TRPG General Chat

Joel Harmon

02:56

@Rubiksmoose An amusing turnabout on this is if Combat really is on the same scale as Social, then try this. Add in skills for Mundane Offense, Mundane Defense, Magical Offense, and Magical Defense. Then consolidate or remove things like hit points, weapon damage die and traits, damage types, attacks per round, attack bonuses, terrain and other situational modifiers, and offensive and defensive spells. Just let the players describe it and the DM wing it.

kviiri

05:24

@JoelHarmon I often use those numbers as an example to GMs who keep roll DCs hidden from their players because "knowing exact numbers encourages metagaming". For some reason knowing an array of weapon stats and combat engine workings doesn't seem to hurt them...

V2Blast

07:25

watched Spider-Man: Far from Home earlier tonight

solid movie :)

trogdor

I liked it but my parents had no idea what was going on

it's a little heavy on the "you watched the other Marvel Movies right?" stuff

kviiri

07:46

When you folks follow a frequently but incrementally updating media, eg. a webcomic with a developing plot, do you prefer to read each page/strip as it is posted or let it accumulate and then "binge"?

I kinda prefer the latter for comics, since my natural mode of enjoying comics is reading an album at a time as I did with Lucky Luke, Tintin etc.

Pierre Cathé

Morning all

kviiri

I guess it also comes a bit down to the difference of whether a single update takes 30 seconds or 30 minutes to read.

@PierreCathé Morning!

BESW

@kviiri It depends a lot on how the media flows.

trogdor

@kviiri I do a little of both

to be honest I do prefer to wait and binge it but sometimes I just almost compulsively check them

Pierre Cathé

Re: webcomics, I have about 6 or 7 that I follow, so that every day I have a bite-sized update I can enjoy during breakfast

BESW

07:53

I can read Schlock Mercenary and Skin Horse daily, but Drive and LeveL need to be binged.

kviiri

@PierreCathé Same for me except it's more like three, total, but previously I've mostly followed ones without much of an overarching plot. Now I'm through with the SSSS archive and I'm considering whether to read it chapter-by-chapter in the future or just follow my usual webcomic routine :)

BESW

Digger was also hard to me to do day-by-day.

kviiri

And then there's comics like Lackadaisy that update so rarely I occasionally wind up binging the whole archive between individual updates...

Totally worth it though.

Derpy

morning

kviiri

@Derpy Morning to you too!

BESW

07:58

@kviiri Ha, yes, leveL is kinda like that.

kviiri

And then there's comics I've read but couldn't really imagine following on a day-to-day basis. Eg. Goblins! is far too accurate in its DnD homage in that its fight scenes can drag on and on and on and on...

(I heard somewhere the author actually plays it as a DnD-like TTRPG and resolves plot events by rolling --- but I never bothered to check for first hand commentary if she actually does that. It would explain some things though!)

@BESW I should maybe collect some more webcomics to follow, many of the ones you've mentioned sound interesting

I've recently stopped following some I found I hadn't actually enjoyed in ages... sometimes it's hard to let go of routines but I've been happy with my decision

BESW

@kviiri A Girl and Her Fed, Atomic Robo and Real Science Adventures, Darths & Droids, Paradigm Shift (extremely irregular), PhD Unknown (probably dead), Up to Four Players...

BESW

08:19

oh, and Dungeons and Doggos, of course!

V2Blast

08:35

@trogdor tbh it's only really dependent on Avengers: Endgame and Spider-Man: Homecoming. It references others but that's just a passing thing.

@kviiri I usually just forget about a thing and maybe come back months/years later when I remember it exists

trogdor

@V2Blast yeah but my point is some people haven't even seen those

V2Blast

haven't followed webcomics closely in ages

trogdor

and it's literally assuming you know,... what happened in those movies

Miniman

@trogdor Do you need to have seen Into the Spider-Verse?

trogdor

no XD

BESW

08:37

Yes. Everyone needs to have seen Into the Spider-Verse.

But not because of some other movie.

Pierre Cathé

@V2Blast Man I was so hyped when I saw Mysterio in the trailer, went to see it on Saturday, and I was not disappointed

trogdor

@BESW true

@BESW also true

kviiri

08:54

The Regiment seems like a really interesting twist on the PbtA formula: it pits the players into the shoes of normal soldiers of a military regiment. I've always wondered how to represent being bound by strict authority works in RPGs, especially in more narrative-driven ones like PbtA games tend to be.

