TRPG General Chat - 2016-06-26

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Skathix

00:00

Neat

Russian Cutaway gag lol

Shalvenay

@Skathix eh -- are you saying that none of the PCs are well-read/well-storied IC?

Skathix

-Torture scene- "The scene cuts away to a poorly drawn hedgehog working on a farm, he says "In soviet russia, potato farm you"

Kinda, two of them are, three of them aren't

Shalvenay

@BESW and yeah -- that's a huge problem -- basically the tabletop version of the MMO "static world trope"

BESW

00:12

All I'm saying is, whoever did QA and bug-testing on cats? You guys missed a lot. This is some Alpha-build quality code here.

Tweeted by Nash076 on June 25, 2016 at 11:38 PM

1 hour later…

Shalvenay

01:23

hey there @nitsua60

Miniman

01:35

@Skathix Rather than making threats, have you tried just asking him to stop? There's a pretty obvious argument that it makes it less fun *for him, so if you ask nicely he might just accept it.

In general, threatening to kill a player's character is a fairly ineffective form of motivation. If you really want something to threaten a player with, kicking them out of the group is pretty much the only thing you've got that's likely to have an impact.

2 hours later…

Miniman

03:50

@Eidolon108 Now that the invocations are up: Yep, it's definitely overpowered.

Eidolon108

04:26

@Miniman I figured as much, but I wanted to get some ideas down. Where is the worst of the imbalance to your mind?

Miniman

04:38

@Eidolon108 As before, there's no one overpowered ability - just lots and lots of really good abilities. It's a common problem with homebrew, I've run afoul of it myself. It's really difficult to bring yourself to write something weak, and you don't want to have dead levels, but the class as a whole ends up way too strong.

If you look at the official classes, you'll notice they all have things that are really niche or just not that useful.

From a player's point of view, it's always disappointing when you level up and get something you don't really care about, but not every level can be awesome.

Ideally, you make those weak things really cool, so even if they're useless people still get excited about them, but that's quite difficult to do.

Btw, please don't take any of this personally - I actually really like the class, it's some of the best 5e homebrew I've seen.

A few other oddities I noticed - chainmail is included in starting equipment, but you only get heavy armor proficiency at level 3 (if at all).

The Flesh archetype is clearly meant to be Strength-based, but doesn't get heavy armor proficiency.

When you changed the Soul archetype's blindsight into darkvision, you missed it later in the same feature.

Eidolon108

@Miniman no worries, I really appreciate all the help. Your advice is very valuable. I will probably need to scale back some invocations to make them more like ribbons.

I thought chainmail was medium? I must be mixed up.

Miniman

@Eidolon108 It's heavy, it's just weird that it's heavy. Especially since half plate is medium.

@Eidolon108 The problem with changing invocations is that unless you scale most of them back, players will just pick the strong ones and ignore the weak ones.

The Warlock doesn't suffer too much from that because the better invocations are only useful for specific builds.

(Well, except the ones that every Warlock takes.)

The problem you have is that it's difficult to make something that isn't useful for everyone playing the class.

You might want to try some invocations geared for specific fighting styles, maybe? For example, you've left Two-Weapon Fighting on the table, but it'd be a weird choice for someone playing this class, so adding an invocation or two to help with that doesn't make the class more powerful, it just enables different builds.

Anyway, I gotta go, I'll be around later. I'll see anything you attach my name to, or anything near something you attach my name to, so feel free to leave me things to look at later.

Eidolon108

05:00

@Miniman ah, it should be a chain shirt, instead of chain mail. Your point about TWF is well taken, I was considering an invocation to twin the weapon but I couldn't figure out how to make it work well. Will consider some other fighting style specific ones

BESW

> Share this stunt in 30 seconds and something wonderful will happen! You get +2 when defending against attempts to overcome your trust and optimism.

(All this talk of chain mail...)

1 hour later…

doppelgreener

06:13

> Share this good fortune doge for great luck. You get +2 to spread nice rumours with Rapport regardless of whether they're true.

2

> Fortune doge is a ponzi scheme! You get +2 to overcome when trying to prove good news wrong.

