TRPG General Chat

Zachiel

00:08

@C.Ross I've had lots of great times with 3.x when I still believed it could do things it does not. Now, as a player, I'm torn between being unable to build an effective character on my own, too many houserules to find people who can help me with builds and DMs who I know keep my character alive by DM fiat, making me feel like I'm not the author of my success.

Alex P

00:31

@Zachiel That's a pretty bad place to be. I'm really impressed by your ability to identify those issues in your own gaming, though. It's a pretty difficult level of introspection to achieve.

LitheOhm

@starwed got it :D

Zachiel

01:04

@AlexP I've been studying game theory and the Big Model. I've been playing in environments where the DM keeping players alive because he "forgot" to roll some attacks or to factor in some damage (up to telling "which roll? I didn't see you roll" on an automatic save failure) - while players with a better build weren't apparently helped - made me realize pretty easily. If the encounter is not hard, it's not entertaining. If it's hard the risk of dying is too much for me to stand.

I felt really good the time I decided to memorize a +50 temporary HP spell on my 40 HP character and got critted twice during a completa attack for 80 damage total.
Now, what if I didn't cast that one spell?

Alex P

01:16

@Zachiel Is there a "sweet spot" or "middle ground" there? Or not really?

Magician

@AlexP For bonus points, you can get a full plate down to AFC of 0%, and I think you only lose a level of casting that way.

BESW

@AlexP Meh, not really. If the group is really in tune and communicating effectively they can get to the point where the GM has to cheat equally for everybody.

Alex P

@BESW I'm talking about "encounter is too easy, so I don't care" and "this is very dangerous, so I hate the feeling of risking my character" -- not the tiers issue. Since it's more of a personal reaction thing.

BESW

@AlexP It's the same thing.

Alex P

Is it really?

BESW

01:23

The only time I've ever felt like I could hit that "sweet spot" with any kind of regularity or accuracy is when I was running a one-on-one campaign.

If there's two or more PCs, the sweet spot vanishes.

Alex P

Okay, so basically you're saying that the "tiers" problem makes it very hard to challenge anyone equally. That's legit.

BESW

Not even tiers--specialties, too.

Two equally "tiered" characters will still usually fall prey to "One guy's challenged while the other guy's bored" unless they're basically the same character.

Also, even with one PC it's hard to hit the sweet spot multiple times without just rehashing the same encounter.

Alex P

That's also a matter of your personal taste, though. As far as how wide that "sweet spot" can be before it hits those poles of discomfort.

BESW

Aye.

My groups' sweet spots were probably wider than many because they knew I was reluctant to actually kill their characters without story in place to make it satisfying.

Alex P

Although TBH I find the whole "we're going to have an adventure story with about four encounters a day of tactically-challenging battles, and if you take a bunch of damage your character is dead" setup terribly clunky.

Video games let you reload.

(Not making the failure case be "your character is dead" does fix a lot.)

BESW

01:29

Indeed.

D&D expects players to put a lot of work into even first-level characters before they ever hit the field.

Eradicating that work shouldn't be as casual as it is.

Alex P

Especially D&D3.x as it developed. Since there was that whole focus on builds. I.e. planning.

Compare to "roll some dice and pick a kit" for 2e, for instance.

And then pretty much stumble blindly into spells.

Did 4e change what happens when you are beaten down below 0 hp??

(Also, did Next?)

BESW

@AlexP [clunk] [thud] Ow! Who put that fireball there? I nearly broke my neck.

@AlexP 4e made it a lot harder to die: instead of -10 = death, it's -1/2 your max hp.

And the DMG explicitly says "Don't kick 'em while they're down."

Alex P

That's something, at least.

BESW

Oh, and HP is much more standardized.

Everybody's got a decent amount of it.

Alex P

Yeah, I do recall that.

Anyone know what D&D5 is doing with hp-by-class and death thresholds?

BESW

01:35

(And 4e's resurrection doesn't burn XP for the caster or the target--nothing in 4e does.)

@AlexP [tongue firmly in cheek] "We discovered that people aren't happy when we take away hit points and every attack simply has a 10% chance to kill the target if it hits."

Alex P

Random historical thing of the day:

Abul-Abbas

Abul-Abbas (; also Abulabaz) was an Asian elephant given to Emperor Charlemagne by the caliph of Baghdad, Harun al-Rashid. The elephant's name and events from his life in the Carolingian Empire are recorded in the Annales regni Francorum (ARF; or the "Royal Frankish Annals"), and Einhard's Vita Karoli Magni also mentions the elephant. However, no references of the gift have been found in Abbasid records, nor any mentions of interactions with Charlemagne, possibly because Rashid regarded the Frank as a minor ruler. Contemporary accounts From the Orient to Europe Abul-Abbas was brought...