BESW

Doesn't Night Witches do that too?

kviiri

A regiment is not much in modern warfare. It's about a thousand people; for comparison, the US invasion of Iraq in 2003 involved hundreds of thousands of soldiers. And the players are way down in the pecking order: the regiment is led by a colonel, the company the PCs are in by a Captain, and below that is the platoon led by a Lieutenant who might be a PC. So there'll be plenty of "follow these orders"...

@BESW I've never played it, I'm not sure. However, fighter pilot fiction usually has more of that, err, "benevolent renegade" attitude than ground forces

So I'm kinda faced by this conundrum where the PCs are acting mainly on the scale of their platoon/squad/fire-team (around 40/13/4 people respectively) but at that level they have barely any agency of their own because not following higher-level tactics of the regiment makes that scale of units really ineffective in wartime situations.

BESW

Make it about internal/social/emotional agency.

How do they support and encourage each other? How do they deal with following orders they don't agree with? What minor disobedience do they use to retain their sense that they aren't just cogs in a machine?

kviiri

09:09

Hm, that's a good start. Should be noted there's plenty of not-directly-combat stuff in the game as well, although obviously detailed from military life's perspective

BESW

Are you familiar with "The 213 things Skippy is no longer allowed to do in the U.S. Army"? (content warning: language, sexual situations, violence)

kviiri

I have heard of it, but never actually seen the list. /me looks

Number 26 reminds me, there is something of a policy in our army --- probably dating back to the days of ostensible neutrality during the Cold War --- that no names or identities of real countries or nationalities are to be used in exercises. Instead we have "The Yellow" and "The Blue" for hostiles and friendlies, respectively, and NCOs were quite quick to correct anyone who hinted that the enemies are Russians.

...but at the same time, there was a fairly popular joke/saying --- "The enemy doesn't always come from the East. Sometimes they go around and come from the West"

BESW

Skippy was apparently an enlisted man in the US Army's psychological operations department, drawing propaganda posters in postwar Bosnia.

kviiri

Post-war Bosnia probably was a rather sorrowful place to be in :(

BESW

There's a reason I thought of Skippy's List when the subject turned to how soldiers cope with being fungible cogs in a violent machine.

trogdor

09:23

ugh

kviiri

Another idea I had, of a somewhat different direction, is to give the players some "author mode" decisions well beyond the scope of their PCs. Maybe one per session; something large enough to shape the outcome of the conflict they're currently mired in.

trogdor

yeah I mean,... I can hardly understand how anyone volunteers for armed service

and I sure as heck don't understand how anyone ever put up with being drafted and then putting up with all the new rules they had to learn against their will while waiting to basically be sent to die in a war

kviiri

@trogdor I've come to understand it's a bit of a "fast track" to decently paid employment if you don't have better plans in the US. Here, it's mandatory (for men, and for certain values of "mandatory").

trogdor

@kviiri I also hate mandatory

kviiri

@trogdor I coped by getting into computer science and crying once a day.

At least* once a day.

@trogdor I wish everyone did, maybe we'd have less wars that way.

trogdor

09:27

@kviiri I mean,... everyone does when it's applied to them

but not quite everyone seems to care when it's other people

BESW

@kviiri Yeah, on Guam for several generations it was pretty much the only way the Indigenous people could get access to higher education.

@kviiri There's a lot of good scope for author mode games!

trogdor

yeeaaahh

there is also that

kviiri

Perspectives have changed a bit on conscription here: not too long ago if one was a conscientious objector or took the non-armed civilian service option they'd be seen as a hippie, wimp or troublemaker. I went to the army in 2010 and my parents, too, reminded me that I should stick with them to the end because "switching to non-armed looks bad on your CV"

but I don't think most people care really.

BESW

> I entered as a 25M (Multi-Media Illustrator). After a few years I transferred to 37F (Psychological Operations Specialist). I switched mainly on account of the fact that when home on leave, “I do Psychological Warfare” has a better chance of impressing women than “I defend our country by drawing decorative illustrations”. And it got too annoying explaining to people why on earth the Army saw a need for me to be an Airborne Illustrator. (To this day, I’m not exactly sure why.)

