TRPG General Chat

doppelgreener

00:08

First Draft of Royland Blackstar is complete. He has a guitar & amp he uses to energise people and fire lasers, he can summon the Dragon of Rock rarely and sometimes tap into his abilities, he can float (think Todd Ingram, the Vegan from Scott Pilgrim), and berates people with music.

(@BESW We'll be turning our attention to a Field Commander Baker tonight and tomorrow.)

BESW

@doppelgreener Sweet. Will he be ARRPG or Umdaar?

(I talked with Dan and told him my concerns, but if you guys want to tackle it that's fine.)

doppelgreener

@BESW Have not decided, all creative juices have been flowing Royland-wards. I'm inclined to either do ARRPG or something in the middle: Umdaar but at ARRPG power levels.

BESW

Yeah, definitely if you're using Umdaar mechanics, hit ARRPG power levels.

(I'd be interested to see what you decide that means.)

Tijnkwan

00:39

hey guys

BESW

[wave]

doppelgreener

(also @pixie @trogdor ping for Royland just above)

@BESW Could I have wording assistance for a moment regarding Royland?

BESW

@doppelgreener What's up?

Miniman

@doppelgreener Todd Ingram with the Katayanagi Twins' ability on top?

doppelgreener

@Miniman Yes.

Miniman

00:42

@doppelgreener Nice.

doppelgreener

@BESW Royland has 0 ability to deceive. He is not simply not good, he's terrible at it. He's a musician, and he can only speak what's true to his heart. We were giggling over scenarios where in disguise, he'd either totally over-act from getting so into it, or pull out his guitar while under cover as an ordinary tourist, shred a sick riff, and blow the disguise completely.

Right now his Omega aspect is intended for those compels, but I'm wondering if there is some better way to write it. I'd use "ostentatiously true to himself" instead of "die-hardedly true to himself", but ostentatiousness is about trying to impress people. Royland does nothing to impress people, he does it for himself - he just impresses people in the process.

BESW

> This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.

doppelgreener

@BESW "To thine own self be true!" may make a pretty good Omega aspect, actually.

BESW

I've Gotta Be Me works too.

Tijnkwan

I have a question about the dnd universe, the dnd 4e version to be precise. Yesterday I was building a character in the dnd 4e builder and I saw this Crownring of Tchazzar, it is a headpiece with several powers, where one of them conjures a abishai vestige, and lets me fly, does anyone know what a abishai vestige is?

BESW

00:59

Hmm. If we search on the Compendium we find that item comes from Dragon 178.

I don't have an account anymore, but it sounds like you do, so you could look it up in that magazine.

Tijnkwan

ok i will try and find it

BESW

My guess, however, from what I remember about how vestiges work (never actually used one), is that "abishai vestige" is just the name of the fly-and-use-a-power effect it describes.

Tijnkwan

it is dungeon megazine 178 :P

BESW

Good catch. I'm kinda multitasking.

Tijnkwan

but the link is broken, and on the page of the issue there is a blank spot where the issue and download button should be

BESW

01:05

Aw.

Tijnkwan

and i ahve only downloaded 155 till 166 :(

doppelgreener

@Tijnkwan Could you paste the effect's wording?

Tijnkwan

sure 1 sec

Miniman

@Tijnkwan At least in 3.5, a vestige was a fragment of power from an extremely powerful being.

Tijnkwan

Power:daily (standard action)
You conjure an abishai vestige, which lasts until the end of the encounter. the vestige allows you to fly with a speed of 8, and it also allows you to use the following at-will power.
Power (immediate Interrupt)
Trigger: an adjacent enemy shifts.
Effect: targets triggering creature; Wisdom vs Reflex; 2d10+Charisma modifier fire damage, and you shift 1 square.

"flavor" of the item: A simple mithral circlet engraved with Iokharic runes reads: "Through worship ascended, by fire consumed, a god-king is reborn".

Miniman

01:11

Quick Googling suggests that in a D&D context abishai are medium-power devils.

Tijnkwan

ok cool, and I already googled the meaning of vestige :P

thx

Miniman

No problem. Use with caution, though; both of those seem to be based on 3.5, so the meaning of both/either might have changed in 4e.

Tijnkwan

I got a pretty epic lvl 14 pyromancer wizard atm with several ways to change into a fire demon and burn everything in sight

doppelgreener

@Tijnkwan Sounds like BESW's on the money. The Abishai Vestige is just some magical thing you conjure up that grants you the ability to fly and use a power.

The game is probably leaving you to figure out what that looks like yourself because it's not an important blank for them to fill in. The Magazine might have an illustration of what one artist thinks it might look like, but it might not.

