TRPG General Chat

12:19 AM

@trogdor The first Evil Hat adventure setting is a "superheroes are made by corporations and corporations control everything" near-future dystopia.

...is it just me, or is "near-future dystopia" seriously overrepresented by contemporary RPG settings?

[adds dystopia to tablet auto-complete]

wax eagle

@BESW yes

BESW

[add Rassilon to auto complete]

3

BESW

12:57 AM

@aaron Janelle Monae (Many Moons, Tightrope), Chameleon Circuit (Type 40, Mr Pond, Blink), Blind Guardian (And Then There Was Silence, Mirror Mirror, Time Stands Still).

Wooden Toaster (Rainbow Factory), Living Tombstone (Discord), Ponyphonic (The Moon Rises, Lullaby for the Princess).

Loreena McKennitt (The Highwayman, The Mummer's Dance), any and every version/cover of iamnotacleverpony's For the New Lunar Republic.

C. Ross

@BESW yes, and I think there's a reason for that ...

BESW

Oh?

Alex P

@BESW Sounds like Deus Ex, sorta.

BESW

1:12 AM

Star One (Perfect Survivor).

Alex P

@C.Ross Is it because it feels like everything's gonna go to crap, due to current trends?

BESW

...I have 25GB of music. I'll stop now.

Lord_Gareth

Maybe you should yes.

Hey guys, have I pimped GenCrawl at ya'll yet?

It's the bastard love child of a Roguelike RPG and a webcomic.

BESW

Sound vaguely familiar.

But since I have no love for RLs, it wouldn't make a big impression.

Lord_Gareth

Here, I'll link to the first page

And when you get to the latest update you can leave commands in the comments!

wildwestscifi.net/gencrawlgaiden/10117

BESW

1:21 AM

Sorry, I am unenthused. Sounds like a nifty idea, but holds no shine for me.

@joshua I like your idea and would be interested in hearing more specifics about how it would work. But for the question I want tested strategies.

Alex P

2:14 AM

I did actually finish Ultra Business Tycoon III yesterday, btw, it just took me forever. It was very poignant; I could tell where it was going from a ways away but the ending was still rather shocking and powerful in its delivery.

BESW

Tweets to Campaign By reminds you that the overconfident are lizardmen or robots, or both.

Talking too much is a sign of insecurity. So is keeping too quiet. So is breathing and having been born a human.

Tweeted by NightValeRadio on January 10, 2014 at 11:56 PM

doppelgreener

@BESW fictional horror radio show states something pretty super true and insightful about people

BESW

It's a common truth that the most bald-faced truths are couched in allegory.

Alex P

2:50 AM

This is a quality manifesto.

> It costs a couple of keystrokes to control someone else’s brain for a second, and longer if you do it right.

> When it comes to feeling something true, a handful of words can outweigh millions of dollars of investment in cutting-edge graphics.

doppelgreener

3:06 AM

we have a video game question, flags plees

Metool

I like how the flag prompt can suggest it go to, say, Arqade.

doppelgreener

yeah it can't really but he'll find that out

[bangs pots and pans and runs around @BESW and @AlexP and @waxeagle]

Alex P

@JonathanHobbs Got it already.

doppelgreener

yay :D

Metool

I see no comments...

doppelgreener

3:13 AM

@Metool don't need to leave any; the flag prompt itself will say enough

Metool

ah, I see

BESW

VTC'd.

doppelgreener

actually I'm gonna leave a comment on it

Alex P

King Edward III, LARPer.

(Although also, srsly, that is just what you do on May Day.)

BESW

I love how flabbergasted Evil Hat always sounds when people give them money for cool stuff.

The Oracle

3:41 AM

0

Q: Migration flags should be more general than "questions about computer-based games"

Recently, I flagged a question about a console game (The Legend of Zelda: Wind Waker) as off-topic for this site. However, I noticed that the flags I had to choose from were as follows: Both flags say that they are for questions about "computer-based games". However in this case the question w...

discussion

Metool

Is Thunderforge in here? Doesn't look like...

BESW

4:14 AM

Who what?

Alex P

@BESW Thunderforge posted that meta question.

Lord_Gareth

4:33 AM

This fluff question is going to end in nothing but blood and sorrow.