(From the "about" part of the Skippy's List website)

kviiri

@BESW I'm really inspired by the Kaiserreich mod to Hearts of Iron IV (as well as the related game Darkest Hour) which presents an alternative history where Germany won the Great War. It's not the setting itself, but they put a lot of attention into describing the cause-and-effect of possible future conflicts and there's a vast variety of options for things to develop.

I think allowing players access to some of that cause-and-effect stuff would allow them to shape the story in an interesting direction for them

BESW

09:37

I kiiinda want to recommend that you read Cozy Town, for an example of top-down authorship play that still values individuals.

kviiri

I did read it over the weekend

It seems interesting but I honestly don't have the correct company for it, nor predict myself having the correct mood for the weeks to come

(otoh chances are I'm not playing anything except my piano before my mood improves, so the "correct mood" point is moot in relation to other games)

BESW

Yeah, I'm suggesting it now as an example of mechanical structures rather than the tone.

Hot RPG Questions

10:02

2

Q: What does "2 HD of creatures" for the spell Banishment mean?

The spell Banishment says it affects: As many as 2 Hit Dice of creatures per caster level can be banished. I'm fairly new to Pathfinder and still haven't quite figured out what a spell means by "# HD of creatures". How do you figure out what a creature's number of HD are? Color Spray and ...

Rubiksmoose

12:23

Morning everyone!

Pierre Cathé

12:36

Good mornfternoon

NautArch

howdy howdy

I'm still really interested in the actual rules language on NPC affecting actions for this question.

Hot RPG Questions

4

Q: Can an Oathbreaker Paladin reform and choose a different Paladin subclass?

If I am currently an Oathbreaker, is it possible for my character to repent for his sins in some way and choose a new a subclass(like redemption) or not?

dnd-5e paladin archetype

Hot RPG Questions

13:01

3

Q: Can a familiar be used to satisfy the 30-foot requirement of the spell Locate Creature?

A wizard has seen through her familiar's eyes an NPC who was within 30 feet of the familiar, but more than 30 feet away from the wizard. Can the spell locate creature, cast by the aforementioned wizard, be used to locate this NPC?

dnd-5e spells familiars divination

Yuuki

@NautArch For the next five weeks or so, every event quest will be available on MHW and you can pick up some fancy duds from certain event quests.

NautArch

@Yuuki Available for free?

oh, nm. MHW :)

Yuuki

All event quests are free and typically they're on a rotating schedule.

NautArch

haha

@Yuuki yeah, gonna have to dip into some of those :)

Yuuki

Have you decided on a weapon or are you going to try to play all of them?

NautArch

13:07

@Yuuki Sticking with the double blades

getting the hang of it

don't totally get the demon->archdemon, but not sure I have a lot of control over that anyway.

Yuuki

IIRC, attacks that you perform in Demon mode charge up a gauge. Once you fill up the gauge, you can go into Archdemon mode.

NautArch

yeah, but I don't think i control when I enter it - it happens automatically?

Yuuki

Oh, it happens when you run out of stamina in Demon mode while the gauge is filled. I think. Or switch out of Demon mode.

Despite the name, Archdemon isn't actually as good as Demon mode but it gives you the improved moveset and a small(er) damage buff.

It basically replaces your normal/un-Demon mode.

Wrigglenite

Hey!

NautArch

ahh, that makes sense. I definitely read it's not as good as Demon. I mostly just make my attacks in demon mode and then back away when i run out of stamina to refill the gauge.

Wrigglenite

13:16

We have a room over here if you're interested

Monster Hunter

All Monster Hunter talk, all the time. Or, just about anythin...

NautArch

@Wrigglenite moved into there :)

Rubiksmoose

13:29

@NautArch Huh, I never even saw that question. I'm still working through the backlog of stuff I missed in the last week or so.

NautArch

@Rubiksmoose It just seems like there's a rule that isn't clear in there, but they're basing their question on an assumption about it. It may be correct, but since it's AL and there's a stricter ruleset, that assumption is problematic.

A non-AL DM can read it however they'd like, but if it's AL I think there's a stricter requirement in how to runit.

Yuuki

I remember in this room someone saying that they're going to a garlic festival. Not sure if it's the Gilroy garlic festival but I hope you're safe anyways.

NautArch

@Yuuki It wasn't gilroy, but we did talk about it.

KorvinStarmast

And there should be few or no vampires about

Rubiksmoose

13:49

@NautArch The one about PCs affecting the NPC's actions/rolls with spells and stuff?

