TRPG General Chat

Shalvenay

12:02 AM

hey there @TimGrant and @nitsua60

Tim Grant

12:19 AM

Hi @Shalvenay

So I got a question...

Folks were saying yesterday my headline didn't match my question, so I bolted it down. But I'm wondering if I went too far...

"Is this a time to choose minimum damage per hit over average DPR?"

I feel like that's only one step off of headline my question: "What is the answer to the below question?"

Shalvenay

that...I'm really not sure about :/

Tim Grant

No problem. One day I'll get good.

;)

What's with the chalicothere, is someone making a Triassic adventure? (Which could be awesome...)

nitsua60

@TimGrant I feel like I liked (what I saw as) the core of that one. Something where the answer is areally good "here's *how" to think about damage; situations when the average is most important, situations where raising the minimum is more important, situations where raising the max is more important...."

But (a) I don't know if that's what you were getting at; (b) I don't know the question that produces that ^^ answer.

@Shalvenay hiya

Shalvenay

12:36 AM

@TimGrant BESW's random tweety birds :P

Tim Grant

What I really really want to know is when to use which attack. But first I want to try to prove that a lot of minmaxers' focus is too much on average DRP.

I'm a little disappointed when folks say, "Well, I'm not going to factor in criticals." I tagged it DND-5e for a reason.

Hello @Magician

Magician

Morning

Tim Grant

@Magician, are you the famous author of Goblin Dice that I'm always telling my players about when I tell them they cannot roll for stats?

Magician

...

guilty

trogdor

The die is cast

Tim Grant

12:41 AM

Awesome.

Magician

Glad you found it useful!

Tim Grant

I watch folks roll up characters -- it's amazing how they don't even realize they are cheating on the rolls when they do it.

We train ourselves. :)

How are you doing, @trogdor

trogdor

@TimGrant not that great today

Re-doing some data entry that took me and 3 other people months to do because the data got corrupted

Tim Grant

That does not sound like fun. That's data being entered from what...handwritten source?

trogdor

12:57 AM

The source is hand written and I am typing a bunch of things from an individual file at a time

There are about 7 or 8 cabinets of these files

And this time only 3 people are working on it

Tim Grant

And after all that, somebody let the data get corrupted.

Shalvenay

@TimGrant because it was on 1 bloke's hard disk and he had a habit of doing not-so-awesome-or-safe things with his work PC

Tim Grant

You ever think about learning to code? So many jobs to be had there. Lots of coders don't have college degrees or anything.

Shalvenay

instead of being backed up properly

Tim Grant

(I'm an English Major, myself.)

Gosh, you're an electrical engineer...doing reams of data entry?

Anyway, I should stop being nosey, sorry you have to do that typing. :)

trogdor

1:07 AM

I am not an electrical engineer though?

But anyway yeah this is a bad day

None too happy right now

Shalvenay

here's a thought -- why is lockpicking assumed to be the answer to a locked door in D&D games? (and when it's not, the answer is destructive forced entry)

Tim Grant

Hehe, not for me. When the door is locked I wish to cast Knock.

Yeah, nobody looks for a key. And if they found a key more than 10 minutes ago, they forgot they have it.

Shalvenay

@TimGrant :P I wasn't thinking about keys either

Tim Grant

You mean, just knocking on it?

Shalvenay

like...you never hear about the party rogue jimmying a door open in D&D

Tim Grant

1:17 AM

But our primary weapon is...SURPRISE!

BESW

monster concepts for next @MotW_rpg session: - "big mood," an insidious shapeshifting fog that selects its form according to its target's emotional state - end of list

Tweeted by jhermann on April 3, 2018 at 5:22 PM

Tim Grant

I've had players who want to life the bolt out of the hinge.

Shalvenay

@TimGrant ah yeah, good to hear :> pulling pins is another classic attack that you don't hear enough about

Tim Grant

<rant>I don't mind doors, as much as doorways. I am done with having fights through doorways. They are all the same and all boring.</rant>

BESW

One of my favorite battles in recent memory featured a character entering the scene by using the Masters of Umdaar stunt "Super Strong" on the door.

> Super Strong (Forceful): Once per scene, when you attempt to Forcefully overcome a physical obstacle in your path by trying to breaking it, you can outcome surge the result. Whenever you use this stunt, place a Debris situation aspect on the scene with no free invoke.

(See also Naomi in Lady Blackbird.)

> Secret of Destruction. You can break things with your bare hands as if you were swinging a sledgehammer. It’s scary.

Tim Grant

1:25 AM

My wife says that's what I'm like.