Tijnkwan

yeah i need to contact my dm and ask him for the meagazine, i downloaded them all but I no longer have the same pc :(

doppelgreener

01:23

Overall 4e's attitude to lore, in case you're unaware, is to leave you plenty of room to make it up yourself. The books rarely give concrete answers to big questions about potentially plot-critical parts of the lore - instead the authors preferred to express possibilities, rumours, the beliefs of various people, and tended to make a point of making sure at least a couple of them contradicted each other completely.

Its attitude about powers and items is to let you flavour them as you like, as well, replacing the flavour text entirely if you'd prefer.

So I suggest you come up with something appropriately awesome-sounding.

(hence the absolute separation between the flavour text, and the lines about mechanical effect.)

Tijnkwan

Yeah i will most likely use it in combination with a polymorph power into a diabolic brute or a "humanoid creature of fire and ash"

doppelgreener

Sounds pretty cool. 8)

Tijnkwan

01:59

anyway thx, i am going to bed now, it's 4 am :D

trogdor

03:05

@doppelgreener nice

nitsua60

03:27

alright, friends, I've entered the [tool-rec] fracas: meta.rpg.stackexchange.com/q/5879/23970

Miniman

@nitsua60 Your answer sums up my feelings on the matter reasonably well.

DuckTapeAl

@nitsua60 Yeah, that was pretty much my exact thought when I was confused about the whole thing last week.

nitsua60

thanks

definitely some trepidation before hitting "Post"

DuckTapeAl

The only thing that you don't mention, which might not even help your answer that much, is that tool-rec is probably a meta-tag, since it describes the answers, rather than the question.

The Oracle

03:43

1

Q: Policy Proposal: Allow Tool-Recommendation Questions

[Headnote: in a few places I think linked examples would be nice, but I can neither think of nor find good ones. These are indicated by a "()" after a phrase. Please feel free to plug one in if you think of it. Thanks.] The State of Tool-Recommendation Many questions come to us which presume th...

discussion

nitsua60

whoa--what was that? (The Oracle's entry)

Magician

@nitsua60 It automatically links meta posts (with some delay).

DuckTapeAl

Main site gets posted to teh feed in the top left, meta goes into chat directly.

nitsua60

Oh, so it was rather gauche of me to come and sound the horn for it =/

thanks

@DuckTapeAl I don't understand tags well enough to dip a toe into that

DuckTapeAl

Fair enough.

I wouldn't say it was gauche.

nitsua60

03:46

I keep getting tripped up over what people mean when they roll-back my tag edits: "tags are for what a question is, not what it's about."

Or "tags are for what a question's about, not what it contains."

Or "the red zone's for loading and unloading only"

4

DuckTapeAl

Got an example handy? I could probably try to explain it more thoroughly, if you'd like.

nitsua60

7

Q: Should there be race-specific tags?

I think I created the [Half-Orc] tag today when asking Does the half orc's Savage Attack work when wild shaped? It made sense to me to tag it, as it's a feature unique to the Half Orc+Druid combination. 'If I'm going to tag it Druid, why wouldn't I tag it Half-Orc?' I thought. A few moments late...

discussion tags

miniman's answer makes sense, but I'm not sure I've internalized it yet

wow--that's assertive

DuckTapeAl

Ah, I see.

nitsua60

(the huge question pop-up, I mean)

DuckTapeAl

Yeah, that's sort of close to the edge of the tagging system.

Protip: If you post a link to any question on the site in chat, and your chat message only contains the link, it will show up like that. It's super convenient.

I can see your confusion with the Savage Attack thing. It does feel sort of arbitrary.

Because if it would "be exactly the same questions if elves, dwarves, or any other race had those features instead of half-orcs", then the same is true for Wild Shape and [druid].

nitsua60

03:54

exactly

no big deal, though

I've been fairly conservative in tagging-behavior recently, and some day I'll get back into that fray

heading off to bed. Night, all.

DuckTapeAl

Night!

Miniman

@nitsua60 Oops, I missed it. But I still feel compelled to point out that I'm still a fairly new user, and my answer to any meta question is in no way definitive.

The Oracle

04:43

0

Q: Are tool recommendations on topic?

Recommendations for games and published adventures are now off topic due to our policy on them being rescinded. The general agreement was that we did have functioning rules for them, but enough users were intentionally disobeying them that the effort of enforcing them was no longer balanced by th...

discussion tools

doppelgreener

@BESW The RPG stuff says the forums go dark on 20 OCT, the newspost says 29 OCT though. (Might've gotten edited.)

ok, no, it was the 29th all along

BESW

05:27

I haven't looked at the link at all, I just copied whatever I was told in chat.