Just as a note of context to people there was just apparently a shooting at the Gilroy garlic festival.

:'(

JohnP

Good mornafternite.

kviiri

14:09

Hello o/

JohnP

I don't think the Dark Sun asker has thought their cunning plan through...

kviiri

@Rubiksmoose I'm saddened by how these evil shooters not only kill innocent people, but also tend to target some of the places most important to the victims' communities: festivals, schools, places of worship... it's not an ordinary crime, it's engineered to be thoroughly wicked and vicious.

NautArch

@Rubiksmoose Yeah, that one. THe actual rule isn't cited, but in comments OP says that was their interpretation of the vague direction.

Pierre Cathé

@JohnP Good mornoonftervning

Rubiksmoose

@NautArch Gotcha. Well one thing about AL to my understanding is that it still defaults to leaning on the DM to adjudicate things that are unclear. So, it seems like a reasonable ruling extrapolating from the given text right? I think we tend to overstate here how strict AL actually has to be.

@kviiri Yeah, I don't even have words. And even if I did, they certainly wouldn't be family-friendly ones.

goodguy5

14:22

@Rubiksmoose but anything that a player wants to be sure to use in AL has to be easily ruled the same way across any DM.

You don't want your entire concept built around one ruling, only to have it cast aside by an unfavorable DM

Though, I DID have an AL DM allow an npc bad guy cast two spiritual weapons at the same time and almost kill the party.

Rubiksmoose

@goodguy5 Is that necessarily true though? I mean that seems to be one overall goal of AL, but even in the AL rules DMs still have the ability to rule on any ambiguities. And of course how one interprets and rules on ambiguities is not going to be consistent from DM to DM.

NautArch

@Rubiksmoose Maybe? But the actual rule text is never quoted to confirm.

Rubiksmoose

@NautArch Isn't it cited at the end? Or am I missing something or misunderstanding?

> Attacking Halaster

This is ill advised. All attacks, spells or other effects directed at Halaster here in his nine-pin alley fall away from the wizard harmlessly. Halaster will warn the characters ONCE, asking them to please stop and be civilized. If any of them continue to enact hostilities, cast spells of any kind at his person or his servants, the mad mage disappears in [an] explosion of magical force doing 150 hit points of force damage to all characters in the room.

kviiri

DnD is the game where you can do anything but you might be killed in an explosion because you weren't doing what was wanted

2

goodguy5

what level are the characters?

because 150 damage isn't enough to kill anyone at a certain point..... except all of the NPCs

Pierre Cathé

14:30

@kviiri *DnD:AL

Someone_Evil

I think it was Epic level module so 17-20?

goodguy5

oh yea. The PCs should all survive, though some casters might be unconscious

Rubiksmoose

@Someone_Evil All the example characters in the example in the question were all level 20, so I think you are correct.

kviiri

@PierreCathé I would revise my statement, but by my admittedly limited experience my statement isn't wrong for other published campaigns either.

Mark Wells

If Halaster does this kind of thing a lot, then one assumes his servants are all at least 150 hp also.

kviiri

14:32

Or homebrew, for that matter. Except maybe the explosion part. My GMs aren't always on the same wavelength with me but they're not going to kill my PC for random stuff unless a book tells them to.

Pierre Cathé

@kviiri From the two published campaigns I've seen you're right, but doesn't the GM have way less freedom in AL ? Because I certainly remove anything I don't like from a campaign I'm running

Yuuki

@goodguy5 Didn't we figure out that a 20th-level wizard might have 100 HP or something?

Pierre Cathé

The GM's first tool should be their brain, not the setting notes

kviiri

@PierreCathé I think so, yes

Rubiksmoose

@PierreCathé You definitely have less freedom in AL and generally would not be able to remove any significant part of the campaign according to the rules.

Pierre Cathé

14:34

When I was a player, I noticed our table had a much better time when we stopped playing AL and our GM also had more fun

Rubiksmoose

(though it is worth noting that all of these things are self-policed and self-reported anyways)

NautArch

@Rubiksmoose oh! I must have missed that.

yeah, that seems like they're right.