BESW

01:49

Tweets to Campaign By presents a terrifying, if unconventional, monster.

Those fools at the TSA questioned my fear. BEHOLD THE NIGHTMARE DUCK WHICH CONSORTS WITH DRAGONS! http://t.co/PUYL7jeXyn

Tweeted by UrsulaV on September 22, 2013 at 6:29 PM

Alex P

Also: how did the new crop of still-D20-ish D&D alternatives (13th Age, Legend, &c.) do the whole hp/death thing?

Magician

@AlexP 13th Age is quite similar to 4e in this regard. Your baseline hp are 6-8, depending on class, +con mod. At 1st level you get 3 times that amount, and the multiplier goes up by 1 each level. You die at negative half of max hp, and make hard saves (16+ unmodified) while down. 4 failures = death, success lets you stand up at the end of round, natural 20 lets you stand up at the start of round

Alex P

@Magician Do you get back up with negative hp?

Or?

Magician

No, just like 4e you spend a recovery (limited healing resource, very similar to healing surges) and heal from 0.

Aaron

@Zachiel Hey can I get a miner's helmet from the book Arms and Equipment Guide? It has a holder for candles on top that functions like a bullseye lantern.

Alex P

02:27

@Magician Reading your Mythender post now.

BESW

New attempt at the Commune skill and associated extras, for the Fate campaign @Trogdor and I are putting together.

BESW

04:38

Added spirit powers to the extras.

Magician

04:50

@AlexP Yay! That would make you about 4th person who read it.

Ah, the rolercoaster that is blogging.

Magician

05:20

The next phase of Next development. Apparently they think they have'll the core game done after incorporating latest feedback.

I've flipped through the last playtest package, and to be fair the classes actually look better than they used to. At the same time, they admit their math needs further work. Which makes me question the solidness of the foundation they believe they'll have.

They keep promising great things, like tactical rules, dramatic rules, customization rules and domain management rules. We're yet to see any, though.

Oh, and the last package has multiclass rules. Again, I've only skimmed them, but it looks like 3e. Except spellcasters get screwed even worse in this regard, which I didn't think was possible. Spells-per-day are dependent on character level. So if you go wizard 5/cleric 5, you won't get high level spells, and you won't be able to cast that many low-level ones either. Instead, you'll have some high-level spell slots, which you'll fill with low-level spells. If I didn't misunderstand it, that is.

BESW

06:40

...wait, what?

> "For the next few months [...] the editors and a team of designers will finalize work on the core game. The game’s foundation will be set in stone, as will the core options for the classes. [...] Meanwhile, a second design team will tackle [...] the underlying math of the game. [...] This work is important [because it] ensures that the classes play fair."

I... how is ensuring the math works so the classes "play fair" not part of the game's foundation?

Although I guess I'm not surprised that math and balance aren't part of Wizards' core D&D experience.

3

@Magician And something tells me that five first-level spells aren't roughly equivalent to one fifth-level spell.

Because in some systems, it'd still work out surprisingly well.

Magician

07:15

@BESW Yeah, I'd say this left me puzzled, but sadly it didn't.

BESW

It could mean that they want someone not on the primary dev team to double-check their maths, but that's not what it says.

Magician

They've had over a year to get their math right. They're going for bounded everything, making math simpler. If they haven't figured it out yet, there's no hope.

It does look like classes get something cool now. A bit. They don't feel so bland and boring anymore. Even though for most of them the character building choices seem to come down to picking one of the three sub-classes.

BESW

...shall I make a WoW comparison, or is that kicking them before they've ever gotten up?

Magician

Does it involve grinding undead horses?

BESW

No, just talent trees.

Magician

07:20

Because honestly, it kinda feels like that by now. There's a spawn every now and then, and then we beat that undead horse. Again and again.

@BESW Talent sticks is more like it.

BESW

@Magician That's the thing; WoW's most recent approach to talents has become a lot more sticklike than it used to be.

Magician

Oh? I've never actually played WoW, other than for a couple of hours on friend's computer. Dodged that bullet.

BESW

Previously, there were three "trees." You could put points into the bottommost talents of each tree however you liked, but you had to dedicate the lion's share of your talents to a single tree if you wanted to get the goodies at the top.

Very few viable builds were without the top talent of one tree, but you always had a smattering of points left over to dabble in low-branch talents of another tree. I personally had a very effective and unconventional priest who put talents 50/50 into two trees.

So, for example, a druid could have been Feral with bear-focused talents, (tank), Feral with cat-focused talents (melee DPS), Restoration (heals), or Balance (caster DPS).