I've never played Fate. I'm wondering, does it actually make people role-play more?

trogdor

It does facilitate it

Make is a strong word though

I will say, it's mechanics actually help role playing more than any edition of D&D I have played

Which to be fair is not saying much

Tim Grant

Yeah, Inspiration is meant for that, but I've yet to see it work.

trogdor

Fate is good for role playing a character if you play it the way it is intended

Tim Grant

By "make" I mean on average are people more likely to play their characters.

trogdor

Inspiration seems kind of hand wavey to me so far

nitsua60

1:33 AM

@TimGrant I've liked Angry's recent suggestion to put inspiration in players' hands: they take it for themselves when they've brought to the fore one of their traits/bonds/ideals/flaws.

trogdor

Yes I would say so

nitsua60

(Though maybe you should ask one of my players in the conversation; not that we've had much time to try that out!)

Tim Grant

I've tried asking the players to ask for Inspiration, or nominate each other. No dice.

trogdor

You use aspects to say what your character is like (it's hard to make good aspects but good aspects that you pay attention to make you role play your character)

Tim Grant

Flip side, I've asked for Inspiration and always get denied. My regular crew, maybe they'd all rather be playing AD&D 1E anyway, but other groups, same deal really.

nitsua60

1:35 AM

@TimGrant Similar experiences here. The thing I like about TBIF-inspiration is that there's a spot on the sheet where the player wrote a thing that triggers it.

Tim Grant

Well, your fault is supposed to trigger it, right? Anytime you do something true to your character.

Hmm, next time I DM in person, I think I'll put trophies on the table as props.

If that doesn't work, then I guess I have to buy Fate. :)

nitsua60

Eh, I put a small dish of d20s that are color-coded to my players' minis in the center of the table and they still don't take them.

Tim Grant

So real soon now my friends and I are having a weekend away, where D&D will feature prominently. We are (finally) letting my friend DM who always kills PC's.

Shalvenay

@TimGrant it sounds like that DM should be introduced to Great Ork Gods

Tim Grant

I'll be playing a wizard, but an Abjuration wizard with Plate Mail.

Heh, we used to play Orcin parties once in a while, could be fun. Of course, Call of Cthulhu works great too for semidisposable parties.

nitsua60

1:44 AM

@TimGrant I had an abjuration wizard avoid insta-death by 1 hp the other night. I was really glad for that 18-hp arcane ward!

BESW

@nitsua60 Candy. It's a bowl of candy, and they can only take from the bowl when they earn the inspiration.

Shalvenay

@TimGrant Ftr1/Wiz? or dwarf?

BESW

(Once they have it, they can eat it immediately or save it until they use the inspiration and then eat it.)

Tim Grant

Wizard + War Cleric. Although despite what Stack RPG says I think that is bending the rules.

nitsua60

@TimGrant how so?

Tim Grant

1:46 AM

I just don't feel the rules meant for someone multi classing to War Cleric was meant to get heavy armor proficiency.

The multi-class to cleric proficiencies don't seem to make sense unless you account for them restricting the Divine Domains

But that's just my feeling so I haven't added an answer. :)

nitsua60

But the lead-in to the table specifically mentions that "you gain only some of that class's starting proficiencies." (emphasis mine)

So the immediate question that'd come to my mind is "who, other than clerics, gains weapon/armor proficiencies after L1?"

Tim Grant

Yes. The rules say it, and I will certainly point that out if my friend questions it. But my gut tells me it wasn't meant to be that way.

Shalvenay

@nitsua60 Bladelocks?

Tim Grant

Well, dwarves and elves

Shalvenay

(with their pact weapon)

BESW

1:50 AM

Reminds me of the Battle Cleric's Lore multiclass trick. But, you know, that was pretty clear when you actually delved into it.

Shalvenay

@TimGrant after, not before :P

nitsua60

@TimGrant ??

Tim Grant

Oh...

Um, Clerics gain those at Level 1.

nitsua60

Yeah, but it's strange. "Starting proficiency" isn't actually a defined term (nor is it used anywhere else) so I think there're reasonable arguments to be made both for starting=the ones listed just before starting equipment or for starting=the ones you have before you ever play.

I say post it!

Tim Grant

Heh, not until after I get to play my full plate wizard.

You might like AD&D style lightly-armored elves, but I played Red Box for a while, where there's no reason to wear anything but plate.

BESW

1:56 AM

That's another thing I liked about 4e; they did a very good job of making the light/heavy armor choice a meaningful part of your build.

And with enchantment restrictions, even the kind of light/heavy armor really mattered for some folks.

Tim Grant

Yes, just double checked. Cleric multi-class proficiencies exactly match a "vanilla" cleric's.

nitsua60

So the line in the MC table lacks effect unless it restricts Life/War Clerics' heavy armor?