**RPG stuff:** [WOTC FORUMS GO DARK 29 OCT](http://community.wizards.com/forum/community-business/threads/4255901 "so grab anything you want to preserve before it's gone!"); [Bundle of Holding](http://bundleofholding.com "buy RPGs cheap in bulk, support charities & indie designers!");
[Masks: A New Generation](https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1277034820/masks-a-new-generation "young superheroes powered by the Apocalypse");
[K&T ep7: Celestial Boogaloo](http://drivethrurpg.com/product/162550/Katanas--Trenchcoats-Episode-7-Celestial-Boogaloo "Think of Celestial Boogaloo as the Book of Lev…

BESW

05:47

Hey, chat. I need an Umdaar villain. Something that'd be comfortable in an over-the-top 80s/90s kids show like He-Man, Thundercats, or Power Rangers.

Adeptus

06:00

Obvious inspirations would be the villains from those shows - Skeletor, Mumm-Ra, or... whatever the Power Rangers fought... never got into that one

So, two of those are undead-ish things - a skeleton (or, skull-with-a-body) and a mummy

user61230

Hello!

Tashio

Hey

user61230

How goes it?

Tashio

Not to bad, Friday at least.

user61230

Still Thursday here, unfortunately.

doppelgreener

06:08

@Emrakul Australia's been getting this Friday primed just right for you for about 16 hours now, so at least it's going to be good.

doppelgreener

06:20

@BESW A cyborg wolf who wants to unlock the ancient technology to control the world's water supplies.

user61230

@doppelgreener Ooooh. I'm curious what all of Australia has in store for me!

BESW

@Emrakul [dun-dun-dunnn]

doppelgreener

Alas I don't have the Masters of Umdaar book here present...

[digs it up from DTRPG]

@BESW Is there a page in Masters of Umdaar that describes what Master Concepts should be like?

BESW

Page 43 gives general Mastery advice.

user61230

dun-dun-dunnn

doppelgreener

06:36

@BESW I will get you to walk me through genesis of a Masters of Umdaar PC tonight. For fun, for practice, for me figuring out what Master we might have.

BESW

I think you're under the impression that it's more structured than it actually is.

trogdor

@doppelgreener you roll a bunch of dice for random results

doppelgreener

I've seen you generating PCs.

trogdor

XD

doppelgreener

I'm not under impressions, I just want to make one.

BESW

06:38

Fair enough.

@Wazzymandias Hi!

BESW

07:41

@nitsua60 Tagging is kinda weird.

BESW

08:05

The "trick" to tags is twofold: First, tags are an "emergent folksonomy," meaning we let them grow wild and spontaneously. We only moderate them when a problem happens (not in anticipation of a future problem), and we never create tags that aren't needed yet but might be needed later.

Second, tags are for guiding experts to questions and searches to answers. If a tag isn't going to help someone find their area of expertise, or an answer to their problem, it's unnecessary (and creates a problem by clogging up the system, so gets moderated away).

Derpy

08:31

Morning

I was noticing... Any news about @IronHeart?

Usually he is shown online all the time, but has lately disappeared.

BESW

08:47

When that happens, I imagine all the wonderful exciting things they're doing which keep them too busy for chatting.

user61230

@Derpy Last seen two days ago. They're almost probably safe, but just busy doing awesome things (or exploding).

Derpy

09:01

@BESW probable, I was just wondering if he said something about this. Seem to be an user that has a permanent active connection on the chat, so he has at least closed up his client. Maybe some house refactoring like I had to.

BESW

09:17

His attendance comes in cycles.

Derpy

Good to know, thanks

BESW

Say; Hello Spaceman: a blog about spacesuits in film.

BESW

10:02

Dear 1987: I know it's rough to get skull makeup that looks good and still allows the actor to be expressive, but it's really hard to take Skeletor seriously when he's got lip-teeth with a second set of fanged teeth underneath.

But then, Skeletor's not too bad-looking when I'm distracted by Blade's "I was going to cosplay as an elf but all I had were knives so I gave up after making one ear" look.

...and now there's a hair band wookie covered in tinsel. This is awesome.

doppelgreener

10:32

@BESW you gotta show us a picture of this one too

BESW

Hmm. Gonna have to make my own screenshot for that.

....yeah, it's too dark and blurry for a screenshot to be any good.

doppelgreener

Bother!

BESW

It's this guy. Just imagine him tangled up in silver tinsel streamers.

doppelgreener

It looks rubbish in my imagination. Is that accurate?