Pierre Cathé

@Rubiksmoose Good point

Yuuki

@PierreCathé From my view, the point of AL is portability. If you expect to be playing with the same group week in and week out, I don't think you're the target audience for AL.

goodguy5

@Yuuki yes, but 150 damage won't KILL him

Pierre Cathé

14:36

@Yuuki That's fair, and even though I've moved away from it in time, AL is what allowed me to get into that group in the first place

But once you get established, the overly strict rules are really limiting

KorvinStarmast

I wonder if Trish still visits here. I recall Trish being very knowledgeable about The Dark Eye. We've got a question on that game system that I suspect Trish could answer in a flash.

kviiri

I personally prefer clear rules and mechanics as a way to emphasize gameplay concepts, but I can understand why AL ruleset can feel too limiting in that aspect.

Rubiksmoose

@kviiri I'm not sure that AL makes things more clear (except in a couple notable instances where it closes known exploits (eg simulacrum+wish) for reasons of preserving the AL economy for example) it really just adds more rules and then a stipulation that the DM should follow RAW when it is clear and available.

KorvinStarmast

@goodguy5 Ah, to OSR is alive and well in AL, eh? XD

Pierre Cathé

@kviiri Yeah I get that, I guess it's more the GM speaking rather than the player. I'm not much of a writer, but I like sprinkling in my own scenes, or slightly changing a villain's plan

goodguy5

14:41

@KorvinStarmast osr?

Pierre Cathé

Going off-the-books, adding/removing (forcibly) NPCs

Rubiksmoose

@PierreCathé I thought forcibly removing NPCs was the players' job ;)

Pierre Cathé

@Rubiksmoose Or the villain's ? (I'm running Strahd)

KorvinStarmast

@goodguy5 Old School Revival or Old School Renaissance. (A reaction to what WoTC did with D&D)

goodguy5

ah

Yuuki

14:44

@goodguy5 Old School Runescape?

goodguy5

Otter Slide Recording?

Ryan

bought my first unpainted miniature and want to paint it. luckily it was a 2 pack so ill start with the pose I don't like as much. Anyone have tips for painting miniatures? A lot of the stuff on youtube seems to be very advanced

MikeQ

@Ryan Maintain small brushes. Start with a primer layer, let it dry. Then paint one color at a time, allowing dry time in between each new color.

Ryan

@MikeQ any suggestions on an affordable starting brush set and which paints to use? not trying to break my budget nor do I have a big place or garage to do this in

really just want my one piece painted and then the tools will likely sit unused

Rubiksmoose

@goodguy5 This sounds very much like something @kviiri would be doing :)

@Ryan Nice! I'm not sure how much it helps but we have an ancient question here about that.

16

Q: What's the cheapest, good way for someone to try getting into painting miniatures?

I want to try painting miniatures (plastic ones ala Castle Ravenloft and the World of Warcraft board game), but I don't want to spend a lot of money on supplies only to find out that I stink, but I also don't want to get low quality paint only to find out that I enjoy painting them. I've seen ma...

miniatures

(or kind of about that)

Yuuki

14:50

@Rubiksmoose I mean, if you enjoy it then just keep painting and practicing until you run out of your low-quality paints and then buy higher-quality paints.

It's not like the first paints you buy are soulbound to you and you can't switch without making a deal with the devil.

MikeQ

@Ryan Small-point brushes. Use a soft tip for covering odd surfaces, and firm tip for details. Also a wider+softer brush for applying primer. I'd suggest oil-based paints for minis because acrylic can rub away over time, especially when humans touch them.

KorvinStarmast

@Ryan maximillian used to have some great advice on that, so good that I saved some of his chats to me on painting tips. I'll try to find them, I think I saved them on another PC.

@MikeQ Back when I was painting minis a lot, I got a can of flat spray clear coat that I'd spray over my dried/finished figs. That did a bit to mitigate the paint wear off problem.

But I tended to use Testor oils, not acrylic paint anyway.

Ryan

@Rubiksmoose thanks for that.

@KorvinStarmast if I could oil paint I wouldn't be gaming probably, would just be painting all day. Sadly I don't have the space or ventilation for oil painting

Rubiksmoose

@Ryan No problem! I can't vouch for any of the advice there being relevant still today as I've never so much as tried to paint a single fig, but hopefully it will be a good starting point. There seemed to be some advice there that was probably pretty timeless at the very least.

Ryan

I just learned someone at the local game shop by me prints 3d miniatures if you give them the heroforge file. That's pretty exciting too

Pierre Cathé

15:01

@Ryan You could also check if there's a local fab lab where you could do it yourself, there's plenty of good 3d models on the internet and fab labs are usually pretty cheap

Ryan

ooh just found a guy on youtube with a 4 part painting the exact miniature i bought

kviiri

@Rubiksmoose you know me so well ;)

@Rubiksmoose Aye.