And exactly which talents you chose gave builds interesting variety; they were customizable depending on the kind of group and activity you were most often engaged in.

Now, a druid is asked to choose one of those four options, and with that one click of a button he automagically gets all the features he needs for that build, without additional choices.

Magician

Hah. And what's the general opinion on this? Was it a needless complication after all?

BESW

There is a secondary interface which presents you with a small set of "extra" choices as you level, and they are used to customize your character--but they are unassociated with any particular major build option and are designed to all be useful to just about any druid. "If you PvP, pick this one regardless of whether you tank or heal."

I don't have my finger on the pulse of the community anymore (thank goodness).

My personal opinion is that it makes sense. You get your iconic build features earlier on in the leveling game, you can't make Bad Choices like the talent trees allowed.

It's actually very much a 4e-like philosophy, but with so much less choice.

Magician

07:31

As long as you can respec easily, you can experiment. It's one of those cases where you look at the past when respecing was extremely expensive if at all possible and just shake your head.

BESW

When I played again for a while recently, I found that I was pleased I didn't have to re-learn as much metagame in order to be effective, but I missed the ability to come up with a build that was uniquely suited to me and my playstyle.

Magician

@BESW Mm. Understandable. At the same time, 90% of people would have run the same cookie-cutter build anyway.

BESW

Sadly, the true customization in WoW now is relegated to player-made "inscriptions" that modify individual spells. You only get three major ones (the ones that actually change your endgame playstyle) and three minor ones (largely cosmetic), and because they're player-made.... you have to spend insane amounts of money on the auction house to get them.

Magician

Is that the new end-game goal, then?

BESW

Eh, once you hit endgame you also get gear customization.

Gear choice, gem sockets, enchant choices--but as you say, cookie-cutter builds are always in vogue.

I was laughed for my 50/50 priest, but I had the reputation to back up my choices: groups that I healed lived.

Magician

07:37

In such games, I've always found that most of these things are largely cosmetic. Diablo would overload me with choices as to whether I'd prefer 5 extra fire resistance or... I don't even know, it's been too long. I guess I don't enjoy this level of customization.

BESW

Most priest builds were designed on assumptions that weren't true about me and my circumstances, but the level of customization meant that I could build for my circumstances anyway.

I didn't get the impression that I could do that now.

Blizzard decided what circumstances I should be able to build for, and provided them pre-built. I got to decide if I'd rather have an escape ability that made my enemies run away or get rooted to the ground.

Granted, part of this is because I was playing in the heyday of Burning Crusade, and I seemed to be the only person on my server who understood the mana regen mechanics of that era.

When they abolished the 5-second rule in favor of a simpler mechanic that looked like the five-second rule to anyone who wasn't paying attention, my niche spot vanished.

Magician

Home time! Back in about an hour.

BESW

Basically, the WoW mechanics were designed such that it takes delving into the code, hours of in-game testing, and lots of spreadsheets, to figure out the optimal configurations--or even which choices are traps. But once someone did that work, others can simply take advantage of it.

However, the more you paid attention to the mechanics the more you could fiddle with the cookie-cutter builds and customize them to your needs without needing to go back to square one and doing all the code delving yourself.

So far as I can tell, the modern WoW experience has fewer traps... and fewer meaningful customizations.

Trajan

08:55

Hi

BESW

Hey.

trogdor

09:14

@BESW I like what you did with haunt and manifest

I am inclined, at least at the moment, to say this is how it should work

I like that, at least together, they are practically a swiss army knife for spirits trying to effect the mortal world

BESW

Aye.

trogdor

but that they are also basically worthless in the spirit world itself

BESW

You can tune a spirit's ability to impact the mortal world by giving them higher or lower ranks in one but not the other.

trogdor

yeah

BESW

And spirits still need to put ranks into other skills in order to be effective in the spirit world or if they fully cross over.

trogdor

09:19

yeah

BESW

My headcanon says that it's nigh impossible for spirit creatures to cross over without help from the mortal side.

trogdor

that all together makes it seem balanced, but still incredibly usefull

I am thinking either a lot of "personal" power, or some specific tie will be needed

maybe a certain spirit can cross over only at a specific time and/or day

and place even

BESW

Aye.

And I'm thinking that, for example, a zombie might be the result of a spirit creature with a powerful Manifest stunt.

trogdor

so like, it took a corpse basically?

or it just manifested so hard it made a body?

