TRPG General Chat

KorvinStarmast

01:00

Nite

Mike Q

@KorvinStarmast ahoy cap'n

KorvinStarmast

Hail, Mike, how are thee?

I am itching to get back to Nistua's ToA campaign, since we have a chance to mix it up with pirates. There's something good about pirates .... even if they are the bad guys.

Mike Q

I seem to have a pulse. Still stalling my campaign due to writer's block. Otherwise not much.

KorvinStarmast

That happens ... welcome to that club. :)

Mike Q

@KorvinStarmast I'm actually writing / running a pirate campaign, so I've had pirates on the mind for a while

KorvinStarmast

01:04

This is inherently good.

As cool as ninjas are, I tend to side with pirates in that great meme debate. (Being a nautical sort, it's a built in bias I suppose)

The Missus Summons! I must report, as ...

d20

Dice Service

13

KorvinStarmast

The DC for that save was 15

cheers, me hearty!

Mike Q

good luck

Mike Q

02:57

@nitsua60 Good morning/afternoon/evening

nitsua60

@MikeQ fine $TIMEOFDAY to you.

(Where I am it's $GETHOMEFROMFLGSGAME and $BEDTIMESNACK times, simultaneously.)

Mike Q

So I hear you're running the Tomb of Annihilation for the other chatizens. How is that going? Are you running it straight from the book, or are you doing any personal touches?

nitsua60

I am/was. We went pretty well for five sessions through March and April, then May hit and it's been four or five (or more?) weeks since we've been able to convene. And it'll be at least two more, on my end =\

@MikeQ Basically by the book. I'm running it as an AL game, so not much in the way of changes. I did interleave some bits of one of the modules in to the beginning, too.

And I move around/reconstitute NPCs. I feel like they give way too many.

(I don't need a whole NPC to internalize whose entire function is to introduce me to another NPC who actually has the info we were looking for in the first place!)

@MikeQ are you running/have you run it? Played?

Mike Q

Haven't experienced it myself, but I have skimmed over the maps to learn about (and get inspiration for) dungeon design

trogdor

03:13

@nitsua60 just so you know, Korvin asked everyone in the Back Room if they are ok to go this week

nitsua60

@trogdor Ah, thanks.

trogdor

no rush on answering, just a heads up in case you didn't see the ping yet

nitsua60

@trogdor Thank you--I hadn't.

trogdor

ok

Mike Q

@nitsua60 Do you prefer running dungeon grinds like ToA, or more story/adventure heavy games?

nitsua60

03:19

@MikeQ personally, story/collaborative-narration/exploration-ey games. For AL, something a little more linear with some nice set-pieces is just fine.

Mike Q

Me too. What's your writing process when coming up with material - just go with your gut, or collaborate for feedback?

nitsua60

Mostly soliciting enough ideas/requests from players until it congeals and I feel like I've got something (a) I can run with and (b) I'd have never thought of myself =)

I've got to head out--it's pretty late my-time. Ping me, though--I'm always up for chatting design/writing =)

Mike Q

03:38

Adios

SmokeDetector

05:23

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Bad keyword in body, pattern-matching website in body: why wordpress is important for bussiness website? by Tricity Infotech on rpg.SE (@doppelgreener)

BESW

@SmokeDetector That's... unusual.

trogdor

06:37

lol

SmokeDetector

07:08

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Manually reported answer: Is there a way to ask in game (i.e. in a non-meta way) what a character's class is? by user44788 on rpg.SE (@doppelgreener)

BESW

Okay, our spam is just getting weird now.

doppelgreener

That's the second time we've had something like that.

Mike Q

At least the tales of the spellcasting therapist were kinda on topic

BESW

And that last one wasn't actually trying to get us to click on anything or contact a shady guru!

Mike Q

I should make Doctor Zakuza an NPC in my game

none of my players will get the joke but that's ok

BESW

07:26

Some of my best campaigns have been based on references I know my players won't get--I wouldn't use the reference otherwise because it'd be too distracting.

Helwar

@BESW It gets very weird when they catch the reference and tell you :P

Mike Q

So... brainstorm time:
The PCs have just been introduced to the villain. He robbed their ship and killed a bunch of their NPC crew. They learn of some former adventurers who also hate this villain, and go to the place where they would be found. What sort of challenge should be involved in getting the new crew members?

BESW

Find; engage; persuade; extract.

trogdor

@BESW it's always been weird though right? this is just an escalation

BESW

First you gotta find the people. Then you talk with them and find out what their deal is. Then you do something to convince them to help you. Then you all get out.

@trogdor Yeah, like that one wasn't even an ad.

trogdor

07:37

lol

Mike Q

@BESW Right, so how do I present this as a challenge for the players?

