I've argued for in my answer to the question
 
@AncientSwordRage sounds like Warren Blank's work on leadership bring an act in most cases
 
I don't know if this is accurate, but every online description of the spell I can find says Range: Self (10 foot radius)
 
It is
 
@illustro Also, why would the creature not be in the radius?
 
2:42 PM
@Someone_Evil One would need to be uncharitable towards the writers to presume that the spell would by default harm the caster.
 
@RevenantBacon Because the tendrils erupt from the caster
(and then batter everything around them)
 
Right, but the caster is still included in the radius. If something is in your space, such as a tiny creature, it still gets hit.
And the range of the spell is specifically a radius, so the area is in fact, a sphere
 
No, it specifies a radius, but does not specify a sphere
 
@RevenantBacon Right, dead familiar, coming up. Reducto absurdum - let's ruin fun at the table, shall we?
 
Radius is also used for cones, discs, torus, hollow shells and a bunch of other shapes
 
2:46 PM
@illustro Well, theoretically it could be a cylinder, but I find that unlikely.
 
For it to be a sphere it has to explicitly say it's a sphere
 
And those are the only spell shapes in the game with a radius
 
The rules state there are 5 common areas of effect
 
Well it has a radius, so it can't be a cube of a square
 
common =/= all
It can be a spheroid with a hole in the middle exactly shaped like the caster
 
2:48 PM
@KorvinStarmast could be where it originated
I've seen it pop-up elsewhere after reading about it
 
@KorvinStarmast I mean it would be thematically appropriate for a certain type of warlock (the paying for power with anything at hand), but that's not one divulged in elsewhere in the game
 
Well, the spell isn't described as having a special area of effect, such as a torus, and cyliner or cone wouldn't make much sense
It could have been a cube, except that it has a radius
 
@RevenantBacon Sure it is, the AoE is described by the spell's description (per the rules). The rules say it is a shape that has a 10ft radius, that erupts from the caster
 
It could theoretically be a disc as well, but that's also unlikely, as it doesn't exclude with 10 feet vertically
 
which to me reads exactly like a spheroid with a caster shaped hole in the middle
 
2:50 PM
Right, but that doesn't actually exclude the caster
But it doesn't exclude the caster
All spells come from a single point of origin
 
How so? erupt specifically conveys movement away from the caster (not also into the caster)
 
@illustro We have a question on whether spirit guardians changes AoE size with the caster's size. With votes pointing towards the spell coming from the creature's entire space
 
Sure, it moves away from the caster, but that only gives us a direction for the movement
 
Though having upvotes ≠ being "right", whatever that means
 
it could erupt from just their pinky finger, or maybe from an eye. Who knows, it's magic
 
2:52 PM
If the AoE is always moving away from the caster, how can it include the caster?
 
Because the caster occupies more than a single point in space
 
@illustro balls/spheres are the only shape that can be defined solely with a single radius
 
It erupts from the caster, and moves in a direction
@Medix2 100% agree
 
Looks like we found a hole in the rules, shocker XD
 
@AncientSwordRage That's not actually true
see Hypercube
also regular polygons
 
2:55 PM
Yes but using a radius to define any of those does not follow standard English
Cubes have side lengths, not radii
5e regularly calls them "10-foot cubes" and not "10-foot radius cubes"
 
Heypercubes and regular polygons do have radii
 
Meissner tetrahedra?
 
Not in standard English
 
In common English, a radius is a line extending from a centerpoint to an edge, of a circle or sphere only
 
In mathematical language, sure. To your average rules-reader, not at all
 
2:56 PM
Yes they do
 
@illustro No. The rules for 5e are based on common English usage only
 
Similarly then "sphere" isn't be used correctly by the rules so... Applying expectations of mathematical precision to 5e is... A bad idea
 
dang, I go to a meeting for 15 minutes and come back to 60+ messages
 
In common English, radius is only used for circles and spheres
 
@RevenantBacon Also arm bones.
 
2:57 PM
@illustro I was assuming 3 dimensions
@illustro which of the 48 regular polygons requires a radius, and not an edge length?
 
@ThomasMarkov Fair. But I don't think that we're measuring spell effects with arm-parts as units :p
 
@RevenantBacon ARMS of Hadar. Come on.
 
Oh damn, u right
 
@RevenantBacon Actually no they don't "Typically, a point of origin is a point in space, but some spells have an area whose origin is a creature or object."
(PHB)
It is entirely possible for a magical effect to radiate away in all directions from teh entire surface of the caster
 
Each Arm of Hadar is actually a 10 foot radius (implying a similarly long ulna).
 
2:59 PM
*the
 
We have like... At least three other questions on effects and creature spaces vs points
 
The other thing to take into account is that it is calledArms of Hadar...not Sphere of HAdar
 
Now I must homebrew the spell legs of Hadar.
 
Legs of Hadar will have an area of effect that is a permutohedron.
 
3:04 PM
There is a difference between what the spell does on a square grid, vs how it acts in Theatre of the Mind btw. The rules saying "pick an intersection" are about translating a spell onto a square or hex grid, not proscribing that all spells must have one of 5 described shapes
And questions about specific spells or magic items (like the first two) cannot be used to generalise to a rule for all spells, because D&D is an inherently exceptions based game, with magic being the most prominent and prolific of them
 
Can we at least agree that the overwhelming majority of players are going to find the "doesnt affect the caster ruling" to be more conducive to fun play?
 