BESW

I'm try trying to mitigate in advance....

....autocorrect, why you do this?

Metool

"either way the current term "computer-based games" isn't broad enough."

no, I think it is when my argument is taken into consideration

BESW

You are technically correct, but common usage of the phrase implies a distinction not literally meant by the individual words.

Ie, you're ignoring the idiom.

Metool

[doesn't get it]

He kind of has a point, sure...

BESW

The combination of words is used to mean something not meant by the words themselves.

Just because consoles ate technically computers doesn't mean that "computer game" includes console games.

Common parlance uses it to mean something more precise than the words actually imply. There is additional meaning given that phrase by the gaming community.

Metool

4:47 AM

But computer-based game sort of removes it from that context, doesn't it?

BESW

By rephrasing it a little? Not enough for clarity.

Metool

I suppose.

BESW

Since "video game" is the accepted term on the SE site we refer people to, there is no reason not to use their phrase.

Alex P

@BESW This tidbit reminded me of your earlier quest for a non-zero-sum conflict game:

> The purpose of a puzzle is to provide resistance. For me, that resistance doesn’t need to be coercive or challenging, just interesting and aesthetic.

BESW

"Computer-based game" is awkward, not a commonly used phrase, and too similar to another phrase with a different meaning, for us to justify using it because it is technically accurate.

trogdor

5:12 AM

@BESW I was gonna say the same thing

last mini campaign we did was about a very similar thing

main difference being alien tech, instead of artificially made superheros

Alex P

5:42 AM

This question needs some tag fixes. Hexblade is D&D3.5, right?

Metool

Yes it is.

BESW

Hexblade is also the Essentials version of the 4e warlock.

The talk about "outsiders" does sound more 3.5ish, though. Best to ask.

Alex P

I'll take off the tag, then.

Undid my haste.

Metool

Vampires?

BESW

That's the other reason I think it might be 4e: in 4e, vampire is a class, not a race or template so "vampire/hexblade" makes more sense in 4e.

Aand OP confirms 3.5.

Alex P

5:52 AM

As far as the question itself: too broad? I'm thinking probably no.

Metool

7:26 AM

"modificator"

BESW

@Metool Are you one of those alimigity conventionalators?

Metool

8:57 AM

> the magical powers of the Unicorns, the flight abilities of the Pegasi, and the strength of a good, true heart of an Earth Pony

Everyone wants to disregard this because it's not in core.

BESW

Hm?

Metool

Twilight Sparkle and the Crystal Heart Spell is a published book, but my friends are disregarding it, wanting to keep earth ponies as the have-nots of the pony races.

BESW

Ah.

I'm not sure what the general feeling is about non-screen canon--personally I feel like there's less consistent canon in FiM than in Doctor Who, and that's saying something--but Earth Ponies aren't just "good, true hearts." They have greater endurance and fortitude than the other races, and can have greater strength.

Metool

That and the nature-bond.

BESW

Earth pony magic is more subtle, that's all.

Metool

9:08 AM

@BESW <Snowflake> i disagree

<Snowflake> Doctor Who seems to contradict itself every season.

<Snowflake> it has gotten to a point where i gave up trying to understand it and all my reasoning is "because Doctor."

BESW

True. Doctor Who has never tried to have canon.

Well, ish.

No official statements regarding what is or is not canon have, to the best of my knowledge, ever come from the BBC.

And the last two show producers have explicitly said that they don't think it's possible for the show to have a canon continuity.

It's a little like asking about James Bond canon.

doppelgreener

9:49 AM

In fact, there are lots of people who actively seek out new RPGs because they like to try new ways of roleplaying, so for those people they will be actively happy to hear about a new game published. — SevenSidedDie 18 hours ago

@SevenSidedDie That's... a really excellent way to put what I was trying to communicate in my last sentence. Do you mind if I put that in my answer?

Metool

10:19 AM

> When you use the Dad's Revenge daily power, you can drain the entire mana pool of a single wild buck.

This is the best hunting game ever.

doppelgreener

10:50 AM

@Metool What is that? xD

Metool

@JonathanHobbs Sadly, a false framing of a hunting sim done by Chip Cheezum in a Metal Gear Solid LP to sell the fact that Psycho Mantis screws with your experience.

doppelgreener

@Metool what? xD does he cut to a hunting sim whilst psycho mantis is screwing around?