Tim Grant

Yeah.

nitsua60

That's a strong argument for me, personally: one of my canons of statutory construction is that where possible words should be construed so as to have effect.

Maybe not strong; just medium. It's just one line in the table....

Tim Grant

Hmm, and I think that's the only class where that is like that.

nitsua60

2:00 AM

I'll have to think about it a bit.

BESW

@nitsua60 Counterpoint: game writers are often paid by the word.

Shalvenay

@nitsua60 although WotC has written dead air before, unlike Congress :P

(who saves that for their speeches and such)

Tim Grant

Nope, I was wrong about that...

Shalvenay

@TimGrant wrong about which?

nitsua60

Counterpoint: I have no doubt we're putting more thought into ~~some~~ many of these things than the authors had/took time to

Tim Grant

2:02 AM

Sometimes the multi class proficiencies granted match what the class grants at Level 1.

BESW

@nitsua60 ...yet another reason I gravitated towards Fate.

Tim Grant

I would say, I think the rules were well thought out and play-tested, but moreso that the writing of the rules.

Hence, the PH reprint.

nitsua60

Sure. And I make typos on two-page tests. I don't envy them the job, nor do I think I'd actually do any better at it. But it is the job they signed up for.

Tim Grant

I read through the D&D Next stuff as it came out, it sure FELT like they were tweaking the rules like crazy. And then maybe not expressing themselves super great.

4th Edition, you could have written a video game using the rule books as requirements. But when 5th Edition came out, I just wanted to hug the books, because my game was back. Weird rules almost contributed to that.

OK, great chat, but the dog tells me it's now bed time. Everybody gets to tell me what to do.

kviiri

8:35 AM

Hi!

doppelgreener

@BESW Thanks for raising that meta post.

Chat does go undiscovered by some, so to the extent that the voting might be driven by thinking we have no chat at all, that's super useful to bring up.

kviiri

@TimGrant By my experience, the "GM rewards players for roleplaying" thing doesn't really work out easily. I guess there's a complex social dynamic that "ok, if I reward that guy now, I'll set the standard for all the future times when someone does something similar" and all.

I've yet to get Fate experience but the system where players can suggest compels themselves seems more likely to work to me.

Rubiksmoose

8:53 AM

@doppelgreener that is a good point. I was certainly aware of it vaguely when I started (mainly from all the comments moved to chat notices lol), but was too intimidated for a long time to even lurk.

doppelgreener

Fate helps in that it is fairly well defined in what situation you get a fate point. It's not up to the GM or anyone to decide. It's up to them to veto, however, if they feel it's not appropriate — bad things don't give you fate points if you were making a roll to prevent them from happening or if they don't actually have enough teeth.

kviiri

I was rather frustrated with the Savage Worlds bennies (in Deadlands, they use a slightly modified rule called Fate Chips with the same issues)

They combine two things I hate: they're an arbitrary roleplaying reward and they're those "use these to be cool/survive" points except they're also bonus exp if left unused.

Randomized bonus exp, even - for each benny left unused at the end of the session, the player gets to roll a d6. 5 or 6 is one extra exp.

The whole system just screams "perverse incentives" to me and this part is no exception.

Rubiksmoose

@kviiri guess it is better than perverts' incentives though

kviiri

@Rubiksmoose As long as it's safe, sane and consensual... because SW was, for us, only safe and consensual, but not exactly sane or sanity-enhancing.

Rubiksmoose

@kviiri darned right!

doppelgreener

9:13 AM

@Rubiksmoose ... that gives me another bit to say that's enough reason to leave a comment on the post. (I didn't want to just say +1 thanks etc)

Rubiksmoose

@doppelgreener Glad to be have helped :)

Rubiksmoose

9:27 AM

So, do we use chat more than most SEs (for our size)? Or am I misunderstanding some of the comments?

doppelgreener

No, that's what we mean.

RPG.SE has an unusually active chat.

It's not unusually active as far as other active chats go, but most Stack sites just don't have active chat rooms.

Rubiksmoose

@doppelgreener huh. I honestly like it quite a lot.

doppelgreener

same, i love this room. :)

BESW

Here's our recent stats:

Szega

@doppelgreener It is almost as if this Stack is for a hobby that heavily relies on communication... :)

BESW

9:40 AM

Here's the stats for lit.se:

Rubiksmoose

I think the first time I was sheparded this way directly was to try to reopen my "death by leveling" question lol

BESW

And graphicdesign.se:

Rubiksmoose

wow

we are a chatty bunch

BESW

Any attempt to create a fourthspace for RPG.SE off-site is going to be in direct competition with this chat space.

Most people who want a chat option are here already.

kviiri

Yep

BESW

9:44 AM

Very few of us will put the same amount of effort into another chat option while maintaining the same level of effort here.