6 hours later…

BESW

11:51

**[Timely RPGery](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1nKltjD1HJ954pS3QZZL-E_ckNaKEeedxMKn7XwdFiio/edit?usp=sharing "Click for full source doc; please suggest items to pin!"):**
[BoH](https://bundleofholding.com "Buy RPGs cheap in bulk, support charities & indie designers!");
[playtest Follow](http://arsludi.lamemage.com/index.php/788/follow-needs-playtesters/ "Help playtest Ben Robbins' new game!");
[UScons](http://casualgamerevolution.com/blog/2016/01/2016-tabletop-gaming-conventions-a-comprehensive-list "List of RPG conventions in the US.");

3 hours later…

Zachiel

14:32

So I've spent half of the playing time I had today to craft a question.

This site is bad for me

1 hour later…

nitsua60

15:53

@Shalvenay hiya

@Eidolon108 Not to but in, but one thing I think it's missing: the one (or more) paragraph lead-in that describes the person who's a member of this class before getting to the mechanics. It's the "A tall human tribesman strides though a blizzard, draped in fur and hefting his axe. He laughs as he charges toward the frost giant who dared poach his people's elk herd." from the beginning of Barbarian in the PHB, for instance.

I peeked in at your homebrew and had no context, aside from the word "rune" showing up a lot.

Fibericon

16:34

In my online fate game, I made an undead sniper. I don't know how I'm going to go back to a game where I'm limited in my character design.

Shalvenay

@nitsua60 hey there, how're things going?

3 hours later…

nitsua60

19:24

@Shalvenay hiya--good. Framed a painting this morning, paid July's bills, Now working on final project for course. Last night when we got home the kids were not asleep (10pm). Not sure whether I fell asleep before or after my 3yo, but it's gotta be even odds =)

Shalvenay

@nitsua60 heheh. sadly, my school project is stalled until I can find an expert in 8051 assembler to review the listing the compiler output and figure out why in the world the code might be going haywire

@nitsua60 when would be a good time for us to talk in the NAB btw?

Zachiel

Does anyone remember, out of their minds, how that D&D 3.x mace holding a holy water vial in its head was called? I've tried googling aspersorium but to no avail.

nitsua60

@Shalvenay tonight

Shalvenay

@Zachiel aspergillum?

@nitsua60 got it

Zachiel

@Shalvenay possibly

Anaphory

19:32

I have started to listen to some RPG podcasts. The urge to shout “NO ARE FACTUALLY WRONG THERE” back at them is higher than I ever felt it for reading blog posts. Why would that be?

Zachiel

here it is, heavy aspergillum, RoF.

Thank you Shalvenay

@Anaphory because you are listening to them. So you're already in auditory mode?

Anaphory

I don't think I mean the “shout” that literally and medium-specific, but it might be.

SevenSidedDie

@Anaphory I get the same thing. I think it's the illusion of personal presence and happening at the same time. With non-chat text we are well conditioned to perceive it as a broadcast medium and as being composed in the past.

Zachiel

Plus, you might feel from their tone how strong their position is in their minds.

Skathix

So, I've been working with this "Curse" called a geis placed on two characters by Oghma, custom Content

Last night one of them decided to try "Remove Curse" I told them nothing happened so they killed themselves and are now pissed at me for Rule 0

In the end, I gave in because it's a group of friends and this is a game

In the future, how can I create shit with consequences and not have them throwing a fucking rulebook at me?

Anaphory

19:48

Hm, on various levels. I'm currently paying too much attention to the specific topic of Trust in RPG, so my first thought is to generally communicate to them implicitly and explicitly that your goal is not to dick them over, and follow through on that promise with the actions in game.

Skathix

I did that, had a conversation, told them it's not canon D&D

Eidolon108

@nitsua60 Yeah i need to add the fluffy bits if it was going to be a published thing. I was mostly concerned with getting the rules laid down so a friend could use it in the campaign I'm about to run. This one is also loosely based off of someone else's homebrew so I didn't want to just copy+paste their flavor text

Anaphory

Rules-wise, it may help to see whether there are other curses that cannot be removed simply by that spell and see how they telegraph that, and then telegraphing your custom curse in a similar manner if possible.