BESW

Yes.

doppelgreener

10:39

like as if it was from the Mighty Boosh where they actually try to make sure the costumes look a little rubbish

BESW

Wait, it's such a dark scene that I mis-identified the hairy monstrosity that got caught in the tinsel. It's this guy:

doppelgreener

Wow.

eimyr

What's happening?

Why are you sharing tacky 80s screenshots?

doppelgreener

BESW is watching Skeletons & Wookiees.

BESW

I'm watching the 1987 He-Man and the Masters of the Universe.

trogdor

10:40

lol

Tashio

@eimyr Hey, all okay there?

eimyr

@Tashio thx!

Yeah, I'm fine. There is more stuff going on that I'd like to admit, but everyone is safe and healthy

BESW

They've also got this guy, whose character design classed the place up so much that Skeletor randomly killed him as a lesson to the others:

Tashio

Okay great

BESW

eimyr

10:42

Man, the movie is as old as I am.

BESW

(He even had an animatronic bulging throat sack.)

doppelgreener

"And that'll teach you to have a high-maintenance costume!"

eimyr

It looks horrible. Is that inspiration for your Masters of Umdaar thing?

Tashio

The helmet looks too pristine for the rest of the body

doppelgreener

@eimyr This is a movie, based on the TV show He-Man, which in turn was a direct inspiration for a game released recently called Masters of Umdaar, which BESW has been playing.

eimyr

10:44

This also gives me a Super Sentai kind of vibe.

BESW

@eimyr Not directly part of the Umdaar inspiration package, but immediately adjacent.

Tashio

The Umdaar cross ARRPG one?

BESW

Power Rangers is a bit too rooted in the mundane; main characters have ordinary lives in contemporary society.

Umdaar is a Fate Worlds setting for FAE, but I'm adding it to our campaign that mostly uses ARRPG rules.

(One of the big problems with this film is that it's spending a lot of its run-time on contemporary Earth, where the MacGuffin accidentally landed in a generic small-town romance drama film and the lead's boyfriend thinks it's a Japanese synthesiser.)

doppelgreener

Umdaar comes from He-Man, Thundercats, and other 80s cartoons that are heroic fantasies also featuring lasers and sci-fi technology.

trogdor

and strange types of people

like cat people, mummy people, energy beings

I am not racist against any of these people, I swear XD

BESW

10:59

...I'm an hour into a 105-minute movie and they just now foreshadowed a time travel plot.

Wait, no, it's not time travel. But if it's not time travel, what was that set-up from the 15-minute mark?

Silly me, thinking this thing had a coherent plot.

trogdor

yeah

I don't know why this was even your choice of inspiration

doppelgreener

Dan and I just recently watched the Mario Bros movie, which apparently had an incredible number of plot and script changes during filming that drove the actors themselves just about to the breaking point. (And, into very unhealthy and unstable mental states.)

BESW

The person with the most actual depth is the tertiary-character police officer who mostly exists to do things which force the plot to move forward when the writers can't think of a better way to do it.

trogdor

@doppelgreener I saw that as a kid

doppelgreener

The plot was stunningly incoherent, and when our housemate came in halfway through to start watching with us, and I was explaining plot from the beginning of the movie every now and then, he mostly thought I was joking and pulling his leg. Every time. As if it just couldn't also be that much sillier.

trogdor

11:06

there is no word for how disappointed I was

doppelgreener

@trogdor this sounds like the start of an evil overlord's backstory character arc

BESW

@trogdor I was watching the He-Man reboot TV show, but after the three-part opening story I decided that if it's a choice between two hours of "entertainingly awful" and 10 hours of "awfully boring," I'd rather watch the film.

trogdor

@doppelgreener this has not happened,... yet

Derpy

@trogdor @doppelgreener What Mario movie? No Mario movie was ever made

trogdor

I remember the nightmare too clearly for that

doppelgreener

11:10

@Derpy i'm sorry it was the nightmare is real

Derpy

@doppelgreener That was the Great Giana Brothers movie. Wasn't Mario related at all.

eimyr

Guys, do you think a question asking for an explanation of narrative differences between dnd editions (all of them perhaps) is on topic on RPG.SE?

I want to find out which of the versions is the most gamey, which would be nitty-gritty-realistic, which one abstracts combat the most etc.

BESW

That.... would be very very hard to ask in a way that'll get answers which can be voted on as anything other than a popularity poll.

Not impossible, mind.

And easier if you narrow it down to "compare two editions" or "which edition does X best."

eimyr

however, there are at least 5 editions I want to compare

BESW

...and of course, you'd have to be really careful with your terms.