@Ryan I'd recommend not doing that --- at least with the piano I've noticed alternating between hobbies is more efficient than practicing the same thing all the time :)

It's amazing how you can play some piece ten times one evening, then sleep over it, and play it once in the morning and it goes noticeably better than the ten times last night,

Ryan

@kviiri true but I have other hobbies as well so there's already balance there

kviiri

15:20

gotcha

JohnP

@kviiri That is a common misconception across many things where repetition is key element. Comes from the "to become an expert do it 10,000 hours" or whatever. Well, if your 10,000 hours is crap, then the final result is expert crap.

NautArch

@JohnP Practice doesn't make perfect. Perfect practice makes perfect.

JohnP

@NautArch I believe I implied that, sir.

Pierre Cathé

@NautArch But how do you practice practicing so that your practicing is perfect ?

NautArch

@PierreCathé very slowly :)

JohnP

15:29

@PierreCathé You find an instructor and practice small blocks until you can put the whole together.

MikeQ

@PierreCathé Law of large numbers. The more you practice, the more likely you'll practice properly.

JohnP

@MikeQ That is not necessarily a given.

Pierre Cathé

@MikeQ sounds like the exact opposite argument could be made

JohnP

It is a likelihood, but not an assurance.

NautArch

@JohnP always a good time for a vince lombardi quote

JohnP

15:30

@NautArch VL was an overrated hack.

NautArch

@JohnP hot take!

JohnP

@NautArch dang. :p

Ryan

practice doesnt need to be perfect but you have to reflect on things

thats the key to any practice

JohnP

@Ryan Right. Mirrors.

Rubiksmoose

Can I get eyes on this question? I don't really know enough to see why it was closed or if that has been resolved. But if it can be reopened, I'm sure some votes to that effect would be appreciated.

1

Q: What are the planar effects and rules that would apply to a creature from one Prime visiting another Prime?

Planar travel results in plenty of odd situations. And natives of said planes don't always appreciate the visit. Outsiders can be banished back to their plane of origin, and if memory serves, visitors to other planes that they address not native to in general can be banished. While this quest...

dnd-3.5e planes

NautArch

15:53

@Rubiksmoose Working on a counter to the magical turret question.

I think it kind of is a spell.

Rubiksmoose

@NautArch oh yeah? I'm not seeing anything that would come close to suggesting that, but maybe I'm missing something?

The big thing is that it's not listed in a spell list or called a spell anywhere, so I'm not honestly sure how it could be considered a spell.

NautArch

@Rubiksmoose Going to take me some time to put it together, but basically, I think the intro text on spellcasting implies they are spells, and then you can use spell slots to create them.

Xirema

The closest is the observation that the turret can consume a Spell Slot to summon.

NautArch

"You have studied the workings of magic, how to
channel it through objects, and how to awaken it
within them. As a result, you have gained a
limited ability to cast spells. To observers, you
don’t appear to be casting spells in a
conventional way; you look as if you’re
producing wonders through various items."

Rubiksmoose

@NautArch Right, so then what spell are they casting?

Though that is a very interesting take on it, I'm not sure I'm finding it convincing yet.

Yuuki

15:59

@NautArch Flavor-wise, how is that different from having an arcane focus or spell components?

Xirema

Summon Arcane Turret, I guess.

But without a formal Spell block, I don't think I could call that a spell either.

@Yuuki Artificers have Material Spell Components added to any spell that does not normally have Material Components, for one.

Rubiksmoose

@Xirema Which is prett damning IMO. They already showed that they were willing to create new spells just for the artificer by creating arcane weapon (and giving us a spell block for it) so I'd think if they had wanted a summon turret spell they would have done the same thing.

KorvinStarmast

@Ryan All I ever used was a small table fan for ventillation. My brain is mostly intact. :)

JohnP

@Rubiksmoose I think it's way too broad. There are 8 pages of traits alone contained in an entire sourcebook on the planes.

Rubiksmoose

@JohnP That makes sense.