Show alternative ways forward – I assume the point of the geas was not like in Celtic mythological stories to lead the heros to inevitable tragedy?

So, in this case, present stories of local folklore of heros that struggled with a geas, tried to get it removed, and how it didn't work, and what worked in the end?

Make sure you are on the same expectation level of the rules to start with, so that the players know when you stick to the rules no-matter-what and when you feel forced to change them.

Skathix

I stick to the rules in combat, everything else is wobbly, this is just a butt-hurt player. There was a very clear way to remove the curse she just didn't want to

It was basically to finish the quest they were on, when she threatened to kill herself I brought up the quest to her

But she just didn't want it

I ended up revoking it and just letting her remove curse, but I feel like that was a bad decision and like it will haunt me in the future

Zachiel

20:05

@Skathix well, that's usually a symptom of "I want to play my character, not to be forced to do things"

Skathix

Well, it sounds like I was wrong. At least in a way. Though they knew what they were doing when they got the cursed placed on them

Anaphory

@Zachiel I'd normally throw the hands in the air at a statement like this, but a classical Geas is a pretty strong thing, so if it's similar and involuntary, that statement may be valid

Zachiel

Book of vile darkness has something on dying curses. Maybe it's worth taking a look, I seem to remember that casting a geas was one possibility

That would make Skathix's curse completely by-the-rules (but no any better)

Anaphory

@Skathix It does say “Yes, you can trust the book more than you could trust me in this instance”…

Skathix

Right

Anaphory

20:12

… at least from her perspective.

Skathix

The only reason I did it is because the person is having a bad time IRL, and leaving the group wouldn't do her any favors. This is the most asinine thing I've ever seen.

Regardless, this shit will now happen more

Sorry for cursing, I have no idea if that's against the rules

Anaphory

Ah, okay. Then it sounds like you want to stick, so you need to find out what she wants out of the game, what the others want, and what you want, and so how to make it all possible at the same time.

Wibbs

@Skathix It's not encouraged

Skathix

Jesus DMing needs to be on a resume

"Herded Cats"

Anaphory

@Skathix In some circumstance, I would consider it. Last time, I didn't dare – I listed RPGs as a hobby together with some others, and mentioned having been president of a student gaming society. I think the biggest problem with actually doing it is either (a) you have to know that the reader is an RPG player and knows what it means or (b) you are stuck with too much text for what it's worth, explaining the responsibilities instead of stating the term.

Wibbs

20:22

I don't think they were being serious :)

Skathix

Lol, I wasn't, but it's better than the rest of this bloody mess

For the record, are there any curses that aren't removable by remove curse?

nitsua60

@Eidolon108 It just made it hard to jump into with no reference. If you and Miniman'd been chatting about it previously, probably not a problem for him. But coming to it cold (as a lurker) it took a bit to wrap my head around.

Eidolon108

@nitsua60 good point, I will add an intro since i'm probably going to continue posting revisions for another week or two

Anaphory

@Wibbs I assumed. But (a) my default thing when not having a witty response to a witty truism is to instead state the long truth. And (b) see (a).

Wibbs

:p

nitsua60

20:29

@Skathix you could always throw in the one-liner of "volunteer crisis counselor, 4-hr shift once-weekly" and wait for the question to come =)

Skathix

Lmao

Zachiel

@Skathix Anyway, you have a time-limited chance of editing your chat posts. Hover your mouse over the post, click on the golden box with a down-pointing white triangle, click edit.

Anaphory

@nitsua60 When I saw the edit adding a number my first read was “volunteer crisis counselor +4”

Zachiel

@Anaphory Skills raising everywhere

nitsua60

Let's see, regular GMing (+1), advisor to a HS club (+1), head of a girls' dorm (+1), toddler at home (+1)? Sounds about right =)

Anaphory

20:35

Maybe we should just submit our character sheets instead of resumes?

nitsua60

@Skathix Euryale from the Deck of many things. "Only a god or the magic of The Fates card can end this curse." (DMG 164)

Skathix

DARNIT

If I had known about that this whole conversation would have been moot

nitsua60

Potion miscibility table gives some effects that can't be removed thusly (DMG 140)

Skathix

What if the curse were placed on you by a god

I.E. Oghma

Or E.G. Oghma

Anaphory

… is there a reward for sticking with a geas?

