@Lord_Gareth Brian deleted those comments, looks like. But don't let that stop you.

@ErnestMueller I've got to say though, the tone of that answer is kind of antagonistic and anyone removing comments pointing out that fact is kind of lousy.

@Lord_Gareth and @SevenSidedDie The mod policy on several boards I've been on is this: A moderator cannot, ever, under any circumstances, use their mod powers in a situation they are personally involved in, even if it is exactly that moderator's department. Any moderation must be performed by another moderator, unless there are extenuating circumstances.

Reason being, even if the mod can do their job, and it is the mod's job, it is unacceptable for the mod to be in a situation where they can even be interpreted as abusing their powers, regardless of whether they are doing so.

@JonathanHobbs this is the very reason SE uses multiple mods on every site.

In the case of comment deletion: even if it's his thing to delete comments, and it's under his power to do so, he should not be doing it to avoid even the appearance of being in a compromising position.

Because being in that position damages the credibility of the moderator in question regardless of what they're doing, and undermines the entire moderation team's credibility at least a little.

@JonathanHobbs from what mxy just said (Ernest is his alter ego (or vice versa really)) that was the case here

@JonathanHobbs Yeah, and I agree with that policy most every place.

@waxeagle Ah alright :)

I don't think my answer is antagonistic and that wasn't what the comments said; they just don't like the viewpoint. This is a common and recurring problem between gareth/kryan and myself/other members of the site.

As a mod, I don't touch stuff I'm involved in

@JonathanHobbs My saying that I think that's what happened, and why, was explanation and not approval. I was wrong, and I'm glad of that. :)

it's why we have 3 mods

@ErnestMueller That is the other thing I was going to mention. I don't see anything in your answer that is flamebait or passive-aggressive or etc.

@JonathanHobbs eh " From the POV of gaming groups that run normal campaigns where people try to pick non-stupid combos but don't worry about crunching Excel spreadsheets to "get max DPS," it's quite enjoyable." is borderline IMO

The fact that I dare disagree with those two about the monk not being utter trash is apparently incensing to them. That's fine, but is their problem and not my problem.

@JonathanHobbs Eh, I can see why they'd be offended by it. I'm not sure I'm neutral enough to judge it as not passive-aggressive, and I can see what parts would inflame passions.

@SevenSidedDie Oh. I wasn't construing that as implicit approval of what happened - I did just interpret it as commenting on what happened.

@JonathanHobbs OK, cool.

They try to portray their charop opinions as "fact". "The monk is horrible and no one should ever/does ever play it and it's fundamentally flawed" isn't fact, though they depict it as such. Lots of folks play them and have a good time. Pointing out that occurs and that different levels of op are the probable reason is IMO a "good answer" because it points out there are different approaches instead of just pretending there's one.

Don't worry, I am never passive about my aggression. If I think you're a punk I'll tell you.

@waxeagle It's only borderline if you're predisposed to read that as "hurr if you're an optimiser you do stuff like crunch excel spreadsheets", which it isn't saying or even implying (it's just drawing upon an extreme for its usefulness in making a comparison)

I guess it's borderline because there are people who will read it that way? Is that the case?

Yeah, I mean, it's not like I haven't ever crunched Excel spreadsheets for DPS. It's a thing.

I wish it was possible to know what a "normal" game actually looked like. I take the stance that, since we can't, we ought not assume what our idea of normal is, actually is. From that perspective, both @ErnestMueller's answer saying "X is a normal game" and the pervasive belief that charop is normal (as represented by KRyan and Lord Gareth) are both unacceptable.

Well, but that's always going to chase its tail. What's "high optimization"? I could call it "middle or low op" instead of normal but then they'd just say their level of op is low/medium.

is this where Brian's constrained op paper comes out? :)

the fact is that everyone optimizes. we just all optimize for different things.

@ErnestMueller I have and I'm not even an optimiser! Look at this! I was comparing a stunt that automatically deals +2 stress on a tie or better, to a stunt that always gives a +2 to the roll. That's in Fate! That's the one where people would tell me I'm playing the game wrong if I try to optimise.

No-op? Yeah, I don't know. But making a claim on "normal" is always going to inflame others, since our game is normal, right? But they're all so very different from each others, and the Internet has a skewed view of what normal is by selection bias.

It is my learned opinion, from gaming for many years, starting gaming clubs, running and playing games in various gaming groups and conventions, that the average gaming group does not optimize to that degree. That's my opinion and one I'll put in my answers. Happy to have others put their opinions in their answers too.

Frankly, I consider most of their responses on the subject to be on the line of hatefulness, since "only idiots who can't do 2+2 would play a monk..." They disrespect other playstyles more than I ever do.

@ErnestMueller Lord Gareth actually did say that he's not a charop player. I bit my tongue, because he's the epitome of charop from where I sit, since even a rabbit looks like a giant to the ant. It's a good example of exactly the kind of "home game" bias we're all blind to, though.