BESW

Revenant: Because your tie to the earthly world is so strong, you can use a corpse as an avatar in the mortal realm. Once per session you can select a humanoid corpse; through it you may use your normal skills to interact with the mortal world instead of using Manifest, as if you had crossed over.
Your corpse has one physical stress box, augmented by your Manifest skill. When the corpse is taken out in a physical conflict, you lose control of it and it is once again inanimate flesh. While you are using a corpse, you cannot use the Manifest or Haunt skills.

trogdor

09:27

ah

BESW

Or something like that.

Basically a corpse-puppet.

trogdor

yeah

BESW

That stunt would let a spirit that doesn't specialize in Manifest or Haunt still influence the mortal world--in a very obvious "kill-it-with-fire" kind of way, and the corpse wouldn't have much in the way of staying power, but if the spirit had focused on physical skills....

Oh, and I designed Haunt/Manifest to basically say "Unless you've got Commune, these guys aren't meaningfully attackable."

Re-emphasizing the "Only Teddy can do something" idea.

Rob

09:45

Ey up

BESW

Hey.

What's new?

Rob

@jonathan-hobbs They weren't but I'll cool with it

@BESW Nowt much; another fun week ahead, but Earthdawn tonight :)

How's the @BESW world?

BESW

Been making extras for a Fate setting @trogdor's going to run for me.

trogdor

lol

BESW

Also, making brownies because it's going to be a long hard night.

When work gets tough, I get chocolate.

trogdor

09:49

lol

Rob

10:00

Ooooo brownies :)

nom nom nom

I recommend putting Maltesers in the mix :)

BESW

Just chocolate chips.

Rob

om nom

There was a food festival at my village this weekend, I feel rather large :)

Any spot suggestions for a quick and simple wilderness encounter?

BESW

"Spot" like location?

Rob

more "on the spot" as in you lot :)

Badly phrased

BESW

A deep, narrow valley with a waterfall at the far end, and a series of pools connected by smaller cascades leading to a river flowing out of the valley.

An unnaturally round glade with a gnarled willow tree in its center.

Rob

10:06

Cheers :)

BESW

A broad prairie with scrub, the occasional glacial boulder, and a lot of pairie dog holes.

A hillock of wet but firm ground in the middle of a flooded mangrove swamp.

Rob

Thanks again :)

BESW

I can keep going.

A great stone hill rising from the damp heath, its summit cleft in twain. Standing stones cluster near its feet.

The edge of a barrier reef, water washing only an inch or two deep over the coral. To one side, deep blue ocean. To the other, a shallow lagoon. Underfoot, sharp limestone and coral with treacherous dips and squishy aquatic life.

Rob

Bonus points for use of the word 'squishy' :)

BESW

It is! Have you ever stepped on a sea cucumber?

Rob

10:17

Thankfully no! I've stepped on a slug and I can only imagine that it would be on a massively scaled up ickyness

BESW

Many sea cucumbers have the defensive mechanism of puking up their reproductive organs when threatened.

In saltwater it is a surprisingly large mass of sticky white stringy substance that quickly turns glue-y.

(Hello, triggered terrain hazard.)

Rob

Ewwwwww

BESW

A cave in the side of a vertical cliff-face. The wind howls along the wide, round entrance with a surprisingly deep noise like blowing over the mouth of a bottle. Inside, the cave quickly narrows down to a crawlspace before opening into a partially-collapsed cavern, its open ceiling revealing a verdant tropical forest above.

Rolling windswept red-dirt hills. The leeward hillsides are covered in tall grass with serrated-edges; on the windward sides the rich soil is exposed and hollowed out, shaping the hills like cresting waves. Occasionally a forlorn, wind-twisted tree --black and leafless-- clings to the crest of a hill.

(I'm not making up the sword grass, though the most dangerous ones have teeth so small you can't easily see them.)

And @trogdor will recognize several of these settings as locally inspired.

trogdor

ugh

unfortunately, it is all true

Rob

10:36

Cheers again @BESW

adios all

BESW

ttfn

Shkeil

Hi all

Trajan

@Shkeil Hi

BESW

Hey.

Trajan

@BESW I have some pampas grass in my garden, its leaves are quite sharp too, I cut myself with one last week.

Zachiel

10:48

@AlexP and now you know why I like Dragon Age way more than any game that runs on a server.

@Aaron that's not different from a continual flame torch with a cloth to shut it down. I don't know about the 3.0 A&EG helmet but it's 90 gp (but slotless) for you

BESW

11:16

@JonathanHobbs [wave]

Aaron

11:41

@Zachiel What I am looking at is just 1gp with a candle you have to get separate and put into it.

Joshua Aslan Smith

12:04

good morning all

Aaron

Goodmorning

BESW

Hey.