BESW

Are you using "challenge" as a mechanical term, like in 4e or Fate?

Mike Q

It doesn't have to be difficult per se, or roll-heavy. Just something more complex than:
PC: "Join us"
NPC: "Ok"

BESW

Okay, so: finding them. Clearly the villain has resources, so his enemies aren't easy to track down or he'd have had them eliminated.

Mike Q

"challenge" in an abstract term. Could be anything from helping them fight a monster to helping them write love letters

BESW

07:42

The PCs need to find 'em: rumors, scrying, mutual contacts in the underworld...

trogdor

well also, when they find this person, maybe they find that the NPC is in a bind they actually have to help with

one they can't just walk away from just like that

BESW

Then you engage with them: arrange a meeting, have a little roleplay scene in a shady bar or something. That scene is where you find the NPCs' motives or complications that will help you persuade them.

Mike Q

Yeah I'm split between:
A. help the NPCs with $TASK as a condition for them joining the PCs
B. find the NPCs because they are in hiding for some reason
C. social encounter and just wing it?

ok, so B then C?

BESW

Persuasion might involve helping the NPCs out of a current situation, and/or doing something to prove their sincerity/trustworthiness.

Once you've gotten the NPCs as allies, you have to extract them. You can skip this, but it might be part of the "NPCs are currently in a bind" scenario, or part of your new plot involves nobody knowing where you and the NPCs are going, or there could be something else going on like a civil war that you have to get through.

Mike Q

07:58

Ok, how about this premise... PCs get into town, start asking questions. Turns out the NPCs are in hiding because they're trying to hunt down some enemy of theirs (maybe who's connected to the villain?). That's the bind. They'll team up with the PCs if they help take out these enemies. So it's an easy social/investigation challenge, then a combat challenge.... Does that seem ok or is it too artificial?

BESW

Seems reasonable, but how did the PCs know to go to that town?

Mike Q

Follow a rumor, maybe? They have magic that helps them find stuff.

Ideally I'd like to avoid artificial, coincidence-driven plots

Or maybe... the NPCs are in the town's jail for some reason, and the PCs have to get them out somehow? This could mean persuading the people in charge, or persuading/tricking the guards, or just breaking in for a stealth mission.

It's less sloppy and repetitive than handing the players another prepared fight.

BESW

How about something the NPCs are obligated to do, instead?

"We'll help you after we do this thing we agreed to do, would you like to help?"

Mike Q

Yes that is way simpler than my regular convoluted ideas

BESW

Where "thing" is.... whatever would be most flattering to the party's chosen secondary abilities.

You know, most characters have something they're good at which they never get to do. Take an opportunity to let 'em shine.

It's also an opportunity for roleplaying with their new friends, to establish how the team-up dynamic will play out.

Mike Q

08:30

@BESW @BESW Alright, I'll brainstorm for plausible scenarios. Thanks as always for the wisdom.

BESW

I hope it's helpful!

Tiggerous

08:57

Tfw you spend a while writing a detailed and considered answer from a novel approach that none of the other answers have considered, to a relatively popular questions that's already a day or so old, but then post it at the time when SE is least active and so no one will ever see it.

BESW

Good answers to popular questions gather points over years.

Tiggerous

late but good answers to fleetingly popular questions on the other hand...

BESW

[shrug] If there's one thing I've learned about vote-chasing, it's that I'll always get surprised by what sticks to the wall and what doesn't.

Tiggerous

That's fair.

It's very hard to guess what'll be popular and what won't.

kviiri

09:17

This used to be my top-voted answer (and still is, tied with another) despite being a rather mediocre one IMO.

Or well, it does answer the question well, I just don't think it's worth a medal or anything.

BESW

Yeah, one of my highest-voted answers is really quite bad.

kviiri

It's just a more advanced rule lookup, where the rules are spread a bit instead of being in a single obvious place.

For contrast, it's now tied with this one which I personally think is worth a lot more.

BESW

(To be fair, the question's kinda trash too, it just hit a nexus of controversial playstyle elements.)

Tiggerous

Certainly popular answers are rarely those that I've needed to spend most time on.

BESW

But good answers collect rep over the long run, even if they don't get much attention at the start, while answers on initially popular questions often drop into perma-obscurity quite quickly.

I don't make a lot of posts anymore, but my rep gain is still pretty consistent:

You can easily see when I'm actively contributing content, but the rest of the time it's still a steady trickle of rep from the answers people continue to find useful.

Tiggerous

09:24

I've written far fewer answers than either of you - I wrote my first only just over a month ago. But already I've noticed that answers to questions saying "No, you can't do that thing that you'd like to do and already suspect you can't do" seem to score disproportionately highly in relation to effort required.

kviiri

Usually one can also see when a question goes into Hot Network. <cash register sounds>

@BESW Are those negative days bounties or what?