Skathix

20:38

Would it be feasible at that point that you wouldn't be able to dispell it?

Well, in my head turning into a half-dragon was a reward

Anaphory

@Skathix Ah. Was that something any affected players were actively going for?

Skathix

No, thus the quest to remove the curse

Zachiel

Wait. Were you offering the template for free, or complete with its level adjustment?

I mean, there might be players who value the comeliness of their character way more than their strenght or a cool story. I have played with one once.

Anaphory

Oh. So, add to your list of things to do “Don't second-guess my players what they might want for their characters, ask them instead and see what they find cool in play (because people are bad at expressing what they want when asked)”?

Zachiel

But if you were adding the template with all its cons, tthat means forcing the character to go in a direction they might have not liked.

Skathix

20:41

I reassert the fact that they were aware their actions would curse them

nitsua60

@Skathix I feel like curses and getting rid of curses have always been in a bit of an arms race. I think it's because most curses either feel like a crappy luck that unbalances the party, or like a really heavy GM hand on the player's shoulder.

Skathix

But yea

I agree

I won't be using them in the future

Anaphory

@Skathix Was turning into a half-dragon the curse, or the reward for sticking with the curse until the end of the quest?

Skathix

The curse

The reward was the conclusion of her character's story, or at least a step in that direction

Zachiel

@Skathix uhm... then it might have been a case of mixed perceptions. "If you do that you will get cursed". Player thinks: ok, a curse. One spell will be enough to get rid of it. No biggies. "Let's do this".

Skathix

20:43

Right

It's really dumb that you can't give players a hook that's detrimental to their character without a fit though

Zachiel

And then "Whaaaa-t? It isn't going away? B-but..."

nitsua60

@Skathix It's about them choosing it.

Giving a hook and setting a hook (a la fishing) are very different things.

Shalvenay

@nitsua60 yes....

nitsua60

The only curses I've been consistently happy with were ones that (a) the players knew about full-well going in, (b) were acoompanied by something they wanted/needed, (c) chose to lower their head and take on.

Finding out that dispel curse doesn't dispel this curse could well feel like "ahh... I got a nibble.. wait for it... [YANK] Got 'em!"

But I'm not at your table--only they/you know for sure =)

Anaphory

I do like the fact that the LRP I play has no universal way of getting rid of curses, and specific ways with a serious alternative cost for most curses, and no way for some particularly high-power or low-effect ones.

@nitsua60 (It's strongly political, and curses are a valid political instrument, so it does not devalue your three points.)

nitsua60

20:52

"LRP"?

Anaphory

Live Role Play.

nitsua60

Okay---same as LARP? Or is there a distinction to be drawn?

Anaphory

No idea why without A, it does have action, but for some reason it's branded thus.

nitsua60

mkay

BESW

@Skathix D&D presents itself, for better or worse, as a binary antagonistic relationship between players and GM: the job of the GM is to create obstacles, and the job of the players is to remove those obstacles. Breaking out of that paradigm is very possible, but very messy and requires a lot of deliberate out-of-game collaboration.

So, yeah, the nature of the game you're playing means the default response to "something is impeding my character" will always be "I must remove this impediment as efficiently as possible!"

You've got an uphill struggle against the implicit assumptions of the system.

(The most successful curse I ever managed gave the PC to thief-related skills, and let them turn sneak attacks into gems. Both abilities got better as the disease progressed, without limit, but also imposed proportional penalties to all non-thief-related skills.)

nitsua60

20:59

Which, if I'm reading *Playing at the World* correctly, has a lot to do with a quirk of geography: EGG wanted Arneson to show off Blackmoor to the Lake Geneva crowd, but only Arneson (not the whole Twin Cities group) could make the trip.
So DA goes up and has to referee *and* play all the antagonistic roles "against" the Lake Genevans; in the Twin Cities he'd solely been refereeing (a la wargaming norms), while players played both the "adventurers" and "big baddies" in the dungeons.
Thus was born the GM's dual role of referee and antagonist.