Metool

@JonathanHobbs Yup.

doppelgreener

@Metool That is lovely :D

Metool

Pulls in a different co-commentator after the first HIDEO flash, too.

Acts like nothing's different, it's great.

You can check out the fight from the pre-fight cutscenes or just skip to the last few minutes of the vid.

(It ends on a cliffhanger.)

Heyo, @RedRiderX!

@JonathanHobbs (The guy he brings in is his normal co-commentator.)

RedRiderX

11:13 AM

Howdy

doppelgreener

@Metool omg XD

Metool

@JonathanHobbs Once upon a time, his father walked in on Let's Play No More Heroes and started talking about Star Trek, so special for the video that happened in, he edited in a sort of boss-level intro in the style of the game, just for Guest Commentator: Dad Buster.

He cares about his videos, he's great.

Metool

11:50 AM

@JonathanHobbs Apparently he switches to a Cabela's hunting game on occasion.

doppelgreener

12:34 PM

@Metool that is great xD I watched it!

Lord_Gareth

1:30 PM

@BESW - Ponies.

BESW

Yes?

Lord_Gareth

Nothin' specific, just ponies.

Also I watched Equestria Girls the other day, haven't had the chance to start in on Season Four yet

BESW

Heh.

Lord_Gareth

But I gotta say, human!Rainbow Dash is a very attractive lady >.>

BESW

Equestria Girls makes a lot more sense if you assume that Sunset Shimmer invented that world out of whole cloth, to be a version of Equestria she would be able to conquer.

Lord_Gareth

1:32 PM

Won't fit with Celestia's statements, though

Equestria Girls' alternate reality isn't really all that out there, as A. Reality tropes go

It's pretty standard

BESW

@Pureferret, @Styphon Hi!

Styphon

Hello

BESW

@Lord_Gareth I don't trust anything that comes out of Trollestia's lying mouth.

Lord_Gareth

@BESW My personal theory is that the mirror can go to many worlds, but naturally aligns to somewhere else that will be as familiar as possible to the traveler.

Styphon

Anyone here well read up on Pathfinder, specifically Ultimate Campaign?

Lord_Gareth

1:37 PM

@Styphon - I am but you really won't like what I have to say about that particular rule subset.

BESW

@Lord_Gareth If that's where it takes Twilight and Sunset, I want to see where it takes Lyra.

Styphon

@Lord_Gareth I can well image lol, it does seem to have its holes. N I'm struggling to deal with one of them with my party.

Lord_Gareth

@BESW Ha! But yeah, Celestia doesn't know how the mirror works because Wizard; she's too cautious to test it.

@Styphon The answer is to drag them out back and freaking shoot them. Look, check this out.

BESW

Lord_Gareth

This is a metric ton of ketchup packets wrapped around twenty grenades. Now, when I pull this ripcord [Rrrrrrrip!], the grenades go off, spraying ketchup everywhere in some absurd parody of gory slaughter.

The resulting mess is less sloppy than Ultimate Campaign

Take the book out back and shoot it before it harms others.

Styphon

1:39 PM

lol

Lord_Gareth

But...

Sighs

What specifically is your problem?

Aside from having been lured into trusting Paizo to produce a quality product.

Maybe I can help

@Styphon ?

Styphon

Why should they create a new settlement rather than just keep expanding?

The rules just don't support creating new ones

It costs more n has exactly the same effect

Lord_Gareth

There's only really the one reason to do so, an' that's to have a backup.

Styphon

Grrr... Curse you Paizo

2

Lord_Gareth

With that in mind, you may be able to encourage them to do so by adding incentives not strictly in the rules. For example, a site away from their main city that has access to an attractive resource.

Nothing like that gate to Sigil to encourage you to build a trading town

Styphon

1:45 PM

Well we're running Kingmaker, so there's already the extra free half buildings

I was thinking of adding in some sort of bonus for villages near towns / cities

Lord_Gareth

@Styphon Yes, give in to your hate. Strike down Pathfinder and stop playing it in favor of a system that isn't a wretched pile of slithering garbage. I swear to you that every time I open the PFSRD it murmurs at me in Latin.