(the big ones in particular)

BESW

@Tiggerous I get a lot of mileage out of "Don't be a jerk, it's a game with friends."

Lessee...

kviiri

@BESW It's like stealing a lot of candy from a child over a very long period of time

Tiggerous

@BESW How do you find that chart (for yourself)?

BESW

User removed; user removed; user removed; bounty; bounty; user removed; user removed.

@Tiggerous Right here

Tiggerous

09:28

@BESW Thanks - not sure how I'd missed that.

BESW

Your first two months are a lot more productive than mine.

kviiri

I like how I can see my thesis writing holiday in my graph :-)

Tiggerous

Hmm, well my actual first two months aren't - they're my first two months once I started actively contributing. I sat on around 80 rep for a couple of months after I posted my first question.

BESW

Same. So even if we look at when my contributions first took a significant upswing...

And I got ridiculously lucky; the fifth question I ever answered has been in my top five best-voted questions ever since.

kviiri

09:43

I started raking in lots of reputation in January 2017, when I was familiar enough with 5e rules to start answering questions about it.

BESW

Yeah, when I popped into RPG.SE I was immersed in 4e which was the D&D-de-jour at the time.

kviiri

I think I had 4k or something in January 2017, now I'm at 21k. I haven't bothered to answer many 5e questions lately.

Tiggerous

I'm not familiar enough with any system other than 5e. Luckily 5e is where the vast majority of the questions come from. I've answered only one question without the 5e tag so far.

kviiri

I mostly answered 4e and system agnostic questions before 5e, mostly because the other systems I know well are rather niche here.

They tend to be not only less popular, but also far less cryptic so there's less need to make questions :)

And well, I guess there's also the "beginner RPG" bias that people who play non-DnD games tend to be more experienced players in general

trogdor

I'm just waiting for a time when D&D doesn't have quite such a large portion of the number of questions on this site

at that time,..... I will probably continue to be inactive,... but be way more smug about it

Tiggerous

09:58

@kviiri That's an interesting point :)

kviiri

@trogdor Yea :|

trogdor

mmmmhmmm

kviiri

@Tiggerous Yup, there's a lot of "biases" (apart from just popularity) boosting DnD's portion of the site traffic

Also, I'm at 24k, not 21k. When have I scored this much rep and not notice...

kviiri

10:24

Ugh, I haven't been really practicing my piano for a year and a half. Now I borrowed it to a friend and I have a strong urge to play again.

Can I exchange my stupid human brain for something smarter, eg a parrot or a dog brain, somewhere?

trogdor

lol

I suggest a lizard

Derpy

borrowed. Piano.

trogdor

lizards have the best brains, no bias here, I promise

Derpy

For reason, this remind me that old Laurel & Hardy short featuring them trying to deliver a piano

kviiri

He lives only a few blocks away so he could just carry it by foot :-)

(jk, this was actually for that wedding last weekend)

trogdor

10:28

lol

I was going to ask if it was a toy piano

Derpy

^ to be fair, the problem was the last part of the delivery.

Aka The Evil Stairs of Doom

kviiri

It's a Roland electric piano, not a toy but far easier to transport than an acoustic one

trogdor

fair enough

kviiri

Pat & Mat - Klavír

►

trogdor

but "by hand" implies by himself and with no instruments

Derpy

10:32

@trogdor and this instead reminds me building a piano in Animal Crossing Pocket Camp only to discover it was a TOY piano.

trogdor

lol

kviiri

I wonder if using the drive of one's car as a lifting engine was common practice in Cold War era Czechoslovakia

BESW

Sounds very Con Nuestros Propios Esfuerzos.

Which, I understand, was just a more official embracing of an ethos common in Cold War countries with similar conditions.

Which is a round-about way of saying "I wouldn't be surprised."

kviiri

My limited knowledge of Latin languages and the context suggests that's some Cuban self-sufficiency philosophy. Correct?

BESW

Aye. When Cuba was subjected to extreme embargoes, they lost most of their ability to replace broken or used-up resources.

So the Cuban government published Con Nuestros Propios Esfuerzos, "With Our Own Efforts," which was a thick, cheaply produced manual about how to repair, repurpose, re-use, and generally innovate with what you've got.