Joshua Aslan Smith

loved brian's question about the seeker

Shkeil

Hi @JoshuaAslanSmith

Joshua Aslan Smith

yo

wax eagle

12:22

@JoshuaAslanSmith ooh I am excited about that one. Wish I was home so I could research it properly. This demands study!

Joshua Aslan Smith

@waxeagle issue is most of what I know is from the charop guide he already referenced in the question.

wax eagle

@JoshuaAslanSmith yeah I was going to take the char-op guide, some controller theory and actually do an evaluation comparing it to other classes who attempt to do similar things. Because good/bad-ness is always relative to something else.

So how well does it fulfill the controller role in a vacuum, and then how well does it fulfill the role compared to classes that try to do similar things

Joshua Aslan Smith

12:40

good point

My issue is that I haven't actually played controllers so I only know whats good for them in theory

wax eagle

@JoshuaAslanSmith I've only played them a little bit, one session I think. But my fighter is definitely control secondary.

Joshua Aslan Smith

oh Ive built a lot of strikers with secondary in controller, hell my fave class, avenger, is all about that

but in my group theres a guy who really likes wizards and having ALL the options he can get so he almost always players a controller or a leader

wax eagle

yeah, we have pretty set roles in my group, and in general we don't have much character churn

Joshua Aslan Smith

12:57

in my home game I almost always end up being a striker, invariably defender, leader and controller get taken.

so usually its 5, with 2 striker, I ususally end being the alternative striker in that sense, always picking slightly more interesting, less about the big numbers strikers

wax eagle

@JoshuaAslanSmith fun. In that situation I'd go second leader if given the choice.

we've got a party of 6, it used to be 3 strikers, a leader, controller and defender. But when one of the strikers left we added another leader...it was starting to get hard to keep everyone up...

Joshua Aslan Smith

sometimes I do striker with a leader MC, truth be told though I havent played in that game for over a year since I took over as dm

now I just deal with people wanting all the lootz like its diablo 2

wax eagle

lol, heh.

any player will tell you (or any char-opper for that matter) that proper loot drops in 4e are essential for the math to continue working :)

Joshua Aslan Smith

its more about wanting all of the things all at once

wax eagle

yeah

Joshua Aslan Smith

13:07

I am more than generous (I drop magic items and gold above the standard drop rate)

issue is they don't know that even when I tell them that

the fact that I give them enough to basically have ALL level appropriate gear does not stop them from wanting items a few levels ahead right now

But since switching from player to DM I feel everyone should DM as somepoint in their main system

Aaron

In dnd 3.5 what is the differance between weaponsmithing/armorsmithing and a blacksmith? If I took a blacksmith craft wouldn't that cover weapons and armor?

Joshua Aslan Smith

@aaron not knowing within the system but being a general blacksmith does not make you an armor/weapon smith. Both of which are specialized fields of black smithing. Blacksmithing in general is mending tools, making tools, nails, horse shoes, etc.

wax eagle

@Aaron provided you like hitting things with horseshoes :P (tbh I have no idea)

Aaron

@JoshuaAslanSmith Ah. Thank you.

Joshua Aslan Smith

@aaron I try

Aaron

13:18

@waxeagle I should do a crazy character who uses horseshoes as weapons. Get the knife vest but instead of knives I use sharpened horse shoes XD

For melee he has shoes he has sharpened to spikes and uses them like punch daggers.

is concentration an important skill to a cleric?

Joshua Aslan Smith

Issues being that untempered steel and particularly iron (which is what most of these would be in that time period) has a tendency to lose an edge quicklyo

but D&D is rarely if ever concerned with weapon maintenance

Aaron

@JoshuaAslanSmith I was just about to say that lol.

Auto enchantment! Forever sharp.

Joshua Aslan Smith

the only nod is magical consumables like whetstones

extra damage for an encounter

Aaron

@JoshuaAslanSmith Wait whetstones give extra damage for an encounter?

Joshua Aslan Smith

in 4e

not sure about 3.5

Alex P

13:44

> An optional dramatic system that emphasizes D&D as a storytelling activity. This system treads ground that D&D hasn’t formally embraced in the past. It casts a gaming group as collaborative storytellers, with the DM managing the action and everyone contributing events, plots twists, and sudden, dramatic turns.

I'm really curious as to what that's actually gonna be.

I have zero expectation that it'll be good, though.

Aaron

@AlexP Is this next or just a general observation of D&D?

Alex P

@Aaron Next.

Aaron

@AlexP Ah.

Shkeil

A new version of DnD?

Alex P

@Shkeil See the discussion above. It's done with public playtesting and going into some kind of wrap-up process where they create all these optional extensions that no one has seen yet.