"Gritty" and "realistic," for example, are quite different from each other. A game can be both, or one but not the other, or neither.

eimyr

11:19

4e, 5e, Pathfinder (yes, I know), AD&D and 3.5, with 3.0 tentatively left out

doppelgreener

and "nitty-gritty" is not necessarily the same as "realistic". (nitty gritty just wants detail, and can easily be unrealistic and absurd.)

eimyr

Yeah, that's true. Also, I'm more interested in what sort of narrative each of those encourage and how. I speculate that Pathfinder with its over the top abilities and detailed mechanics would encourage a different play than largely abstracted and simplified 5e

BESW

Actually, I'm not sure what "nitty-gritty" would mean in this example. It's usually used to mean the most important details, not a lot of details.

doppelgreener

@eimyr You may be misunderstanding D&D as actually having specific narrative goals, as opposed to specifically having all narrative goals and lots of mechanical goals (because of its heritage in wargaming, which is not about storytelling).

eimyr

@doppelgreener I might be misunderstanding D&D a lot, but certain mechanics emphasize different areas of play and that's what I want to discover.

doppelgreener

11:22

Part of D&D 3.5e's marketing success was in convincing people it could support all the kinds of playstyles through all kinds of mechanics.

You want espionage? We got stealth! You want diplomacy social campaigns without any fighting at all! Sure, we got you covered.

@eimyr Sure, yes, different mechanics do emphasize different areas of play, but that's not quite the same as the whole edition having a fine-tuned narrative goal toward which all its parts move.

(Dungeon World has that, Fate has that, D&D not so much)

BESW

(Skeletor just called 1987 Earth "tasteless." While riding in this.)

doppelgreener

trogdor

lol

eimyr

@doppelgreener I never assumed it's intentional or purpose built.

BESW

@eimyr Greener is saying that for most D&D editions narrative specialisation is accidental, making it hard for answers to be definitive because each edition will be internally contradictory. @doppelgreener Eimyr is looking for answers about specialisation-in-practice rather than specialisation-in-intent.

@doppelgreener The only chrome in this film is on the cars and Evil-Lyn's headpiece; the shiniest thing in the film is He-Man's oiled torso.

eimyr

11:30

BESW, the green-nilfgaardian translator. Thanks :)

@BESW any strong, female, disabled characters of color?

BESW

@eimyr Strong women of moderate agency, yes. The closest it gets to a coloured character is a sidekick that looks like a hairy melted Cheeto.

Derpy

@BESW Is that the lion from The Wizard of Oz?

BESW

@Derpy Only if he started smoking helium-laced crack.

doppelgreener

@BESW Right, ok, that's what I was getting lost in. @eimyr The question's going to be hard because of the lack of intent, and the intent to be to do as many things as possible, and there being an awful lot of games happening in enclosed rooms. We could probably get to a general level where it's basically about killing evil things and taking their loot and getting more powerful though.

Derpy

@BESW Ok, bad joke on my part.... but seriously, was that one supposed to be any actual character? I think I may recognize the one on the left... but that one...

eimyr

11:39

@doppelgreener I guess so. Magician's No such thing as DnD is a good summary of how different DnD tables can be. But if there is a drift or a trend that results from using a specific version, I'd like to explore that.

BESW

@Derpy Gwildor.

doppelgreener

@Derpy it's that guy, you know? he's... the dude with that thing. he's that one. (don't stare, it's rude, he'll feel sensitive.)

eimyr

I'm still wondering how to frame that into a question effectively. BESW suggested to limit the scope, but I'm not sure how - comparing two versions would result in question spam, seeking "best at certain quality" is difficult, as I don't know the quality in question in the first place.

BESW

(He never made it into any of the TV shows; made for the film, and later appeared in toys and comics.)

@eimyr What problem are you facing at the table that you're trying to solve? What's the challenge you're trying to overcome?

What do you want to change about your game?

eimyr

There is not game. I am pondering the possibility of running/joining an undefined DnD game at this point and selection of the system is the current discussion point.

BESW

11:42

If this is an "I'm just curious..." question, then the reason it's hard to phrase within the site's parameters is that the site doesn't handle "just curious" questions well: they tend to get sprawling and out of scope really fast when there's not a problem to solve.

@eimyr Okay, that IS a specific situation.

eimyr

The consensus was that the mechanics are irrelevant and we should choose an edition that is best for a specific narrative - whatever the narrative might be.

BESW

If you can ask a question rooted in your situation, that'll be best. Generalising it to "tell me about stuff" is misunderusimating the site's potential.

eimyr

I honestly don't think the situation is speficic enough to help in the vague question.

This is "Did anyone did this research before?" question

BESW

So, your question is either, "What are the narrative styles that D&D is best at supporting, across its editions?" or, "Which D&D edition is best at supporting this narrative style?"