It was accompanied by an intense propaganda campaign pushing resolviendo, a national attitude of pride in creative innovation put to the task of making the country continue to work despite significant loss of resources.

kviiri

10:44

aye

BESW

Resolviendo created a whole new cultural perspective on the purpose and utility of objects: machines were no longer seen as coherent units of function a particular purpose, but rather a collection of useful parts current arranged for a particular purpose.

kviiri

Cuba, the Hacker State

BESW

So when your washing machine's tub rusted out, you'd take the engine and mount it on a bicycle to make a motorbike, with a plastic bottle for a gas tank.

kviiri

I like such resourcefulness

BESW

Con Nuestros Propios Esfuerzos also describes farming techniques for people who'd never farmed before but now had to, cooking recipes to use the kinds of food that had been previously unfamiliar but were now often all you had... it's an amazing book, and an amazing piece of social engineering.

kviiri

10:48

I only quite recently learned of the issues Cuba had before the communist revolution there. I'm not a fan of Castro, but... well, I guess it's another example of how these revolutionary movements thrive in unfair states. Being fair to the public keeps the peace better than trying to control it all the time.

BESW

Yeah.

And of course, resolviendo has undeniable parallels with the Soviet narrative that the contemporary privation of the individual is the harbinger of the inevitable future glory of the state.

It's a lot less admirable, as a policy, in that light.

But the innovation of the people is still really cool.

kviiri

Yup :(

trogdor

yeah a lot of social structures have similar issues

BESW

I think it's important to be able to appreciate good things and condemn bad things even if they're directly associated with each other--like celebrating the accomplishments of individuals while deploring the choices of the government which drove them to require such accomplishments.

trogdor

yeah I don't disagree

having a more complicated view of something than "it's bad" or "it's good" is generally a good practice

2

I mean, don't take that too far but you know

Helwar

10:59

People is not good or bad all the time. Here in spain there's a lot of talk about how bad was Franco... and yeah, he was a dictator. Still, he erected hospitals, started the public health care, and invested heavily in universities.

BESW

[grin] There's a passage in Shangri-La where someone explains that their culture is based on moderation in ALL things... which means sometimes they're moderately fanatical.

Joel Harmon

Moderation in all things, even moderation, no?

trogdor

lol

BESW

@Helwar So long as we take care not to start thinking that the good things justify or forgive the bad. That's an easy trap to fall into.

Helwar

@BESW exactly

kviiri

11:02

@Helwar Dictators tend to have that thing going where they get things done, yep. I think it's a part of the deal... no one would support a dictator who couldn't get something good done along with the bad. :)

BESW

...and in the case of dictators, there's a curious phenomenon... [rummages for link]

kviiri

Then again, "good" and "bad" are VERY subjective.

BESW

This Twitter thread talks (with historical examples!) about how often the "brutal but effective" discussion sidelines the "but what actually happened" discussion, letting pure fantasy slip into debates as actual fact because the focus is on the morality of the supposed events.

kviiri

Yeah, those myths are more than a bit weird.

BESW

This kind of nuance is also why D&D-style alignment paradigms make my teeth itch.

kviiri

11:06

One of the worst ones is that "ethics aside, Hitler was a pretty good leader". The kind of a good leader that gets his country divided between enemies by starting practically unwinnable wars...

BESW

It's the Clocktaur paladin rant, too.

kviiri

When I first learned of the US political system (inspired by a Wikipedia spree after intensively playing Liberal Crime Squad) I was super surprised that the state gets anything done at all

BESW

....We tend to be surprised when that happens too.

kviiri

Although I guess there's a bit of a fallacy there, that the US doesn't equate very neatly to the countries over in Europe... there's no such thing as a local legislation here, for example

@BESW Haha :D

trogdor

lol

kviiri

11:12

I wonder if the effect on two-party system on personality development has been studied

trogdor

States Rights are a big deal here,.... even when neo-confederates aren't completely falsifying what it actually means XD

kviiri

Intuitively I think two party system encourages a black and white morality where OUR PARTY is right and THEIR PARTY is wrong for some, and for the others, "they're both wrong".

trogdor

@kviiri like how it effects everyone in a country with one you mean?

BESW

Tonight's dinner is tatsoi, onion, parlesy, sunflower seeds, and sprouts sauteed in olive oil with garlic and hot pepper and a dash of soy sauce, served on whole wheat rigatoni with a dressing of calamansi, honey, apple cider vinegar, olive oil, soy sauce, and sesame oil.

kviiri

@trogdor Yeah. In the statistical sense, I mean - of course there's always outliers

trogdor

11:14

@kviiri I mean, I can definitely tell you I know plenty of people who think that way

BESW

Feb 10 '14 at 23:37, by BESW

Pepsi vs Coke, Kirk vs Picard, Republican vs Democrat, RAW vs RAI, Tennant vs Smith, Islam vs Christianity, Edward vs Jacob...

trogdor

@BESW sounds lovely

Derpy

@kviiri don't worry. My country doesn't technically have a two party system, yet we are very able to turn our politics talks in soccer hooligans deathmach all the time.