So both this chat and that one will be smaller than either one would be otherwise, and this space will "win" in the end because this is the one that's attached to the reason we're all here in the first place, and this space is the one with institutional assurances for its continuity and safety.

kviiri

Considering that this is a chat for a medium-sized website devoted to a non-mainstream hobby scene, I think we're doing quite good here

disclaimer: I have no idea how RPG.stackexchange compares in activity to any other RPG site or forum. I think the sidebar effect might be playing in our favor, though.

BESW

Scifi.se:

Gaming.se:

Rubiksmoose

woooow it really surprises me that we are beating gaming. I just kind of thought they would be active

BESW

Scifi.se used to be much much more active.... but that activity turned toxic because people got used to saying just whatever without any filter.

The chat room was burned to the ground and a new one rose from its ashes, moderately chastened.

doppelgreener

10:02 AM

@BESW Wasn't so much the activity that turned them toxic, as the unchecked toxicity did.

BESW

Calling themselves Mos Eisley probably didn't help.

kviiri

I was just going to point that out, yup.

doppelgreener

In an entirely unpredictable turn of events, it became a wretched hive of scum and villainy. — Paul D. Waite May 14 '17 at 10:23

BESW

But generally I've seen a direct correlation between chat activity and toxic chat culture.

doppelgreener

Oh OK.

Rubiksmoose

10:04 AM

@BESW don't jinx us!

BESW

The more a chat is a constant always-on flow of content, the less the content can be moderated and the more pressure there is to just say anything to maintain the flow.

doppelgreener

I'll watch out for that if it becomes an issue during my moderation lifetime.

kviiri

It's sometimes hard to forget that the other people on the chat are human too

(except myself because I'm an otter)

BESW

The fact that we have long periods of quiet is good.

Frezak

"Toxic Sludge Phoenix". Like those tar-covered seabirds.

splat splat

splat

doppelgreener

10:05 AM

I'm not familiar with that pokemon

BESW

It's also one reason I'm so vocal about using the star bar as a way to think about conversations, rather than as a +1 bar: if stars become likes, more and more chat content is going to be for the sake of getting stars.

Stars-as-likes is also a habit I've come to associate with chats that aren't Nice or Fun or Welcoming.

Frezak

Look, if you want to reflexively star anything I say, I won't call you a bad host.
(unless the eggs don't take)

BESW

(The counterbalance is chats that don't have any stars at all; often because they have a tiny ingrown set of members and there's no need to star anything for the attention of others because everybody's already there when it's said. Chats without stars tend to be insular and hard to break into.)

kviiri

I think our starbar looks pretty good at the moment though.

BESW

Agreed.

trogdor

10:12 AM

especially since some of those stars are super meta

especially the top XD

it's both amusing and makes a good point

doppelgreener

i appreciate the irony of that one

Rubiksmoose

@doppelgreener I must admit, every time this issue comes up I really have to hold back my inner child from starring things like crazy. (Ok not really, but the mischievous thoughts do present themselves)

fwiw I really like the way our starboard works right now and also don't want stars to become likes.

doppelgreener

@Rubiksmoose the "we shouldn't really push absolutely all those buttons" desire to push absolutely all the buttons?

Rubiksmoose

@doppelgreener absolutely. though the worst was when I worked in a nuclear power plant.

BESW

> Big flashy lighty things have got me written all over them. Well, not actually, but give me time. And a crayon.
- The Eleventh Doctor, "A Christmas Carol"

trogdor

10:17 AM

@doppelgreener I mean,.... maybe it's a little ironic, but I feel like a reminder up on the board is a good thing too

Rubiksmoose

They literally have that big red glowing button that you are never, ever supposed to push. I mean just like it was out of a cartoon.

(technically they have lots of those buttons - basically all of them. But there was one that threw the rods in that was the button.)

doppelgreener

@trogdor yes :D

@Rubiksmoose oh no XD

Rubiksmoose

Yeah...fun times lol.

Derpy

Morning. Just a quick service message. If anyone is interested, here is the main meta site post about the NAA "issue" I was asking you about some time ago. As you can see, I wan't very lucky since the replies are all very generic and don't really take any real stand in one direction or the other.

Rubiksmoose

@Derpy ohhhh I read through that went it was posted but didn't make the connection.

trogdor

10:22 AM

@doppelgreener indeed?