NautArch

16:17

@Rubiksmoose yeah, i've got to put it together. But the premise is "up to DM" because of UA not being clear. BUt there seems to intention that this is spellcasting.

not sure i've got the time to do it, though

Rubiksmoose

@NautArch Huh. Well I'd be interested to see it at least. I'm going to have to say that I strongly disagree that spellcasting was the intention here by my personal reading. Spellcasting has always been extrememly clearly marked. It says "cast" and it has a spell name and a spell block. This is pretty much just like divine smite in my book.

KorvinStarmast

@NautArch It is certainly a "magical effect."

NautArch

@Rubiksmoose if divine smite had an ongoing effect. But yeah, i'm not sure i'm fully convinced. But I do think it's generally unclear

Trying to think of a comparison where you can 'summon' something as a spellclass ability.

KorvinStarmast

@NautArch This DM finds the Artificer UA to be sloppily done and in need of a lot of polish/balance. (As with anything Eberron, balance does not seem to matter ...)

@NautArch shadow sorcerer's hound, perhaps?

NautArch

@KorvinStarmast Yass! Okay, not writing an answer :) I think it's an equivalent (or close enough)

Rubiksmoose

16:23

I do think that regardless of intent, the way they wrote it means that it is not a spell. At the very least they would have had to include the word "cast" or "spell" somewhere in there

NautArch

@Rubiksmoose 'summon' can be similar, but likely not similar enough

KorvinStarmast

@Rubiksmoose My problem is that it has a duration. It isn't a permanently crafted/created item. (Unlike the items that the artificer can craft). That's where the "you can dispel it" gets a little traction

Xirema

There's a few things I definitely want to see tweaked with the Artificer.

Rubiksmoose

@KorvinStarmast Yeahm if this were a spell, I think it would be an interesting discussion if it could be dispelled or not.

Xirema

Like the fact that the Alchemist gets exactly one healing spell that benefits from their Alchemical Mastery feature.

Rubiksmoose

16:26

@Xirema Which is really dumb

(and almost certainly an oversight?)

NautArch

@KorvinStarmast and possibly that you can expend a spell slot to summon it

it feels very much like a spiritual weapon

Rubiksmoose

SO your argument basically is that it is a spell, but they forgot to give it a name or use spell language for it then?

I mean I could definitely see them making this a spell. It wouldn't even be that hard to translate the given class feature description into a spell block and change the class feature to just say "You can spend an action to cast summon turret."

NautArch

@Rubiksmoose kindasorta. Right now, it looks like a spell and acts like a spell. But it isn't a spell. So it passes the duck test, but not the literal test.

but maybe it's a pure UA thing. They wanted to try it without it acting like a spell.

Rubiksmoose

@NautArch Honest question: does it smell and act more like a spell than Divine Smite does? Like there are plenty of things in the game already that seem a lot like spells but aren't for various reasons.

@NautArch Do you think you'd be thinking the same thing if this was published as-is?

NautArch

@Rubiksmoose Only because divine smite is instantaneous. THat's my big differential there.

@Rubiksmoose probably not :)

Rubiksmoose

16:34

@NautArch But the duration is only really important if we are talking about dispel magic right? DS seems like many other spells including the literal smite spells and the only way it is different from those is that the game doesn't call DS a spell, give it a block, and give it a spell name.

NautArch

@Rubiksmoose Duration is important for me in terms of summoning/conjuring/ongoing effect vs a one-time instantenous usage.

Rubiksmoose

@NautArch Hm I guess I just don't really understand how that makes something seem more or less like a spell is all.

Xirema

So I know for a fact that many times in the game, they'll include a specification like "if Dispel Magic is cast on this entity [and the spellcaster passes a DC XX Spellcasting Ability Check], it vanishes".

I see that now and then for Campaign modules, where existing magical effects that were not explicitly created by Spells will nonetheless be Dispellable.

JohnP

@NautArch

Xirema

So I could definitely see something like this be added for the Turret, if the intent were to allow them to be dispelled.

JohnP

16:38

> Can you use dispel magic on the creations of a spell like animate dead or affect those creations with antimagic field?

NautArch

@Rubiksmoose mostly because it's conjuring/summoning something. The Shadow Hound is one effect that counters my logic.

Xirema

The bigger issue, IMO, is the fact that Dispel Magic is written to only affect spells, which might have seemed like the more elegant design decision at the time, but seems to endlessly result in these "but is that a spell???" questions.

Rubiksmoose

@NautArch Gotcha. I think I see what you were saying with that now?