Styphon

Sort of economy stimulus type thing

BESW

@Lord_Gareth If that's an Event Horizon reference, +1.

Styphon

@Lord_Gareth Lol, and there I was thinking I'd actually found a nice, balanced system after 3.5

Lord_Gareth

@Styphon Pathfinder inherited 100% of 3.5's problems, added more, and fixed maybe two of them.

Three if you thought grease was a problem.

BESW

1:47 PM

@Styphon Unfortunately, in order to pick up the 3.5 fans who didn't like 4e, Paizo was unable to address the fundamental flaws in the system. They managed to bandage some of the symptoms, but couldn't fix the underlying issues.

Lord_Gareth

The Pathfinder design team, but especially SKR, openly mock balance as a design goal and deride players who care about mechanics as being munchkins unworthy of playing their games.

BESW

Their whole marketing gimmick is "If you liked 3.5, we can give you more of that."

Lord_Gareth

Thankfully, There Is Always a System For That (Yes, Even Then): tell me why you liked 3.5 and I may be able to sling something else at you.

Styphon

I guess it's more a lack of exposure to other things. I came from Palladium FRPG originally

Lord_Gareth

@Styphon I...I'm sorry. [Bro hugs] It's okay man. Kevin Siembieda can't hurt you any more.

BESW

1:49 PM

@Styphon Many of us spend years in the D&D Bubble; it was nearly seven years before I burst it.

Styphon

@Lord_Gareth Thank you

It was traumatic, but I'm making progress

Lord_Gareth

Well, does the idea of high-action fantasy appeal to you?

Styphon

Yes, it's what I live for

Lord_Gareth

Do you mind writing your own fluff?

Styphon

That and something where I'm free to mould the world to my own designs

Lord_Gareth

1:50 PM

Aaaah, excellent.

Styphon

That was the only part of Palladium that I miss

Lord_Gareth

Last question: how do you feel about rules that are more abstract and much less an attempt at simulation?

Styphon

Not sure, generally I'm a rules natzi

So could be interesting

Lord_Gareth

That's not...quite what I meant.

For example, with falling.

In 3.5, you take 1d6 per 10 feet dropped, caps at 20d6, right?

Styphon

yea

Lord_Gareth

1:52 PM

This system rates falls at Minor Fall (no damage), Moderate Fall (4d6), Dramatic Plunge (Derp d 6)

And does not measure vertical distance

Actually why don't I just link it.

Styphon

Generally I prefer simulation, but I know that's why 3.5 has it's flaws, so I'd be willing to try something else

BESW

It's a matter of choosing what to simulate.

Lord_Gareth

ruleofcool.com/get-the-game <-Meet Legend, a free-to-play D20 RPG with its roots in 3.5. Legend places a heavy emphasis on tactical combat, player agency, and customization. This link will take you to the core book, which contains everything you need to run Legend.

Any time you wanna ask a Legend question, I can answer it, or you can toss it up on the Stack (answered a few there too)

Styphon

ok

thanks :)

I'll have a good read through

BESW

Simulation doesn't mean realism--it has to start with deciding what you're simulating, or it's just a mess. You can simulate gritty action movies, but it's unlikely you can simulate political thrillers at the same time.

Lord_Gareth

1:55 PM

But yeah, very versatile system. Can fit any 'setting genre' so long as you add 'action' to it - as in action-horror, sci-fi action, action fantasy, etc, so forth.

There's going to be some things Legend just straight-up does not do. I wouldn't suggest it for gothic horror, for example.

So be warned up front on that score.

Styphon

@BESW true

@Lord_Gareth OK, I can't see me running gothic horror any time soon though :)

Lord_Gareth

That said, I've played in Legend games that run the gamut from classic fantasy (where I played a knight blessed with power over earth and stone) to X-COM (where I played Codename: GARM, the sole survivor of a supersoldier experiment kicked into the X-COM initiative in the hopes that she'd die and take the condemning evidence with her)

BESW

@Styphon 3.5 and Pathfinder --indeed, the entire d20 System school of RPGs-- are delusional to some degree, because they think their system can handle simulating anything if they tack on enough subsystems.