Derpy

@Rubiksmoose (Basically, Shog just suggested a case-by-case approach. Problem is, this means that any mod is free to handle flags as he like, and therefore one mod can decline a flag just to have it accepted by the next one. Imho... not really the best solution/approach but it seems we will have to live with that)

trogdor

@Derpy long time no see XD

doppelgreener

A @Derpy and a @Powerdork! Nice to see you both! :D

Rubiksmoose

@Derpy it is a bit of a shame that you cannot bounty meta posts

Powerdork

[neigh]

How goes?

doppelgreener

10:26 AM

@Derpy Thanks. Was that something you were asking about in a meta post you raised, or was it here in chat? (I'm wondering if there's some context I should refresh myself on.)

trogdor

@doppelgreener apparently we started the invasion and no one told me :P

BESW

@Derpy I read that as meaning more "make a meta post on the specific site's meta about the specific question," not "let moderators handle it fait accompli."

kviiri

@Powerdork Hi!

BESW

[wave]

Rubiksmoose

Mar 23 at 16:21, by Derpy

Good afternoon. Sorry to bother you. If anyone has a little spare time, I would like to ask you a quick question about what you consider NAA (Not An Answer) on your site.

doppelgreener

10:27 AM

@Rubiksmoose Gotcha :)

Rubiksmoose

There's not really a lot of context to get, but I figure it'll save derpy some typing at least

trogdor

@Rubiksmoose nice hunting, found that pretty fast

doppelgreener

(@Derpy also, yep, in that example you asked our canonical handling is to delete.)

Rubiksmoose

@trogdor I was surprised! Must be on my game today.

BESW

@Derpy Specifically, "You lament the occasional instance where a dissatisfied flagger brings a case to meta. I rejoice in the ability of our people to evaluate posts on their merit and overturn moderator decisions when the need arises." Meta is how we appeal cases, but it's also how understanding and policy develops and changes. The way we create broad understandings of how NAA can and can't work is by encouraging community discussions about specific examples that aren't working.

trogdor

10:31 AM

@Rubiksmoose always nice to be on one of those

Derpy

@Rubiksmoose ? what do you mean? I could technically post a bounty on that post, but to what avail?

doppelgreener

@Rubiksmoose You can bounty Meta.SE posts since it's not implemented as a meta. :)

Rubiksmoose

@doppelgreener ohhhhhhhhhh

Nevermind then lol.

trogdor

Lol

Rubiksmoose

@Derpy I mean a big bounty attracts eyes at the very least and hopefully attempts at more answers. Isn't that what you want? Isn't that what bounties are for?

doppelgreener

10:34 AM

It's very unusual in that regard, being a meta with rep... people have suggested to remove its rep flow and bounties, and instead make peoples' rep on their fixed to their total network rep.

@Rubiksmoose [midway starts reading this in tones of a heroic speech]

Rubiksmoose

@doppelgreener hahaha!

Szega

@Rubiksmoose It still only shows up on meta. I am not sure how frequently most of us go there.

Derpy

@Rubiksmoose sorry, I meant what doppel said soon after. You said that "It is a bit of shame that you can't add a bounty", I didn't realize you didn't know that the main meta site does not behave like the by-site metas and was confused by your answer.

Rubiksmoose

@Derpy Right I got that part. But then you said "to what avail?" which was the part I was focusing on post-my-derp

Derpy

@Rubiksmoose Ok, that's more clear now. What I meant is that I posted that question hoping for a sort of "official answer" from the staff. I basically already got one in form of Shog answer. As I said, it doesn't really satisfy me but I think I will have to live with it.

Rubiksmoose

10:42 AM

@Derpy I gotcha. Thought that might be the case. :-/

Derpy

Well, I do think that at least a basic agreement upon that issue is needed to avoid wasting users time raising potentially unwanted flags and mod time handling potentially unwanted flags. I also didn't want to discuss every possible case of NAA but only focus on the "answer to the wrong question" ones.

BESW

At the very least, NAA understandings have to be site-specific: while it's important to be guided by Stack-wide experience, each site's particular subjects and challenges are unique.

So, again, those understandings emerge from discussion about specific answers where it's unclear if they count or not.

I've seen betas that try to answer these sorts of policy questions before they have experience with the beast in the wild, and the very best that happens is they have to have the conversation all over again later.

Derpy

Well, I think one could at least find an initial agreement upon the basic "if you ask for an apple, an orange is an answer?" principle, that then could be re-discussed as needed on a single case by case answer, but I do respect your view.

BESW

Well, for example.

On RPG.SE we've got a very clear policy that if you think, based on your experience, that the solution to the asker's problem is NOT something that would actually answer the question they're asking, you can give that answer! But first you have to do due diligence in showing why you think it's a better answer than the kind of thing being asked for.

If you just give an answer that's not being asked for, that's gonna get flagged.

Derpy

10:57 AM

@BESW a sort of x-y problem you mean?

BESW

Right.

This is a nuance which Shog's cute but not especially helpful chart doesn't cover.

doppelgreener

to extend that chart's analogy, it's giving them a full baked meal when all they were asking for was an apple, because you can tell they're hungry and that's the real issue. or something like that.