JohnP

Hang on. The answer is too long to post in one.

Rubiksmoose

@Xirema So much this. It's a pretty unfortunate mismatch between name and function that comes with requiring a good dose of nuanced rule knowledge to make it all work.

JohnP

16:41

> Whenever you wonder whether a spell’s effects can be dispelled or suspended, you need to answer one question: is the spell’s duration instantaneous? If the answer is yes, there is nothing to dispel or suspend.

> Here’s why: the effects of an instantaneous spell are brought into being by magic, but the effects aren’t sustained by magic (see PH, 203). The magic flares for a split second and then vanishes. For example, the instantaneous spell animate dead harnesses magical energy to turn a corpse or a pile of bones into an undead creature.

> That necromantic magic is present for an instant and is then gone. The resulting undead now exists without the magic’s help. Casting dispel magic on the creature can’t end its mockery of life, and the undead can wander into an antimagic field with no adverse effect.

So if the turret is a spell, does the spell sustain it? Or does it just create it and go away?

Xirema

The bigger issue though, for me personally, is the observation that there's very few ways to "one-shot" a companion, short of sheer damage. And whatever else the turrets are supposed to be, they do function as "companions" for the Artificer. Like the Alchemical Homunculus, like the Artificial Mind, like the Iron Defender.

NautArch

@Xirema or a familiar.

Rubiksmoose

@JohnP It would completely depend on how the spell was written honestly and since it isn't written as a spell we can't really even answer that.

(and even with some spells it is frustratingly ambiguous)

JohnP

> At 3rd level, you learn how to create a magical
turret. With your smith’s tools in hand, you can
take an action to magically summon a Medium
turret in an unoccupied space on a horizontal
surface within 5 feet of you.

Xirema

@NautArch Familiars can't be Dispelled either, despite being conjured from a spell. =P

JohnP

16:45

So either spell or not, you take an action to summon. Does dispel magic banish a summoned elemental?

Rubiksmoose

@JohnP (IIRC) yes, because the summon elemental spells have a duration. Though there are also multiple spells that can summon elementals.

@JohnP Right, like I said, it isn't written like most spells are. Specifically, it doesn't have a place where it explicitly defines its duration.

JohnP

Btw, the dispel magic ruling is from the March 2016 Rules Answers and the blurb on the summoning is from the UA Artificer DDB

NautArch

@Xirema yeah, that's along the lines of @JohnP's Animate Dead link

Xirema

@JohnP That's somewhat complicated.

NautArch

ALthough the turret has a duration as well, right?

JohnP

16:48

@Rubiksmoose Yes it does

> It disappears if it is reduced to 0 hit
points or after 10 minutes. You can dismiss it
early as an action.

NautArch

which makes it less like animate dead/findfamiliar

JohnP

But, there is nothing about needing to concentrate to keep it around. I think that would be the pivotal point.

NautArch

@JohnP Kinda/sorta. YOu can dispel a spiritual weapon, which isn't concentration.

I'm inclined to think that the current language has it non-dispellable. But I'd also be okay with allowing it to be dispelled.

Rubiksmoose

Just as an FYI the artificer is available on DNDB for easier copypasta.

Xirema

@Xirema Note that I'm actually thinking about revising my answer to that question (which disagrees with the top-voted answer) because in the time since I wrote it, I actually think one of two things must be true about Conjure Elemental (one of which is not considered by the answer I wrote.

1. Dispel Magic on a Conjured Elemental that has broken free of control causes the elemental to vanish, because it causes the spell to end, and when the spell ends, the elemental vanishes.
2. Dispel Magic on a Conjured Elemental that has broken free of control causes the elemental to become permanent, because it causes the spell to end, and the only remaining part of the spell is the part that causes the elemental to vanish; if that gets dispelled, then that's the only part that doesn't take effect, therefore the Elemental sticks around.

Mark Wells

16:53

@JohnP The issue is whether there has to be an ongoing spell to keep it around. The effect of dispel magic is to end spells. Conjure elemental says that the elemental disappears "when the spell ends".

JohnP

@MarkWells That was a bad example on my part.

@NautArch - Here's one for you. Is the first turret not dispellable while a second turret summoned by using a spell slot is? :p

NautArch

@JohnP nah, same general rules.

Mark Wells

@Xirema I think you're right with #2. The spell's duration has already ended.

Monster Hunter

Transcript for