Lord_Gareth

@BESW Ahem. Legend is a D20 subsystem, and Rule of Cool Games openly admits that there's stuff their game does not do, cannot do, should not do, and in a couple of cases will not do because they hate it.

BESW

@Lord_Gareth That's refreshing.

I still think the d20 is a lousy die to base a system on, but I know that's personal preference.

Styphon

2:00 PM

@BESW Yea, it's been a pain when you think "Right, got it all covered" and it breaks all before you under game play. And then you just end up winging it, or spend hours discussing the rules instead of playing.

Lord_Gareth

@Styphon Oh! Oh! Oh! You're going to love this.

Rule of Cool Design Lead: "We want this game to be so comprehensible that aliens can play it."

Styphon

lol

BESW

@Styphon Our own @Magician has an essay on why the d20 is poorly implemented.

wax eagle

morning folks

BESW

Yo.

Lord_Gareth

2:01 PM

@BESW Oh, that does remind me - did you ever attempt to get into Legend? I wanted to ask you if you felt that the skill game system solved the Goblin Dice problem.

Styphon

@waxeagle morning

BESW

@Lord_Gareth No, I haven't had the right group to get interested in it.

As you know, my group right now is.... @trogdor.

Both of us are still working off our D&D overdose and experimenting with other settings in the Fate system.

Dragonsdoom

just finished my quickie map for my new campaign :)

BESW

Nice.

Lord_Gareth

Anyway @Styphon, check it out, try to get your group into it. There's an IRC chat where you can ask the developers things and several Legend players are on the stack.

And it uses a lot of mechanics that will be familiar to you.

Styphon

2:04 PM

I will, thanks

BESW

@Dragonsdoom I like your use of Actual Words.

Lord_Gareth

@Dragonsdoom - It looks like that small sea is a knife being used to stab the landscape.

Dragonsdoom

@besw thanks. they are a little dissonant with the campaign setting but i liked them

@Lord_Gareth i took italy from google maps and warped it beyond all recognition

BESW

@Dragonsdoom I've found that using familiar words for place and people names vastly increases the likelihood of my players to remember and use them.

Lord_Gareth

@BESW I find that if I just steal the names from ancient Persia they think I made them up.

Styphon

2:08 PM

@Dragonsdoom sorry to burst your bubble dude, but my first thought was "hey! That's Italy"

But then I'm from Europe

Dragonsdoom

i'm describing it as s.ta.l.k.e.r but swords and magic in not-italy

Styphon

Still, cool map

Dragonsdoom

@styphon no worries, i'm stealing more than the geography

Styphon

@BESW I just read the Goblin Dice post, and whilst I agree with some of it, what about random chance? Doesn't switching to a skill base remove chance?

Dragonsdoom

@besw i decided to use the names by listening to the wizards 4e podcast sessions

BESW

2:12 PM

@Styphon There are many ways to model chance.

wax eagle

@Styphon random chance is good, when it doesn't have major effects on the outcome.

BESW

You can use a smaller die, or more rolls, to change the way it's modelled--the big problem with the d20 is just that it's too swingy for single rolls where the outcome matters.

But often, chance is boring.

Styphon

@waxeagle why is it bad when it does? A stray arrow crossing a battlefield can kill even the mightiest of heroes

BESW

Unless your desired RPG experience is actually about modelling cruel coincidence, sometimes you don't want to make things so random.

Styphon

No, that was an extreme example, and in most cases it doesn't get that bad

BESW

2:14 PM

If you actually want to tell stories, sometimes you don't want to have a chance of failure on something that should be trivially easy for your character.

Styphon

No, in which case you don't even roll, you just let them pass.

A dice system doesn't force you to roll every time

BESW

Actually, it does.

D&D 3.5, in particular, uses that as a default assumption.

Styphon

But in 3.5, a 1 on a D20 skill check isn't a failure

BESW

Many people don't play that way, but the idea of "let it ride" is not inherent in the d20 System mechanics.

Styphon

So if you're inherently good enough, no matter what you roll, you pass

wax eagle

2:16 PM

@Styphon but is that interesting?

BESW

The d20 is an awkward die to default to.