kviiri

@trogdor I know plenty of them here as well, but I wonder if our multi-party political system (where a cabinet is always formed between several parties) serves to reduce that

BESW

I think it's a sort of chicken/egg thing, really.

trogdor

11:17

at the very least when it comes to talk about politics, I know my parents hate (political party) a lot,.... and at least one of their friends who is a (political party) has a simialr attitude towards (the entirely other political party)

BESW

I think the false dichotomy as worldview thing and the two-party thing reinforce each other.

kviiri

@Derpy I don't think many countries technically do, it's a feedback loop created by certain electoral mechanisms

trogdor

I mean, we definitely have other parties

but they are basically considered a joke

they typically get something like 1% of the vote, or slightly more than that at most

kviiri

eg. First-past-the-post voting. You can get elected in the US congress as a minor party representative, but you need to get a plurality of the vote in a single district which might be tricky business, especially if the district is gerrymandered heavily in someone else's favor.

And getting more seats for a minor party requires winning more districts, of course... basically having minority support anywhere, even significant minority support (like 10% or so) can result in one getting absolutely nothing.

trogdor

yeah gerrymandering is absolutely rotten

Derpy

11:22

@kviiri oh, I was just talking about the quality of their arguments. A line like "please vote for us because the opposing party members don't shower every day and smell bad" isn't so unrealistic in my country. By which I mean I will I can totally foresaw someone saying that in the future.

kviiri

@Derpy Now I'm interested!

I mean, I've seen videos of those parliamentary fights in the Eastern Europe...

BESW

@kviiri And then there's the spoils system, which sadly doesn't even make top three in the List of Horrible Things We Can Blame On Andrew Jackson.

kviiri

@BESW Ok I had to google that one... yisch. That shouldn't be.

trogdor

@BESW lol that list must exist somewhere

BESW

It's a good example of how a lot of the things which make the system completely dysfunctional aren't even part of the system.

Joel Harmon

11:24

@kviiri After trawling Politics.SE, I'm not sure how much difference a typical multi-party (EU-style) system makes vs. a more binary (US-style) system makes. It seems in both cases that there are a variety of view points that eventually compromise on something. The EU style is after the election, the US style before.

BESW

@trogdor There's a musical about it, but the musical should also be on the list.

trogdor

XD

kviiri

@JoelHarmon To be clear, I specifically mean the psychological long-term effects on the population, not the mechanics on how legislation works.

Derpy

@kviiri I remember that once there was a big scandal because a party had the wonderful idea to add a "satirical" remake of a popular song on their official web page. The "satirical" remake contained a line... that suggested people to get a rifle and start shooting immigrants.

BESW

@kviiri eg, whether/how it inculcates a dichotomous culture that influences other aspects of the individual's life.

Derpy

11:26

I don't recall all the details, but you get the basic idea.

kviiri

Yea

@BESW Yep :)

I'm not sure on that compromise thing, doesn't US government frequently struggle with obstructionism?

BESW

Oh, aye.

Joel Harmon

@kviiri Near as I can tell, most people feel strongly and are well educated in 0-3 major political issues. They tend to pick the party that best matches their views on that issue, and assume that people who are reasonable about that must be pretty good on everything else. I don't believe the number of available parties impacts that much.

BESW

@kviiri We run into false dichotomies all the time on RPG.SE. It's a fun little microcosm.

kviiri

@JoelHarmon Sounds like pretty black and white

BESW

11:34

RAW/RAI, gamist/simulationist, roleplaying/optmising, roleplaying/metagaming...

kviiri

There's this phenomenon of outgroup homogeneity where everyone of <outgroup> seems alike

I would guess having more active parties around would detract from that, because you'll get more refined outgroups instead of a single large one :P

BESW

...And then of course I start thinking about the Bahá'í election and administration structure.

kviiri

afk, going to get lunch

BESW

No parties, no candidates, no campaigning, and all positions have authority only in quorum--no authority rests with individuals. In local elections basically everyone who can vote can be voted for. In national elections each group of localities is represented by a voting delegate elected on the same principles as the local elections. In the international election, the elected national bodies are the voting delegates for each region.

You know who to vote for because you're expected to be an active part of the community and seeing who's out there displaying the qualities you think leaders should have.

(And of course, that makes you visible too.)

goodguy5

12:00

morning nerds

Derpy

which reminds me I need to find a towel...

goodguy5

um?

Derpy

May, 25

Derpy

12:21

Towel Day.

Hitchhiker Guide to the Galaxy

BESW

Africa Day. Saint's Day of the Venerable Bede. Missing Children's Day. Last bell.

KorvinStarmast

@kviiri The two party system evolved on its own; it isn't part of the framework. There are other parties, but once you get past the big two the impact drops off. Ross Perot tried to (as did Teddy Roosevelt with the Bull Moose party) change that and neither succeeded.