Derpy

@doppelgreener must have been that dalek gun wannabe that threw me off.

BESW

11:45

Guess which one's gonna be more answerable.

eimyr

If I knew what the specific style is, I'd ask it.

BESW

@Derpy Oh, that's a musical instrument that opens magic portals. Obviously.

@eimyr I think the standard comment for this kind of situation is, "You don't know enough about your situation to ask an answerable question within the Stack format yet. Do more research, whether by talking with your group or utilising forums, so that you can ask something less broad and generic."

(Now our heroes are giving the high school musician haphazard inspirational speeches because that will get him to make up the song to take them home.)

(...and He-Man is now Skeletor's slave. Apparently the first thing Skeletor told him to do was strip to his thong. Umm. Skeletor? This is not a healthy start to a relationship.)

Derpy

@BESW Probably your point is exactly the same now, but my point was that I think I may remember the toy and the wand looked like the one on the wikia, not like that snes-superscope in the movie

BESW

Point for the film: it uses "parsec" as a unit of distance.

doppelgreener

@BESW "misunderusimating"... [adds to mental vocabulary]

BESW

12:01

Skeletor does an awesome "I am a god!" monologue.

Derpy

I am wondering if the "80' movie revival" is also going to include the Dragon Lance animated movie -_-

BESW

12:15

Huh. If it hadn't been trying so hard to be Star Wars, Masters of the Universe might have been able to be more itself.

Aaron

Good morning

eimyr

@Aaron Hello

BESW

Yawp.

Derpy

@BESW At least it was a good source of ideas for the devs working on WoW...

Miniman

So, I kinda wanna present an RPG situation and my current plan to resolve it and get opinions on it. Is that going to annoy anyone?

doppelgreener

12:19

I'm watching Hellboy: the Golden Army. I forgot how fun this mvoie was.

eimyr

I once run a Mage Ascension game with Hellboy athmosphere

BESW

@doppelgreener They've got great atmosphere.

I somehow like the animated films better overall, though.

doppelgreener

@BESW At 13:30, a bunch of guys in suits fighting a monster in the hallway. (This is exactly the situation I was talking about Baker being in.)

eimyr

I only watched the movies and read the comics and their look and feel differs a lot - understandably. I especially liked how the movies suggested the hidden world is much more than it appears on screen, while the comics were a bit more matter-of-fact

BESW

@eimyr That's kinda del Toro's stock in trade.

eimyr

12:23

Pretty much.

Derpy

@Miniman not annoyed but I fear I can't really be of help.

Miniman

@Derpy It's mostly a narrative problem, if that helps.

BESW

@doppelgreener Were you going to want to be part of the Master design?

BESW

12:52

@doppelgreener [Doppelpoke]

doppelgreener

@BESW Oh! Um. Sort of! I find myself caught up in something else at the moment.

BESW

@EBGreen Hi!

EBGreen

Ahoy hoy

Derpy

wait.... did we just forgot Miniman question?

Miniman

@Derpy It's cool. I didn't figure there'd be a lot of interest, that's why I checked.

eimyr

12:58

@miniman can you please link to the transcript?

Miniman

40 mins ago, by Miniman

So, I kinda wanna present an RPG situation and my current plan to resolve it and get opinions on it. Is that going to annoy anyone?

I didn't actually go ahead with it.

Derpy

@Miniman Nope, the users here are kinder than that. They just happen to be blind too ^_^

eimyr

Oh. I thought you did way back. Go ahead, I'd like to help.

Miniman

Ok, here goes:

BESW

→ 17 messages moved to Not a bar, but plays one on TV

Miniman

13:00

My players got themelves into a REALLY tough fight, well before they were ready for it.

BESW

→ 1 message moved to Not a bar, but plays one on TV

Miniman

They did really well, tanked it amazingly and did a really nice tactical retreat.

But one character died to a spiteful fireball as her unconscious body was being hauled by the barbarian.

The group is really invested in getting her resurrected.

BESW

@doppelgreener Then I'll just ask this: Which would you rather face as a villain? Thing One, or Thing Two?

Miniman

I've talked to the player, and she really likes her character (in the proper sense of the word character), and would rather keep playing that character.

doppelgreener

@BESW I... wow. Do I have to choose? You should do both. That second one's what they look like before they do their big "SURPRISE I'M A BIRD" reveal.

Miniman

13:04

But she's not really enjoying her character in the D&D sense of the word character, and would quite like to try something different.

doppelgreener

If not both: bird!

@Miniman What's going on there exactly?

Miniman

So, I'm heading towards making a reincarnate available rather than a resurrection, and giving her a new race and class of her choosing. (Which is well outside the normal purview of reincarnate, but I'm not fussed about that.)