Derpy

oh, that fine for me. To be totally honest, my question was prompted by having seen a specific example I posted happening on multiple instances, to different users on many code-related network sites, mostly SO.

> Question asks why a snippet of code copied from an online sample doesn't produce the same results as in the demo, Answer suggest moving to a different tool / framework instead.

^ this one to be specific. I tried to generalize, and I probably generalized too much in the process.

BESW

(The chart irks me.)

Derpy

Basically, user A is trying to replicate the results from a sample in a book/site/other in order to learn a topic. He does some mistake (either because he miss-understood the original docs, or because the docs are wrong/poorly written). User B steps in and suggest he moves to a different topic.

BESW

11:03 AM

That is clearly Not An Answer, but could become a frame challenge if it leads with An Answer and then segues into the pitch for a different topic.

Derpy

@BESW "clearly"? I had multiple people telling me that is just a "wrong" answer that should be downvoted but not flagged.

BESW

Then, as you say, you're generalizing too much.

If that's the problem you're trying to solve, trying to re-write the entire system is overkill and may not solve the problem anyway--especially if you bury the lede about the specific instance you're trying to solve with a system overhaul.

Also, some Stacks are just very permissive.

On RPG.SE that sort of answer wouldn't be taken seriously without surrounding support.

On scifi.se it'd probably be upvoted and accepted if it included a screenshot from a film many people are familiar with.

Again, it's not something that Stack-wide policy can change because every site chooses how much of Stack-wide policy it keeps or changes or ignores.

Derpy

re-write the system? Why? I didn't meant to rewrite anything. I just wanted to know what the main view about the problem is. Again, I didn't plan for a solution. I was only looking for some sort of clarification. As now, the result of this confusion? is that multiple users have stopped flagging those dubious cases.

@BESW but yep, I do agree that probably trying to come up with a network shared vision wasn't exactly a good idea

still, at least it was useful to get me started on the issue.

Anyway, didn't mean to hijack the room, sorry. Fell free to return to whatever the topic was before I came. I just wanted to post the promised link to the question before forgetting (again)

doppelgreener

11:20 AM

No problem at all. This conversation's welcome here. It could instead optionally take place in our overflow room.

BESW

@Derpy Thank you, it's appreciated!

And I do think that relying too much on site-specific experience can be a problem, so it's good to check what the Stack-wide learning is, and contribute our own experiences to that learning.

(I see a lot of betas which try to reinvent the wheel as if there's not some default guidelines from which to deviate, or trying to solve problems they've seen on other Stacks before finding out if they're a problem on the new Stack.)

Derpy

@BESW well, a little final element that may help you understanding why I posted that question. We had some users that were somehow scared by this message.

BESW

That's important to include, yeah.

Derpy

Sometime, that was due to a conjunction of "very few flags raised by those users" and "declined NAA flags".

BESW

As always, concealing elements which prompted asking the question tends to mean that answers aren't as useful as they could be.

Derpy

11:30 AM

yep, I should probably add those elements to the question. Sadly, I wasn't able to find out the full picture about how declined flags are handled until recently.

BESW

For example, if a particular site is having trouble with a lot of declined NAA flags, that means mods and other users on that site aren't on the same page about what NAA means, and the site should embark on a program of study and education about the nature of NAA in its own context.

It doesn't matter if there's a coherent Stack-wide NAA policy or not, if a particular site's community doesn't know about it or doesn't care.

One of the reasons RPG.SE is the way it is, is that we had some mods toward the beginning who set a strong precedent about facilitating community education.

Derpy

To be fair, long ago a very bad "flag view" could indeed trigger a flag shadow ban, so that should at least make it clear why I initially regarded a "flag anyway, let's mod decide, then re flag and check if the next mod thinks the same" approach very dangerous.

BESW

And, well. Privilege suspensions are still a thing for many functions, and they're quite good at giving a hard "stop" signal to folks who run rampant without checking what they're doing.

Derpy

> I've asked around before and it doesn't look like recovery is possible. To recover, you'd need to gain flag weight, and to gain flag weight you need someone to handle your flags. Since your flags now go into the void, you can't get any of them marked helpful via any means. – Anna Lear♦

^ luckily, this is no longer the case.

BESW

It's very hard to trigger them, also; every time I've seen an automatic question ban, for example, multiple people have begged the querent to read the [help] and [tour] but they keep asking serial VLQs without having done the reading.

Derpy

11:37 AM

I only discovered this after posting that question though, so please bear with me if it is a little unclear / bad. But I think it should explain why I was very afraid of that "flag, see how it goes" suggestion may gave me.