> Part of the problem is growing that kind of organization from the ground up, and at this point the "price of entry" is prohibitive.

@kviiri "ethics aside, Hitler was a pretty good leader" Who came up with that? He was an effective politician (that does not necessarily mean 'good leader') but his economic policies were very much "bet on the come line" (craps/gambling reference) in terms of how economic growth was to be achieved. (space does not permit further comment ...)

A friend of mine wrote a paper back in the mid 90's on the economic policies of the Third Reich, and how it was very much on a string ... but I have no idea what I did with it. (There has since been some serious scholarship on that ....)

kviiri

12:38

@KorvinStarmast Yes, it's pretty much fiction

@KorvinStarmast The two-party system is a product of the current system in the sense that it's a natural consequence of a first-past-the-post electoral system

It may not be an explicit part of it, but intentionally or not, the system implicitly made it be.

KorvinStarmast

@Kviiri In a nutshell, our coalitions (of varying interest groups) are pre-built, before elections. In Italy, UK, the coalitions happen after the elections. Your natural consequence does not account for two things: Jesse Ventura; Low Voter Turn Out. We are lucky to get 60% voter turn out. With that in mind ...

... if everyone who did not vote in the last national election had voted for me, I'd probably be president. (Granted, I wasn't on the ballot, and you do have to register to run).

kviiri

Low voter turnout is also influenced by first-past-the-post and winner-takes-it-all.

KorvinStarmast

That is a circular argument, and beyond the scope of this chat.

See Jesse Ventura as a case in point.

kviiri

I fail to see how it's circular

Or how a single notable exception refutes the general point, really.

KorvinStarmast

Jesse Ventura is not the only third party candidate to ever win a local, or state election. I simply use him to illustrate what is possible, since governor of Minnesota was a non trivial office. It may be that 20 years later, what happened there is not longer in play.

kviiri

12:46

yeah, I'm aware that the occasional congressional or senate seats are claimed by independent candidates. Doesn't change the fact that the game is essentially rigged against them

KorvinStarmast

The Citizen's United ruling is very recent, and IMO was a step in the wrong direction. The system itself (in terms of basic structure) isn't the problem, but (and again, this is my opinion, hardly fact) that particular ruling did serious damage to the ability of the system to change or adapt.

SPavel

@KorvinStarmast Wasn't the economic plan "funnel the entire economy into rearmament and then hope that we can plunder resources fast enough to keep the whole thing going"

kviiri

@KorvinStarmast I don't really believe in the US system's ability to change, otherwise they wouldn't have had Gerrymandering for over 200 years

KorvinStarmast

@kviiri We just got done with some primary elections here, and we had four different people being vetted for our districts seat in Congress. Again, our coalitions are in a lot of ways pre built. That primary election system is a feature that seems to get glossed over by foreign analysis.

kviiri

@KorvinStarmast Just seems like a rather slim comfort to me

KorvinStarmast

12:52

@Kviiri Your belief is noted. @SPavel That's an OK summary for a sound byte, though the scholarship is a bit more nuanced. (I think there was a decent History.SE article on that?

@Kviiri If you are looking for comfort from politics, I'd say you are looking in the wrong place. (Like looking for beer in a toothpaste tube :) )

kviiri

Well it just bugs me that the #1 democracy in the world has a rather sloppy implementation :<

David Coffron

@KorvinStarmast A coworker of mine sent a video of him (to our work groupchat) brushing his teeth with beer once so....

@kviiri implying USA has the #1 democracy

kviiri

@DavidCoffron I mean in terms of prominence :P

David Coffron

businessinsider.com/…

SPavel

There's a reason that the USA didn't implement its own system in, say, Germany

David Coffron

12:55

Oh lol, USA is the most democratic "world power"

SPavel

@DavidCoffron How do you define world power?

kviiri

@SPavel Well Germany has an unusually high level of state-by-state autonomy for an European country

although I think that predates US influence (might be HRE legacy?)

David Coffron

I suppose I should say most powerful high democracy nation @SPavel

SPavel

@kviiri The USA has an unusual level of state by state autonomy as well

@DavidCoffron How do you define "high democracy"?

kviiri

@SPavel Exactly my point :)

NautArch

12:56

@BESW Oh, sure...bring up a good company as the exception that proves the rule :)

David Coffron

@SPavel Not Russia or China xD

Tiggerous

I'm searching and failing to find a question about this but I'm fairly certain if I asked it, it would be a dupe: Cantrip damage increases depend upon total player levels not class levels. Most NPCs do not have class levels. To work out the damage from an NPC's cantrip do I refer to the number of hit dice in their stat block? (DnD 5e)

SPavel

@DavidCoffron USA is classified as "Flawed Democracy" by the democracy index

KorvinStarmast

@kviiri Your insult, and opinion, is noted. It works from the ground up, as designed, whether you like it or not. Our federal system is not top down, it is bottom up, and it is by intention inefficient. That is with the express purpose of not concentrating too much power into too few hands.