@doppelgreener She's playing a Bard, and really likes the concept, but is finding the implementation a little lackluster.

BESW

Ask Lovecraft on cosmic flautists.

Miniman

She's played a Cleric in a previous game, and is playing a Monk in a concurrent game, and has come to realise that she actually prefers having limited options and doesn't really like being a full caster.

eimyr

@Miniman Yeah, that all sounds reasonable. Are the other players OK with the idea?

Miniman

13:07

@eimyr I haven't presented it to them yet, but I can't imagine them not being.

I was thinking of saying something along the lines of "We have this idea which we think will be cool, do you want to know about it or be surprised?"

Where it becomes problematic for me is actually presenting it within the story.

They're making a beeline for Waterdeep, where it would be difficult to justify resurrection being unavailable.

BESW

I offer you the use of Gypsy Jack.

Miniman

@BESW That's sort of what I was thinking, intercepting them along the way with the reincarnate-caster.

But I suspect that, given the option of bringing her back as something else, they'll want to respect her character's wishes and bring her back as herself.

BESW

Séance!

Derpy

@Miniman Ok, do you by chance know the character Fiora from Xenoblade or even just have read Full Metal Alchemist?

Miniman

@Derpy Xenoblade no, FMA yes.

@BESW Ooh, good call. They can totally do that.

BESW

13:21

Actually.... resurrection usually requires the soul's permission to work. You could turn this thing into a small quest.

They get to Waterdeep, have resurrection cast... and it fails. Sorry, here's your refund.

Then they have to figure out what's wrong and why.

Miniman

@BESW I was sort of planning on that either way; the sort of people who can cast this kind of spell aren't really interested in money, from my perspective.

Derpy

@Miniman you know how at the start of the anime one of the two brothers lose an arm (and leg) and the other... is stuck begin a living armor? What about that?

Aaron

Fullmetal alchemist

Derpy

You could have it so that the body is damaged to a point it need to be somehow repaired to be given life again

BESW

Anyway, I'mo go nappybyenight. ttfn

Miniman

13:24

@BESW Thx for input, cya!

Derpy

an artificial, magical made arm would both work as a way to have her lose her ability to play instruments and give her some way to tap into other magic sources.

Miniman

@Derpy Actually, I really like that idea - she's a bird who died to a fireball, so it's totally legit for her body to be too damaged to be brought back to life. Reincarnate creates a new body, so that's a really nice justification for requiring it instead of one of the more straightforward methods of resurrection.

Derpy

@Miniman You could work something up from here. I don't know how a "nice, you lost your arm but now you have a runic sword made of light in its place" work in your settings, but it could give you a way to both justify a character class change and some levels-loss too if appropiate (after all, you are now learning a completely different way of using your body and capabilities)

Miniman

@Derpy I don't really want to do level-loss; it makes things difficult for her, me, and everyone in the party, and inflicting that kind of long-term problem feels too much like a punishment.

Justifying class change is definitely going to be tricky, but I think I'll wait to work on that until she decides what she wants to be next.

Aaron

@Miniman what system do you use?

Miniman

13:34

@Aaron D&D 5e.

Derpy

@Miniman ... that was my next question ^_^, the new class part

Aaron

hmmm. I am not sure if you want to/can use it but I made a system for artificial limbs for pathfinder. It would probably be easy to convert if you are interested

Derpy

@Miniman I never meant it to be something inflicted. I was suggesting to explore if it may be something wanted - either because plot or because it would help her adapting to the new class.

Let me elaborate..

Miniman

@Aaron Thanks, but she definitely isn't a player who enjoys complication, so I'll keep things as simple as possible, I think.

Aaron

ok

eimyr

13:40

@Miniman so what is the problem here? I find everything you say very reasonable.

Miniman

@eimyr Glad to hear that! A lot of what I've said has been worked out as I went, with help from others. It looked more like a problem when I started.

Derpy

@Miniman Suppose for a moment that she settles for a warrior class. Even if she now has a "weapon arm" because the one who was going to rebuild it though an arm needed to be made from some random mineral he found in an unholy crypt, it doesn't mean that she is now capable to control it like she would. If she is fine with it, you could cripple away some of the abilities she would have as a warrior of her level and give them slowly back as the story goes on (and she learns her new character).

Miniman

@Derpy Ah, I see what you mean. Presenting a whole character at once could definitely be a little overwhelming.