BESW

Aye, they tend to be pretty good about fixing truly broken social engineering mechanics.

nitsua60

@BESW The question is, though, how many are in OP's position: would participate in space 4 but don't in space 3? And we here (in space 3) really have no way to gauge that....

BESW

@nitsua60 The reasons I've seen given for not participating in space 3 tend to overlap with space 4...

goodguy5

Morning nerds

BESW

(And, realistically, how many folks not participating in space 3 are going to find space 4?)

nitsua60

11:57 AM

True.

Derpy

@trogdor (as I said I have sadly got out of the table-board rpg scene lately, so I try to avoid coming here too much since I don't have much to share on the topic. Sorry)

trogdor

@Derpy not a problem

:)

goodguy5

12:51 PM

does anyone have a good explanation of HP that feels better than D&D's standards?
Or perhaps a homebrew system to deal with HP vs injury?

SPavel

Well, D&D's standard explanation of HP is "don't think about it too hard"

I like it as "plot armor" - the hero's heroicness can turn deadly blows into minor injuries that are sufficiently grievous to look cinematic, but not meaningfully debilitating

A level 1 commoner has very limited heroism, which is represented by his 2 whole hit points

A minor potion will take the commoner from negative 9 to full, and an adventurer from negative 9 to 2, both can walk around and fight, but the adventurer's plot armor must be mended with more potions

goodguy5

So, theoretically, HP is "your ability to fight".

getting "hit" for 10HP out of your 20HP doesn't mean that you were half killed.
It means it used up half your "ability to fight".

SPavel

Yeah

Metaphysical ablative armor

goodguy5

so, how do you integrate that into a narrative that feels good?

SPavel

@goodguy5 Die Hard

goodguy5

12:57 PM

Are you referencing a rule I don't know about, or the movie(s)?

SPavel

By the end of that McClane is basically in pieces, but he's not really below peak performance

goodguy5

So, let me exemplify what I mean.

(sorry, delayed by coworker)

So, the non-narrative is:
A Goblin attacks you. He deals 5 damage.

The usual narrative (over) attempt is something to the effect of:
The goblin runs forward, spittle flying from behind his gnarled teeth. His crude blade bites into the flesh of your thigh, dealing 5 damage.

but neither of those "feels good, man"

kviiri

@SPavel I like this one.

goodguy5

how can I either change how HP works to coincide with the latter, or describe things in such a way to be copacetic with how hp works

kviiri

Basically, HP-as-it-is is a mechanical construct to get a certain feeling in the combat proceedings. It doesn't need to map to real world concepts well for that purpose.

SPavel

1:07 PM

@goodguy5 That's not how combat even works. In combat, things are happening simultaneously, combatants are feinting, sidestepping, blocking, shield-bashing, shifting balance, grappling - all at once.

D&D models this very abstractly.

One attack is not one swing of the blade.

goodguy5

exactly

kviiri

HP is so central that alterations to it will be major unless proven otherwise. I can sort of relate to the wish for "wound mechanics" because I wanted those too when I was playing 4e - but Savage Worlds / Deadlands:Reloaded made a very good point about why they aren't good for the kind of game we wanted to play.

But there's plenty of room between DnD hit points and Savage Worlds.

SPavel

The narrative equivalent of "goblin makes a move action to become adjacent to you, and then an attack action that exceeds your AC and deals 5 damage" is like a paragraph of stuff

kviiri

Not necessarily fertile ground, but something worth considering.

goodguy5

@SPavel precisely my point

So, how can I concisely narrate combat in a way that
a) is gratifying
b) jives with what hit points are
c) there is no "c)"

kviiri

1:10 PM

There's this Angband variant called Steamband which has a two-tier HP system. It might be a pain to implement in a tabletop, but for your inspiration: there's Hit points (representing stamina, dodging, pain tolerance etc) and Wound points (representing actual serious wounds requiring treatment).

Getting hit reduces one's HP by the amount of damage received, but each point of damage has a chance to be subtracted off wound points instead. That chance increases as one loses HP. (this'd be a tricky part in tabletops)

WP 0 is death (-bands tend to lack a party to revive an unconscious character) so you'll want to avoid that.

SPavel

The goblin:
-Spots you, deciding that you look weak/are a worthy foe
-Rushes at you/sneaks up towards you/weaves in and out of combat
-Lunges through your reach/deflects your blade/leaps up to grab your shield and practically climbs over it/ducks under the shield using his short stature/pops up behind you at the last moment
-Strikes you with his weapon in a single accurate blow that belies years of training/smashes through your armor with unnatural unholy strength/unleashes a flurry of weak attacks, one of which manages to hit by sheer luck

kviiri

However, having less than a given ratio of total wound points gives a ticking chance for the wounds to inflict status effects or "bleed" extra damage. So over time, you'd want to return to the safety of the town to tend to your wounds.