SPavel

@kviiri That's not really what I am talking about though

KorvinStarmast

12:57

@SPavel Here is one of the H.SE article I was thinking of, in terms of economic shenanigans of the Third Reich.

45

A: Where did Hitler get the funds to invest in economic development programs such as the autobahn when the German economy was in a depression?

The funds for the Autobahn project came from the Reinhardt Program, a credit finance scheme originated by Kurt von Schleicher. The contractors who built the highways were paid not in Reichsmark, but with debentures issued by the Reich Finance Ministry which could be redeemed at a discount at cert...

David Coffron

@SPavel Really? I didn't know it was considered THAT bad (although I personally hate the pseudo-democracy in the US).

NautArch

@Tiggerous WHat NPC stat block?

KorvinStarmast

@Kviiri That is part of why I was upset with the citizens united ruling. I deem it to be directly opposed to the "protection from over concentration" principle.

SPavel

Germany and UK rank much higher on the index, though UK (and US) has been doing its best to sabotage its international influence

David Coffron

@Tiggerous It will tell you what level to treat the creature in the Spellcasting trait

Tiggerous

12:58

@NautArch Any NPC that can cast a cantrip

KorvinStarmast

And with that, I apologize to you all for this political discussion, this isn't probably the best place for such things. Back to saving throws.

NautArch

@Tiggerous Can you give me an example of one you're trying to use?

kviiri

@KorvinStarmast Doesn't seem to me to have worked. The US president has more power than the president of almost any other Western power, and the two parties hold far more power than the parties of other Western powers.

Except for state-by-state legislation, of course, which I admit is a bigger deal than most non-US people realize.

David Coffron

@Tiggerous If you look at Archmage (mm 342), for example, it says "The archmage is an 18th-level spellcaster"

kviiri

But ok, let's quit with the politics

Rubiksmoose

13:00

@Tiggerous this is mainsite worthy

Tiggerous

@DavidCoffron and how many hit dice does it have?

David Coffron

@Tiggerous 18

but many creatures have "multiclass" monster "classes" so they end up with more hit dice than caster levels

(but will never have less afaik)

KorvinStarmast

@kviiri kviiri in the past year and a half, the checks and balances have been hard tested. So far, they have curbed executive power. Your estimate is a bit off. Doesn't seem to me to have worked. The US president has more power than the president of almost any other Western power.. only because of how big our economy is.

Tiggerous

@DavidCoffron So that works - but If I have an NPC with 6 hit dice that says its a level 4 spellcaster, that suggests 6 total levels (i just don't know what two of them are)

KorvinStarmast

> See also the power of current leader in China. There is a correlation ... also Frau Merkel.

Tiggerous

13:02

@Rubiksmoose Oh, not a dupe? I'll write it up.

kviiri

@KorvinStarmast Fwiw I mean specifically power in relation to the country they're ruling. Even vetoing legislation is pretty big.

Rubiksmoose

@Tiggerous I did a very quick search and did not come up with anything

KorvinStarmast

@kviiri OK, sorry, I misunderstood you. Vetoes can be overridden.

David Coffron

@Tiggerous treat it like a level 4 caster for cantrips (it says so in the Monster Manual Introduction on page 9)

kviiri

@KorvinStarmast Yeah but that requires what, 2/3 supermajority in both houses?

Rubiksmoose

13:02

And even if it does get duped at some point to some question about NPC spellcasting levels it is still helpful obviously.

KorvinStarmast

But it takes effort. (There is a hell of a lot of horse trading that goes on in Congress before a bill gets out of Legislative and into Executive)

kviiri

I wonder how often that has happened

NautArch

@Tiggerous When you do ask, please provide an example that people can work off of.

Rubiksmoose

@NautArch Was just about to say this +100

KorvinStarmast

Why do you say "but?" That's the point.

Tiggerous

13:03

@NautArch I'm interested in the general principle, but this was prompted by a specific situation, so I will do.

KorvinStarmast

OK, kviiri, let's curb this , I am sorry I kept it up. (Apologies to all other chat residents this morning)

SPavel

It's interesting to note that the President did not originally have nearly as much power as he does today

kviiri

yeah, I'm not really interested in continuing this either

SPavel

Let's talk about Finnish politics instead, question one: do you have them

KorvinStarmast

@kviii But thanks anyway ...