Aaron

13:49

If I want to change my picture can I use a url or do I have to upload from my computer?

Hmmm. How long does a picture change take to reflect everywhere?

Shkeil

@Aaron I think you can use both.

wax eagle

@AlexP a widely held (and I believe solid) theory is that various play test elements are actually modules that they will be polishing for inclusion in the final game.

Shkeil

@AlexP Thanks

Trajan

@Aaron Can be. Concentration is used to cast spell in harsh condition, like melee. If your character is expected to go fighting, you should take some ranks.

Aaron

@Trajan Ok. Thanks.

Alex P

14:00

@waxeagle I'm just not sold that the D&D team can do "collaborative storytelling" when, as far as I know, like none of them have any experience with such designs in the past. If someone like Tweet was still working for 'em, I'd give them more benefit of the doubt (since AM and Everway were kinda barking up that tree all those years ago, in some ways).

wax eagle

@AlexP I don't see any evidence they have the right personnel, or the will to actually do that.

Mearls is big on old school D&D which was big on robbing player agency, not granting more of it

Joshua Aslan Smith

@waxeagle yeah I support that theory

I think the final playtest packet definitely looks useable

whether it works as a whole new edition of D&D is another question, but it functions well

kinda suffers rocket tag issues

wax eagle

I haven't looked at the new version yet. last version was underwhelming

Joshua Aslan Smith

@waxeagle you didnt like the way classes were reformed in the august playtest packet? I thought it was the best packet yet for classes (particularly martial ones)

wax eagle

@JoshuaAslanSmith I don't even remember what my issues were...just wasn't impressed (I haven't been impressed for a while). I think my thoughts were that they were doing too much and didn't have cohesive goals

too many different directions

BESW

14:14

That sounds about right.

I never felt like they had a solid "high concept" that they returned to.

Joshua Aslan Smith

that may be very true

Aaron

Hey @waxeagle did you stop playing that cookie game?

BESW

[sings] Cookie game, cookie game, it's a beautiful cookie game!

James J. Regan IV

That game is evil....I started playing it when someone linked to it on here and I wasted more time that I would like to admit on it.

Aaron

I let it run in the background and then get upgrades and stuff.

Joshua Aslan Smith

14:23

omg forgot abou the cokies

Aaron

I am producing 1.5 billion cookies a second.

Metool

Ecplosions.

Aaron

Would using a light hammer range 20 and 1d(6 I think) be a good throwing weapon for a dwarf. :) I am trying to go for a hammer theme.

James J. Regan IV

@Aaron Before I gave up I was around that.

Aaron

@JamesJ.ReganIV It's like facebook games. Fun for a bit. I will prolly quit once I unlock everything.

James J. Regan IV

14:28

@Aaron Yea, I understand, it has about at most a week or two worth of content if you only check it occasionally.

Alex P

@BESW Which is kinda weird because... D&D. There are a couple of more-or-less ready-made "high concepts" sitting around on the shelf of editions of yore.

Aaron

@JamesJ.ReganIV It does update often. The creator is working on some dungeon game now.

Metool

Dungeon subgame.

BESW

@AlexP Mm, but so many and they wanted to pick all of them.

And then it seems like they got lost in directly responding to playtest feedback, rather than filtering playtest feedback through their high concept.

Shkeil

@Aaron A hammer with a boomerang effect?

Metool

14:30

Kitty break!

Aaron

@Shkeil Hehehe. That would be awesome. There is an enchantment I can eventually get that will return a thrown object.

Shkeil

I can't resist myself to said this... A small reference to a french MP3 saga with a dwarf and this kind of hammer.

Aaron

@Shkeil I am not sure what this is.

Metool

More kitty break.

Aaron

Grr. Why will my pic not change?

BESW

14:41

@Aaron Log out and back in?

Shkeil

@Aaron It doesn't matter.

Aaron

@BESW It changed when I go to my profile but not in chat,

@Metool imgur.com/account/favorites/64hTd

BESW

What about your chat account profile?

Metool

@Aaron If you're looking for an image, then it's probably been deleted or may not have existed at all. Bummer!

Aaron

@BESW ... I was unaware there were separate accounts. Thank you.

@Metool I linked you to my favs on accident. one sec.

@Metool try this one imgur.com/gallery/64hTd

@BESW How do I change my pic on that? I can hover over it like the other profile.

BESW

14:46

Change the parent user. Right now this is the parent user account for your chat account.

As you can see, it's still got the default icon.

So you either change the icon there, change the parent user of the chat account to rpg, or use the "save and copy to all accounts" option in your rpg account.