EBGreen

That get's the other players invested in her story as well since they would have to pick up the slack as she ramps back up in her abilities.

very clever

Derpy

@EBGreen That was the idea too. In a single move it would:

a) avoid other players thinking "she had it too easy" (that may be a minor problem, especially if the group is close friends)
b) avoid giving her too many options too early
c) give in for some plot ideas
d) avoid the "how can she be a lev 10 mage in a day" question.

eimyr

13:56

Interesting.

How about a reincarnation that is incomplete or requires time to settle?

I;m thinking of a situation where she does not have a clear idea about the class/race she wants to play

Miniman

@eimyr I don't think that's the case here, especially with 2 weeks to decide.

eimyr

You could potentially reincarnate her into a new body (race) and let her assume she is still a bard (in character) while giving her terrible voice, thick, awkward fingers and no affinity for sorcerer magic

Then she could roleplay how she abandons the old ways but finds some new affinities.

Derpy

@eimyr another idea too.

eimyr

@Miniman She could say "Oh, I want to play a Barbarian, but a Ranger looks nice too... can I try them both a bit?"

Derpy

I personally like the "damaged body" more than the "replaced body" route because that way should allow the character to still fell she is herself more than having her in a whole new body with just the same "mind" but both routes have their merits.

eimyr

14:01

Me too.

I just like the idea of "Curses, I can't sing anymore!"

Derpy

@eimyr That was why I suggested the arm damage.

Miniman

@Derpy I like the idea of it, but I'm not sure how well it would go in play.

Derpy

In some settings, having a mage character using magic thru singing would be very appropriate (think about Death Gate sartan race)

eimyr

Though she would likely prefer a non-caster.

Derpy

That's why I was hoping for some info about the new class :P

eimyr

14:06

Maybe Miniman will let us know when she makes a decision?

Derpy

That could surely help devise a story that is more suited to the character she wants to play.

Miniman

@eimyr Yep, I'll definitely be looking for more advice when I know a little more.

eimyr

I guess some transitions could be done more easily than others, e.g. to a Rogue, Sorcerer or Ranger.

What alignment is she?

Miniman

Chaotic Neutral.

She's a somewhat narcissitic performer obsessed with fame.

Derpy

@eimyr The one that worry me most are transition to classes which powers are based on mindsets, like a paladin or a cleric.

I have some ideas on how you could handle that too, but it is a bit too elaborate

One very weird idea one could go for is that the materials use to repair her body (or the new body if you go for a full change) were actually magical in some way and now have a will on their own (first one who says "nice, Venom in D&D" gets no cupcakes for a month).

Maybe they though that that old dusty armor glove was a good replacement for a lost hand, but the glove was one of a ancient cleric and it's still linked to whatever entity you may need as a justification for newfound powers

eimyr

14:30

Huh.

Derpy

Yes, I know, it would work better for an evil entity than a good one.

I had actually something like the Souledge in mind

But you know... it may be a good idea to explore in some other game/story.

Imagine a rebuild character like Darth Vader mixed with a "parasitic armor"

eimyr

14:44

No no no, it would work awesomely for a good entity.

e.g. the character is a carefree bon vivant

but the god is, say, Tyr or Lathander

That's a great premise for a character - I would definitely go with it

Derpy

@eimyr what I meant is that for an evil entity you would get a lot easier on the part about "why should I give my power/miracles to this chaotic moron" (no offense intended to the character obviously) since it would just be "bribe this little insect in doing my binding with power"

eimyr

@Derpy "This is a disgrace! My holy [whatever] joined to a snotty little brat?! This shall not stand! I vow by my divine honor to teach this despicable roach righteousness!"

Derpy

@eimyr I just read this one in Rarity voice. And I like the idea a lot.

Teaching By Whining

eimyr

Do it in Iron Will voice and you'll se where I come from.

Derpy

15:01

@eimyr Nope, Rarity is better. I could already see the horrified god whine as the character steals some coin from a small box in a church "How uncouth of thee! Put that money back now!"

Sandwich

Agree

Rarity is best pony

Derpy

15:17

Actually, it is just that it would be a lot funnier having the god constantly remarking how rude and uncouth the character is.

Even better if you somehow change it and use the soul of a paladine instead than the actual god behind him.

this one would allow even more fun, with the ghost paladin remarking how undignified are the character table manners and such...

eimyr

I want to play a paladin now.

A gritty, dark crusader.

The kind of unfettered guy who would kill his own battle brother on the spot, if said warrior committed a crime.

Aaron

15:47

@BESW for the pinned post of goodies kickstarter.com/projects/350683997/…

Pixie

17:01

I like the Mario movie. It is doing its own thing, so terribly that it's not just any old normal failed video game film. It's on its own plane entirely. That has a certain... charm.

Aaron

@Pixie I liked it as well