Rubiksmoose

13:04

@Tiggerous Yeah just try to make that clear, but giving an example is a must here otherwise the answers will just say "look at the spellcasting level".

kviiri

@SPavel The Finnish president used to have to power to dissolve the cabinet and call for new elections until UKK kept spamming it and the rules were patched :-)

KorvinStarmast

... it got me to find that link to how the autobahn was originally funded. :)

Rubiksmoose

(which might be the answer anyways)

SPavel

@kviiri We have the Queen for that

kviiri

@KorvinStarmast Hoho, the Germans had some really dirty bookkeeping tricks to rearm in secret :P

David Coffron

13:05

@Rubiksmoose (which is the answer anyways, unless specified otherwise in the monster statblock)*

Rubiksmoose

@kviiri You'd need a strong acid to dissolve a cabinet I think.

NautArch

FYI, i set up shared content on dndbeyond and it's pretty cool. All the content I"ve bought is now accessible to my table (for $55/year.) THat's a pretty good investment for the table to share.

SPavel

@kviiri Have you seen Babylon Berlin?

They go into the secret rearmament shenanigans a little bit

kviiri

@Rubiksmoose The president of Finland used to have an acid spit power too but that was retracted in the 1990's constitutional reform

@SPavel Nope

KorvinStarmast

@kviiri Kind of like Saruman making all of those Uruk Hai .... I think he tried to keep that underwraps. (book, not movie)

SPavel

13:06

@kviiri It was on Netflix for a while, it's racy but really good

@KorvinStarmast Weren't the Uruk-hai sort of a Robocop thing?

Rubiksmoose

@kviiri ah the good ol' days of politics.

KorvinStarmast

@SPavel More eugenics? Frankenstein?

SPavel

Or Clone Wars thing, he was all "hey so I am setting up this army to attack Sauron yeah"

And everyone was like cool cool

And then he totally flipped and nobody saw it coming

KorvinStarmast

@Speaking of SF/Speculative Fiction, my wife has me watching the new Lost in Space series/remake. Anyone else watching that?

SPavel

Here's my question: Saruman had that army, right? But what did Sauron have for troops that he was still more powerful?

Orcs are crap

The ring wraiths are just a few guys

Rubiksmoose

13:08

@DavidCoffron Yeah seems that way. But getting the right answer but not addressing the core confusion is pretty frustrating.

KorvinStarmast

@SPavel I think the Nazgul provided a buff when present ...

kviiri

@SPavel He had those "human barbarian" allies and IIRC more orcs by an order of magnitude

David Coffron

@Rubiksmoose Well Innate Spellcasting is the weird one. It usually lists spell level for Innate but if not you "use the monster's CR" which is frankly silly

NautArch

@SPavel didn't he have all those forces from the south?

KorvinStarmast

@SPavel Sauron had allies from the south (Haradrim) who were effective troops, and Oliphants!

David Coffron

13:09

since CR and level don't mesh well

kviiri

10

Q: How large were Saruman's and Sauron's armies?

I was pondering about Saruman's role as an opportunist ally of Sauron, when I realized that I had absolutely no idea how strong his army was compared to Sauron. We know Saruman fielded an impressive war economy in the relatively compact area of Isengard, and Sauron had behind him the might of the...

Rubiksmoose

@DavidCoffron oh that is strange...

NautArch

@DavidCoffron Tell me more of this Franky Silly. What CR is it?

David Coffron

@NautArch Challenge Rating* but there is no ECL for monsters like in 3.5e so it is a mess

NautArch

@DavidCoffron Whoooosh. joke fail.

David Coffron

13:12

@NautArch Oh I misread "what cr is it" as "what cr is"

Sorry...

@NautArch meet Franky Silly ^

Helwar

I leave and you start talking about politics, then hitler, then LotR

NautArch

@Helwar same thing.

Derpy

next: The Last Ringbearer?

SPavel

@Helwar Hitler? Who is Hitler? This is Senor Hilter.

Helwar

@SPavel The man who ruined a moustache style forever :P

Derpy

13:24

I seem to recall he was a kung-fu master, hence the name "Kung- Führer"

SPavel

@Derpy steamusercontent-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/267217313731876681/…

kviiri

I don't seem to be getting much thesis done today

maybe I'll just play Stella and hope for a better day tomorrow

Tiggerous

@NautArch @DavidCoffron @Rubiksmoose Question posted.

Colin Gross

@kviiri C'mon you can at least get one paragraph or figure done.

SPavel

13:41

@kviiri Just follow Strong Bad's advice

NautArch

13:56

@Tiggerous man, how did we all miss that dupe (and why do you think it isn't a dupe?)

Tiggerous

@NautArch I feel like the other question only deals with NPCs that have the Innate Spellcasting feature.

NautArch

@Tiggerous I'd say the question deals with both, but the answer does not.

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