James J. Regan IV

When I changed my pic recently, I just changed my gravatar. It fixed it pretty quickly.

BESW

Not everybody's using gravatar, though. It has its own... quirks.

Aaron

I don't see a save and copy to all accounts option.

James J. Regan IV

@BESW Yea I know. I 've not run into any so never had a compelling reason not to use it.

BESW

@Aaron Go to this page (or get there by clicking the "edit" option at the top of your rpg account page) and scroll all the way down.

Shkeil

14:52

Maybe it need some time to save the change on the chat account.

BESW

It'll take all your account info--profile, avatar, etc--and apply it to every SE account you've got.

Aaron

Thanks.

Joshua Aslan Smith

@besw but but but if they picked a defining high concecpt they might have excluded or turned away the already jaded fanbase

BESW

@JoshuaAslanSmith Sadly, they started with a high concept that they felt would not do that.

They just kept... forgetting it.

Joshua Aslan Smith

I do think Next is less than it could be, because of the make all the people happy all the time fallacy

@besw which concept? i know not of wha tyou speak

BESW

14:55

@JoshuaAslanSmith But since it seems like economically, Next couldn't exist without that fallacy...

> ...we want a game that is as simple or complex as you please, its action focused on combat, intrigue, and exploration as you desire. We want a game that is unmistakably D&D, but one that can easily become your D&D, the game that you want to run and play.

Joshua Aslan Smith

Thats not a high concept?

BESW

It is!

But they keep forgetting to return to it.

Joshua Aslan Smith

That sentence does not evoke "Die hard in space" "snakes on a plane" etc.

those are high concepts

BESW

It is a succinctly-stated premise. Thus, high concept.

Trajan

@Aaron Quite good (but d4) since it has a decent range and is very affordable (1gp in PF, don't know for 3.5) (and arguably less prone to damage itself than knives).

BESW

14:58

It does not require the explanation of subtle nuances in order to be understood.

Aaron

There needs to be a feature where you can go to the comment a person is replying to.

BESW

@Aaron There is.

Joshua Aslan Smith

possibly, though I feel that phrase communicates everything and nothing at the same time. We'll make a game of undefined complexity with an undefined focus, that you will define, oh and it'll have dragon-esque ampersands

BESW

@Aaron Click on the arrow at the beginning of this line.

Aaron

@BESW Oh how do you use it?

The Oracle

14:59

1

Q: What should I consider before posting a question and answer it myself

Since Stackexchange encourages to answer your own question, and this other meta post seems to acknowledge this, how do I know if there's a real need for this question to be on SE ? Context : Playing shadowrun-sr4 the other night, I ran across a question with my GM of which I knew the answer and ...

Aaron

Facedesk. I'm an idiot. I should have known that.

Joshua Aslan Smith

@besw I do want next to be good, as much as I like 4e, I would like for a more streamlined system some of the time

Aaron

I am oblivious to the obvious stuff.

BESW

@JoshuaAslanSmith It doesn't define its terms, but it clearly lays out its priorities and goals, and implies a set of steps to accomplish them.

Of course, Step One is identify the universal essence of the "D&D" experience and Step Three is profit, with Step Two being ???.

Joshua Aslan Smith

I guess its just not together enough for me as I learned the term high concept, Ie a pitch sentence basically

BESW

15:04

(I kid. Step Two is create as many options as there are playstyles, Step Three is make them all work together equally well in any combination, and Step Four is profit while fleeing the pitchforks and torches of apathetic buyer disloyalty.)

Joshua Aslan Smith

I guess the truth is you can't undo 3.5 nor the bad transition to 4e

BESW

@JoshuaAslanSmith Boil it down. "A game that is as simple or complex as you please, its action focused on combat, intrigue, and exploration as you desire."

Or, if you prefer, "A game that is unmistakably D&D, but one that can easily become your D&D."

Joshua Aslan Smith

@besw which to me describes something like gurps (maybe even savage worlds) but in no way = D&D, ah yes that second one is better

BESW

Anyway, so far as I can tell, in practice Step Two IS still ???, and that's their problem.

wax eagle

@Aaron lol...I've got 3 different games going..I'm not addicted at all <_< >_> -_-

BESW

15:07

They've got no clue how to deal with player feedback constructively. Either they ignore it, or crumble before it.

Aaron

@waxeagle 3 different games?

wax eagle

4.something billion cps on one of my games at home...my game here at work I reset this morning with 2 trillion cookies baked...

2 different browsers going at home...and one here at work...

Magician

@waxeagle Someone, I won't point fingers, considered the fun of Cookie Clicker to be in writing javascript to beat it. Clicking cookies, buying best upgrades, etc.