BESW

(It was pretty easy to get rid of the curse; I knew my player well enough to build the curse so the hardest part would be deciding to get rid of it.)

@nitsua60 Interesting.

Shalvenay

@nitsua60 -- now a better time to talk in the NAB btw?

nitsua60

I've got 20 min or so before having to make dinner...

Shalvenay

@nitsua60 ah, after dinner then I think

nitsua60

@Shalvenay mkay.

Zachiel

21:04

I'm tempted to run a play by forum of fourthcore, but I worry about getting tired of the whole PbF mechanic halfway

(I'm great at non sequiturs, isn't it?)

Anaphory

@Zachiel Here, I do them all the time.

The danger is just that they get lost.

2 hours later…

Miniman

23:18

@Skathix Having been in this exact situation on both sides of the table, it's worth considering: As the DM, you have control over literally everything, with the single exception being the players' characters. And, let's face it, the game gives you the tools to exert your control over the PCs too. That means that anything you do that a player feels takes control of their character away is a seriously big deal. Even giving them free stuff.

As a player, I was playing in a campaign where wild magic was slowly mutating our characters: The druid was slowly turning into a plant, the wizard was slowly turning into an elemental, and so on. And even though these were purely beneficial changes to our characters, I think we all resented them. I realised at the time that I was being irrational, but I still resented it.

doppelgreener

23:30

Quit annoying your neighbors by using their "phones." They do not like to refuse but they complain to Mrs. Baker at the Telephone Co. KY1897

Tweeted by TweetsofOld on June 26, 2016 at 6:12 PM

(unrelated to anything)

BESW

@Miniman Absolutely. It's about subjective perception and agency more than it can ever be about what's objectively good or bad.

(Once again, fundamentally social problems can't be solved with mechanics.)

Shalvenay

23:46

hey again @nitsua60

BESW

Hmm. I think the reason the thief-curse I designed worked as well as it did was that (a) the player could remove it any time he chose and (b) I had no investment in him keeping or losing the curse.

doppelgreener

@Miniman I would resent that. Sure sounds like a cool idea from the GM's perspective, but as a player I'd really just be thinking "um no I just want to play a normal druid please." (Citation: I have had something like this proposed to me. I worked out something completely different with the GM that I would actually be happy with - a progression from Pathfinder's Hunter druid/ranger hybrid class to full Druid.)

BESW

I was just interested in seeing what he'd choose to do.

nitsua60

@Shalvenay hiya

Shalvenay

@nitsua60 how're things going? dinner done on your end?

nitsua60

23:52

@Shalvenay yup

doppelgreener

Hey internet folks, I have a question unrelated to RPGs but I just need some smart people and that is you.

nitsua60

fire away? [not presuming to speak for the smart folks...]

doppelgreener

The other night I got a pretty bad headache that eventually had me feeling nauseous, had to shut my eyes and rest while I was on the couch watching a movie with housemates. Eventually noticed the bright light down the hallway actually hurt to look at, and I felt a lot better once my housemates dimmed the lights for me.

Miniman

@nitsua60 It's so weird that they didn't provide sheep stats. One more bit of evidence that very little actual design went into the Wild Mage.

doppelgreener

Was this a migraine, or just "a headache"?

nitsua60

23:56

@doppelgreener hmm... I'll ask my migraine-prone partner when she's out of the shower.

doppelgreener

@nitsua60 thanks. not sure if it's just a thing that light sensitive headaches happen and whatnot, or if I should consider that I might be someone capable of having migraines.

nitsua60

@doppelgreener Two things I know: if sensory... disturbances preceded it or if caffeine tended to help it, those would both point toward migraine.

BESW

"Migraine" is like "pitbull" or "the Doctor:" A label for otherwise largely unrelated things which have some but not all of a loose collection of characteristics, none of which is necessary or sufficient but if you get enough of them together in one thing you can give the thing that label.

nitsua60

"Pitbull or The Doctor" would be a good name for a 200-word RPG.

2

BESW

My migraine symptoms: first, a tingling numbness on one side of the tongue, slowly spreading down that side of my body. Then a growing blank spot in my vision. Then deep ice-pick pain in one or both temples. Sometimes, pain behind my eyes. Light doesn't really affect me, though.

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