Styphon

As interesting as just saying you pass because you have a high enough skill

BESW

@Styphon But there's a fundamental difference there.

If you have sufficient Tumble, you succeed whether failure is interesting or not.

Styphon

I'm sorry, I don't see your point

Just for example lets say a DC check is 15, and I have 14 ranks in tumble

BESW

Specific example: Tumble to avoid an attack of opportunity is DC 15. If you try at all, you easily automatically succeed on every try, making that part of the game irrelevant to you whether it would be interesting or not in any given situation.

Styphon

2:19 PM

I pass no matter what

Now if the system was no dice roll and the DC was 15, and I had 15 ranks in tumble, what's the difference?

BESW

By contrast: Every swing of the sword has a chance to miss, regardless of your circumstance and whether it would be interesting or not.

But the big problem isn't whether you have a chance to succeed or fail... it's that the chance is so strongly influenced by the die.

If you have a +5 to attack, random chance is more important than your character's ability.

Styphon

whereas if you have +20, random chance matters little

I get you now

BESW

If a single failure or a single success on a roll doesn't matter too much, and it's instead the cumulation of successes and failures that matters, the d20 is great.

But if success hinges on a single roll, like a Diplomacy check, the d20 is wildly inappropriate.

You either cannot lose (uninteresting), or your character's actual ability is largely irrelephant to the outcome (disempowering).

Styphon

Not strictly true

If the check is 30 and you have +25 then ability is largely relevant

and there is still a chance of failure

BESW

Compare Fate (my current favourite system), where the skill modifier is small (between +1 and +5, usually), and the dice curve from -4 to +4, but the vast majority of the time are only between +2 and -2.

And (crucially) you have the ability to spend game currency to increase your modifier if your situation can justify it.

Styphon

2:27 PM

You'll have to forgive me, I don't know Fate.

But I see your point

BESW

A skill bonus that is proportional to the dice curve, an actual curve instead of a straight line, and the ability to use resources to modify the result if the outcome is important to you, combines to create characters whose abilities matter, without totally trivialising the randomness.

Or, to take an even more drastically different system, Do: Temple of the Flying Pilgrims has you draw three stones from a bag of stones of two colours, then choose which colour to put back.

The number of stones you're left with, and your character's current situation, combine to tell you exactly what your character does (get in trouble, help someone, and/or advance the session's goal). Your character always succeeds at what they do.

Your character's stats are simply descriptions of how they get in trouble or help people.

Both these systems abandon "real" models of chance as boring. They want to tell stories about people who are dramatic and proactive, not people whose success or failure is either guaranteed or has no in-game justification.

Because the weirdest thing about the d20 is that if you tell the story of a d20 game, the great tension over mechanical outcomes is over something which, for the characters, is effectively "Will I fail for no apparent reason?"

Styphon

I disagree. It's more "Will I fail because I didn't train hard enough." - i.e. not high enough levels, or put skill points in different areas, or "Will I fail because fate (luck) is not with me." That's not for no apparent reason. In a world of high magic and gods there are many ways to explain it in story.

BESW

Setting aside the notion that numerical "levelling up" is somehow realistic, or that it's interesting to tell a story about someone whose failure is the unavoidable result of uncaring fate, this sets up the idea that we have to reverse-engineer story. "The mechanics say this happened, so let's retcon something to explain it."

[shrug] Like I said, it's fine for a single sword swing, but it's not cool for pivotal scenes.

Single rolls of the d20 for significant outcomes are disempowering.

It's a terrible existential world where you must take responsibility for actions whose outcomes you know you can't control.

I don't want to tell stories about people in that world.

Styphon

As I said, I see your point and I agree. I've had some horrible situations in D20 and in general, we don't roll when the rules state you should. I just thing "Will I fail for no apparent reason?" is a little harsh.

Lord_Gareth

@BESW - The flip side of this is that for pivotal combat scenes that element of random chance can be very thrilling. In a well-built D20 system those sorts of plot-defining combats can be a glorious mixture of chance and real skill.

BESW

2:43 PM

@Lord_Gareth Yes, goblin dice aren't inherently bad--just often poorly applied.