I've been fiddling with the code myself...

wax eagle

@Magician considering who's G+ update got me started I could hazard a guess

Magician

He blamed me for it there, too :p

At end-game, most money comes from golden cookies, particularly when they overlap. And auto-clicking them makes all the difference.

Joshua Aslan Smith

15:10

@besw I agree with that. They completely folded on the fighter second wind from the august packet because everyone who hates martial came down on it hard

BESW

I am reminded of the Inklings' letters about Tolkien.

Joshua Aslan Smith

I was like this is one of the few things that makes the fighter truly unique so far (basically making it stand out compared to rogue and barbarian)

BESW

If a chapter was criticized, he'd either ignore the criticism completely or rip the thing up and start over from scratch.

Joshua Aslan Smith

lol

Metool

So is Stalvern a real name or a result of that one author's writing?

Zachiel

15:23

@Aaron wait you are a dwarf, you see in the dark just fine (in black and white)

Aaron

@Zachiel Yea out to 60 feet. I am also thinking of possible team mates

Zachiel

@Aaron concentration is important to every caster, especially for casting defensively (DC 15 + spell level to avoid opportunity attacks when casting)

Aaron

@Zachiel I will likely cast enhancements at the start of battle and healing afterward. If the foe is too close already I will just melee but thanks for the info.

Shkeil

@Aaron Tell what you'll see. It will be enough if they're any danger.

Zachiel

@Aaron That's nice of you. I think the main thing with the helmet is keeping your hands free, but my problem is mostly for not turning the game into a "hey I saw this on this manual, may I have one?". Yours is pretty innocuous and I see no reason for telling you "no". Maybe I'll accept every similar mundane item but who knows in which problems such an assumption will make me fall? (It's yes you can)

Alex P

15:30

@BESW So, umm, their concept is "D&D Next will do two impossible things before breakfast, and three more afterward?"

BESW

@AlexP And during its smoke break, it'll teach a cat to care.

Aaron

@Zachiel I was just looking for random neat stuff I could get. Nothing big like just trinkets that won't change much. I bought a couple copper arm bands for jewelry for giggles as well.

Joshua Aslan Smith

@alexp basically they want to create a game that is iconically D&D, but that also caters to fans of specific editons and allows them to conceivably all play the same system while tossing out sub systems they do or do not like

Aaron

@Zachiel The only thing I needed to talk about was a belt that could hold the hammers I will be using as thrown weapons. Throwing knives have sheaths so they just go on the belt. Will I need to get a special belt to hold the hammers?

Zachiel

@Aaron at the end of your turn, if you didn't move. Returning is pretty bad to me.

no special belt for the hammers

no need of one, I mean

Aaron

15:37

@Zachiel I am not sure what you mean. The enchantment is bad?

Joshua Aslan Smith

there are no bad enchantments, only better ones

Metool

@Aaron At the end of your turn means you can't take more than one attack with it. If you use a standard action attack, you have a move action to use still.

BESW

@JoshuaAslanSmith Vicious.

Joshua Aslan Smith

@besw better than magic weapon for crit fishers?

Metool

bye

Joshua Aslan Smith

15:40

what im saying is every enchanted weapon is better than a non-enchanted weapon (except maybe a cursed weapon)

BESW

And a kick in the kneecap is better than a sharp stick in the eye.

Joshua Aslan Smith

hahaha

I was being a bit silly

Zachiel

@Aaron You need one returning weapon for each attack you can make and this means enchanting lots of weapons. You need to move before attacking, if you want to move, or the weapon drops to the ground where you were standing when you attacked with it.

Aaron

@Zachiel Ah I gotcha. I mostly joking anyway.

@Zachiel What site will we be using to play on? Some of the members have issues with roll20 right?

Zachiel

I've seen a monk with returning punches.

@Aaron I guess we'll use twiddla for the maps and room descriptions taken from the manual and here (in the back room) for rolls and play.

I'm open to better working solutions

Aaron

15:52

@Zachiel Wait... What?!????

Zachiel

@Aaron The Kensai class allows you to give the throwing and the returning property to your signature weapon. Which was punches.

Joshua Aslan Smith

@zachiel lol

Aaron

@Zachiel ... What would the benefit be? You can't exactly detach your hands unless they are prosthetic.

Joshua Aslan Smith

@zachiel which edition

Zachiel

I've always told that player that the punches would detach but they wouldn't patch themselves after returning

@JoshuaAslanSmith 3.5

Joshua Aslan Smith

15:54

gotcha

thatz

Zachiel

@Aaron Oh it was just a silly build.

Aaron

@Zachiel Ok.

Joshua Aslan Smith

crazy

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