SPavel

Don't mention hit points

Don't mention AC

kviiri

Lower WP left, greater chance of suffering extra effects.

SPavel

Hell, don't narrate all of that, or combat will never end

In the kind of game that D&D is (rocket tag), taking HP damage is a significant narrative event.

kviiri

1:14 PM

Alternative: give only curt, mechanical descriptions of the normal combat proceedings like attacks, hits, misses, damage. Let the players fill it in in their heads. For me, no description at all is better than a half-hearted attempt at one because that lets me fill in the gaps.

This is one of those places where people have different tastes, though.

kviiri

1:33 PM

You could also try some other system, unless you specifically want to preserve the 5e tactical combat thing.

goodguy5

@kviiri such as?

SPavel

There are non-D&D systems? I think those are off topic for this stack.

kviiri

@SPavel They're never off-topic for me.

@goodguy5 Apocalypse World has a rather quick way to resolve combats, both 1-on-1 and mass combats. It's not tactical in the DnD way, so it might not be appropriate for your purposes, but not having to spend more time than is interesting per encounter is a big bonus in my books.

There exists a fantasy conversion of the usually post-apocalyptic setting, I just don't remember the name.

It's a "palette swap".

Anyway, in Apocalypse World, you don't basically track HP for NPCs at all. 1-harm, they're hurt. 2-harm, they're hurt bad, occasionally dead straight away. 3-harm, mortally wounded, likely to die fast without medical attention. 4-harm, they're both unlikely and unlucky to survive that.

There's also Dungeon World, but it sticks to the good old HP. But the GM is expected to keep the combats more narrative from just "I hack and slash at the goblin". By my experience, it's not as easy as it might seem.

SPavel

@kviiri That would just make his problem worse

kviiri

@SPavel Quite probably. I'm not a fan of Dungeon World. I just wanted to point it out before someone else comes rushing in and saying that "if you want to play AW with fantasy, why not use Dungeon World"?

goodguy5

1:48 PM

I'll just talk with my players and see what they want.

kviiri

@goodguy5 That's always good :)

SPavel

@goodguy5 People are usually very bad at articulating what they want

goodguy5

@SPavel ... I know. -sigh-

Yuuki

@SPavel Is it so hard to say "+2 blessed rustproof grey dragon scalemail"?

goodguy5

@Yuuki Isn't Mithril Rustproof?

and that ... armor of shining or whatever

SPavel

1:52 PM

@Yuuki I don't know if that's a thing

Yuuki

@SPavel It's more of a video game reference, I guess.

It's a common thing to wish for in Nethack.

kviiri

You could wish for "blessed fixed <something>", with the "fixed" meaning it's protected from whatever form of corrosion or degradation that could affect it.

Since it's, well, a Wish, adding that little specifier is an excellent idea. ;)

@SPavel I got a really good tip from @MikeQ (pinging you, Mike, to let you know that it worked!) to ask about specific stuff

I got lots of better answers after asking about specific things rather than only open questions

Yuuki

Yeah, probably one of the few times leading questions are a good idea.

SPavel

A leading question from a player is not really a question, it's a statement with a question mark on the end

A leading question from a DM to a player is useless

Rubiksmoose

2:09 PM

Really silly question, is it ok to use a tweet from another answer and put it in my already existing answer? I usually find them first or have the person explicitly allow me to use it. don't know why I'm being a bit weird about it now.

SPavel

Like, a tweet quoted by another answer? Yes it's fine

You can't call dibs on a source

Rubiksmoose

Yeah

SPavel

"I quoted the PHB so nobody else can quote the PHB nyah nyah"

"Yeah well my uncle works at WotC"

"yeah well my uncle can beat up your uncle"

Rubiksmoose

Fair enough. Like I said, I have no idea why I chose this thing to be all insecure about lol. I'm going to blame it on lack of sleep. Thanks

@SPavel "dibs on DnDB"

Mike Q

2:27 PM

@kviiri Uh oh, what did I do this time?

kviiri

yesterday, by Mike Q

@kviiri Dunno if you're familiar with graphic design or similar fields, but it's kind of like pitching to a client. Questions like "What do you want it to have" or "What do you want it to look like" are too open ended and are best avoided - there's a general assumption that the client doesn't really know what they want

Worked like a charm. Except charms don't work but this advice did.

I gave them a list of plot things that they could see in a 7th Sea story and asked them to pick ones they'd like to explore the most and ones that they aren't really interested in. They were rather quick to respond

and the results seem good

("good" in the sense that they're giving me insights I didn't have before)

nitsua60

2:54 PM

PHB4e arrived today =)

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