Not rolling when the rules say you should is another symptom of bad system design: we often run into the "A good GM can make this work" argument, as the ability to work around a system's flaws makes them go away.

Lord_Gareth

@BESW Many sections of the RPG community classify this as the Oberoni Fallacy.

"If the GM can fix it, it is not a problem."

The 3.5 fanbase has it hard.

"Wizards aren't broken if you fix X, Y, ban Z, and restrict A-F"

BESW

And if the way we explain failure is that after the fact we decide a god did it... well, telling the story of Oedipus or Job can be interesting, but D&D is very explicit that it thinks its characters are dramatic, proactive agents of their destiny.

Using the d20 as the primary tool for their success doesn't mesh neatly with that notion.

Lord_Gareth

@BESW Counter-Argument; the D20 is just a randomization tool. Its mathematics can be understood and built around in the system. Yes, this requires extra effort for essentially no return. However, it can be done

BESW

@Lord_Gareth But it isn't.

Lord_Gareth

Legend stuck with the D20 because Legacy Content, then busted their asses making sure their math was right so that player skill and character prowess are the deciding factors.

BESW

2:49 PM

The goblin die can be used well, and I don't know enough about Legend to say if it is or not in that system.

But the foundational d20 System and the major flagship representative games built on it don't use the goblin die well.

If Legend is successful, it's because it's the Oberoni Fallacy writ large.

"If the Legend devs can fix the d20 System, it's not broken."

Lord_Gareth

Hah. No, I'm not claiming that. The base D20 system released under the OGL is deeply and fundamentally flawed.

I defend only the physical die.

BESW

You're missing my point, then.

Styphon

I gotta run, catch you guys later :)

BESW

(And Magician's)

Which is not that the d20 is fundamentally flawed, but that it is abused.

The d20 System, especially its skill system, features aggressive misuse of the d20 in ways which actively undermine the System's stated objectives.

RedRiderX

3

Dang

It is kind of crazy

BESW

2:56 PM

@RedRiderX Don't show Trogdor.

@Styphon ttfn

RedRiderX

oops

SPOILERS

BESW

@RedRiderX No, just rage.

RedRiderX

Heh

BESW

3:10 PM

Argh. This client keeps coming up with new and inventive ways to mess with the project.

This time it's "Oh, the files you gave me so I could just do the final proof on the Japanese? Yeah, I re-sized the photos."

Now some of them are too big and will pixelize unless I restore them, and some have lost their aspect ratios!

RedRiderX

Oh wow

That's annoying

BESW

Grrr.

This project's a year overdue, and a lot of it is down to "Okay, it's done! No, wait, more changes that are just reversions of something we decided three months ago."

At the "finalising the Japanese typography layout on the page" stage, the "changing the size of the pictures" ship should have sailed long ago; typography layout kind of relies on where the images are on the page!

@Magician Welcome to my monthly freakout about The Client Who Wouldn't Stop Fiddling.

Magician

Hello

Shouldn't you be asleep? I know I should be...

BESW

He's added his name to mine as a designer on this thing, and at this point he's right to.

Yes. I'm up late because I thought I could finish this project, but I keep running into more things I had fixed which he broke again.

So now I'm just venting before sleep.

[adds Cthulhu to tablet dictionary]

Magician

Hah. It's an important word.

I have a somewhat similar project at my job. It's a paper that's been worked on for years. Data keeps not fitting theory, and theories keep changing.

BESW

3:24 PM

And I just know that on the next pass, he's going to whinge about the cropping on the pictures, because we spent a month haggling over what should be in or out of the frame, and now he's gone and changed the picture sizes, so the cropping's all changed.

@Magician I'm on the fourth or fifth "final manuscript," and he's made three dozen tiny changes to it since it was last declared finalised.

Some of them are punctuation changes to make the lines fit better! He's changing meaning and syntax to do the job that kearning and leading ought to be handling.

Magician

@BESW My condolences. Are you at least getting paid for your time?

BESW

@Magician Money on this dried up long ago.

It's a great, important project that I want to see succeed, so I've been volunteering my time, but my patience is nearing its end.

Anyway. I should try to sleep.

Magician

Good night!

BESW

If I'm lucky I'll get five or six hours.

ttfn

Magician