Yeah but nobody really asks questions about AoEs size and shape for TotM games XD
@ThomasMarkov +1
 
@ThomasMarkov Oh we can, absolutely
 
But if my player made a build that benefitted from being target by the spell, I'd also let them have it do that
 
This is so very obviously a bug, not a feature.
 
3:06 PM
@Medix2 Sure they do "how many baddies do I hit"
 
@illustro Well perhaps I just have yet to see one with a meaningful answer outside of "It's TotM, ask the GM"
 
I don't really see it as either, as the rules allow for non-standard shapes, specified by the spells description. Just because they also specify rules for 5 common shapes (which they acknowledge are the most common shapes for AoEs), does not mean those are the only shapes possible and therefore we must fit all shapes into those 5 shapes
 
GM: "It's theater of mind. I dont know what going on either."
4
 
@ThomasMarkov Yeah basically XD
At least we didn't get into the mess of rotating 3D cubes to make their affected area larger XD
 
Maybe this is a bad habit, but when I DM theater of mind I give my distances in intervals. "How far away am I from the goblin?" "Eh, 25 to 30 feet or so."
And when it matters about exact range, like for ranged weapon ranges, I just make a call and usually am lenient toward the player.
 
3:10 PM
@ThomasMarkov I just pick out arbitrary terms to consistently use. Like "Close" and "Far"
 
@Medix2 I have in games I've DM'd (or at least had to adjudicate it for my players due to "you select a cube's point of origin, which lies anywhere on the face of a cubic effect")
 
extra medium close. So I can hit with a polearm? Sure?
 
@ThomasMarkov Precisely!
 
@AncientSwordRage Cyclic n-gons
By virtue of the regularness, they just need a number of sides, and a radius, since all edges are equally sized (by definition of being regular)
 
@illustro that's a non-standard definition though?
Also not all polygons can be constrained by a circle
 
3:18 PM
Nope, it's a perfectly acceptable definition that describes a whole family of regular polygons
 
@Medix2 I'm generally a believer in the auras extending from the outer edge of a creature and not from their center. But that's a houserule...I think.
 
I dindn't say they could, you asked for which of them can
 
@illustro non-standard ≠ unacceptable
@illustro that's fair
 
@AncientSwordRage en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circumscribed_circle "Not every polygon has a circumscribed circle. A polygon that does have one is called a cyclic polygon, or sometimes a concyclic polygon because its vertices are concyclic. All triangles, all regular simple polygons, all rectangles, all isosceles trapezoids, and all right kites are cyclic"
Whether or not a polygon is cyclic is a standard classification for a polygon
 
We are getting dangerously close to the Plane of Math here :P
 
3:23 PM
We are...but by citing wikipedia...the font of all non-math knowledge, I think we are fine :P
 
hehehe
 
@illustro That is an entirely non-standard definition of radius. In common English, radius means the distance from a centerpoint to an edge. It is not a measure of a side
 
I don't know if it's me changing, but questions that make things 'unfun' grind my gears. Yes, you can read things like that, and it may even be 'right'...but dang!
Don't look at the rules in a vacuum.
 
And considering that 5e is not a math simulator, any non-standard, advanced-math-only definitions of words shouldn't be applied
 
3:41 PM
@RevenantBacon How would you describe a cyclic 200-gon using your "standard" definition?
You are making a destinction on "standard" that doesn't exist in English
 
@illustro Basically a circle
 
@Someone_Evil Ok, what about a cyclic 15-gon?
 
@illustro I would, in fact, describe it a a circle, because in D&D 5e, there are no "cyclic 200-gons". I am making a distinction in standard that 100% applies in English.
 
@RevenantBacon According to who? Where in the rules does it say that there are only 5 shapes in D&D 5e?
 
@illustro It would be described by side length, angle of corners, and number of sides
 
3:46 PM
Whoa. Peter Dinklage to star in a Toxic Avenger! Remake? Yes, please.
 
@illustro Round polygon? Polygon with 15 sides?
 
@RevenantBacon Because that is easier for a non math person to imagine than "make a circle of radius x, and chop the edges so it has 15 equal sides"
 
@illustro Why would it? It's not necessary for it to state that, because knowledge of the common meaning of a given term is what is required. Using radius to describe any shape that isn't a circle of sphere is outside the common definition
@illustro But then you're going outside the common meaning of the term radius. It's no longer a circle, it's a 15-sided figure.
 
@RevenantBacon It really isn't.
 
@illustro Except that is specifically is. The game does not require any advanced math knowledge to be able to be played, so ascribing definitions to things that would only be known by someone who has schooling in advanced math is dubious at best, and more than likely just straight up wrong
 
3:51 PM
This isn't advanced math knowledge, it's a description of how you form the shape
Requiring people to know about angles and side lengths is more advanced than "make a circle and chop the edges off"
Look, I'm not really sure what you are arguing for here. You asserted, that "all areas of effect originate from a point in space" and that radii can only be used for spherical and circular shapes.
An AoE does not have to originate from a singlar point in space (and the rules very explicitly allow for it not doing so)
 
I'm not sure what any of you are debating.
but i came late
 
@NautArch Is the caster within the AoE for the purposes of Arms of Hadar
With "yes" being the most unfun interpretation for playing the game
 
@illustro Yeah. Even if the rules are written weirdly, it's clear that the caster isn't supposed to be included.
At least, it's clear to me.
But i'm a foggy sort.
 
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