@SevenSidedDie Sure. But that's why different opinions are valid and the site metaphor works for it. They have their say, I have my say, let the people vote. I'm not super happy that they always go seek out every answer they disagree with to downvote it because that's not really how that's supposed to work, but eh, it's a living.

relevant: magbonch.wordpress.com/2013/03/18/no-such-thing-as-dnd

I think the advice to not refer to other answers, even indirectly, might apply.

Good Subjective, Bad Subjective encourages us to share our context. Then the larger context of the body of users gets to "decide," where decide means vote so something is a little higher on a web page somewhere. It's not really something to declare jihad over IMO

@SevenSidedDie Very, very true. I usually get drawn into these things when people are not answering but just spamming comments boosting "their view" on other answers.

@ErnestMueller No, but it's not necessary to refute an entirely playstyle as "abnormal", even by implication. We're all normal, at our tables.

But, on the other hand, then I get to do some comment deleting. Brian actually pulled ahead of me recently so I need to shake it on out

@ErnestMueller aw who got that epic purge this morning? that should have evened a few scores :)

@SevenSidedDie <rolls eyes> I'll change to "average op" or something if you think that's better. I don't think it's offending anyone but those who will be offended no matter how it's stated.

@waxeagle Well I got the socks... Some of them. We had to pull in SE central for some, the guy was apparently terrorizing several other sites in the network too

@ErnestMueller fun. he came by chat. seemed a cross between nice and upset. We almost had him settled down when the suspension hit :)

I would just say, "from the POV of gaming groups that don't really care much about optimization, it's quite enjoyable."

@SevenSidedDie Done

@waxeagle That was just his act. Like I said, sockpuppeting is as much social engineering.

@waxeagle What happened!?

Though I would note that published campaigns like the APs we use are somewhat the definition of normal...

@waxeagle That's the bipolar disorder

@JonathanHobbs trolling flaming baiting, bunch of bluster and then a mod hammer :)

@JonathanHobbs Yeah I had to do it for Alternity because the mechanic there is opaque enough I couldn't figure out how well various weapons even did compared to each other

@waxeagle Wow, sounds like I missed out on some fun.

Is that why there's an answer edit owned by Community here?

@JonathanHobbs annonymous edit usually

Funny story, I saw someone from same IP as Brian once posting and upvoting him. Asked him (I'm sure he didn't take up socking, but hell, it's the job to ask) and it was someone he knew there at the uni who he had gotten into SEing. I told him legitimate bromances are fine. :-)

Family's home, time to make the dinner.

Ah just another day in the life of the weird BS we handle as mods, we usually try to quietly kill it with fire so as to not disturb the masses.

@ErnestMueller heh I had to suspend someone for a year yesterday...

Sweet

OK, gotta run, Akamai's not going to be handing out these free drinks forever! (Am at a conference)

Take it ez all

@ErnestMueller enjoy :-)

@ErnestMueller well enjoy.

@waxeagle yeah, that's the job we volunteer for

@waxeagle Aha okay, thanks

... Did someone mention Alternity?

That was a fantastic game, right there.

@BESW Good morning! :)

@JonathanHobbs Okay, I've slogged through the massive backlog.

Hi.

I'd like to thank the socks for sparking some very interesting and productive conversations in their aftermath.

@BESW yes, it was a rather productive day from that perspective

Some good stuff here in general.

I'd like to opine that it is never necessary to make declarations of "normal" experience; instead, as was finally suggested above, describing the experience is sufficient and actually more informative.

On an entirely different note, pictures of the Fate Core books!

@BESW Ooh, I might pick up the FAE book even though I bought the KS just to support my brand spanking new FLGS (well the L part is kinda rough)

Hi!!!

hiya! much quieter this time round :)

:P

wow Costa Rica y Ecuador!

but where are you from.... u know ur parents? ur nationality?

@Eilleen I'm American (US). I grew up in Maryland

@waxeagle then why do you know spanish>?

in highschool my family moved to Costa Rica for a school year (for language training) and then Ecuador.

:O .... wow!

didn't know Spanish was a big deal in USA

nice!

@Eilleen depends on where you are. It can be very useful in certain places. I lived in Texas for a year and it was incredibly useful.

remember, we have like 80 million hispanics here :)

yes.... but in the majority

they are mexicans right?

puertoricans are mostly in Kisimi and NY....

@Eilleen there are a lot of Mexicans, but plenty of Puerto Ricans (I think there are more of them here than there are there now) and other latinos. I work with an Ecuadorian and a Venezuelan

well.. Orlando in general

@Eilleen I know kissimee :) stayed there when we went to Disney when I was a kid :)

well .... have you seen Puerto Rico?

@Eilleen sadly no. Haven't had a lot of chance to travel outside of the US since I grew up :(

It is physically impossible for ALL puertorricas to live here

@Eilleen yeah and IIRC the downturn hit you guys hard.

right now .... 4 million ppl live in an island that you can';t even see in the world map1!!

IIRC?

@Eilleen if I recall correctly

@waxeagle xD oh ok :P

@waxeagle so.... how old are you?

@Eilleen 27

how long have you been playing?

about two and a half years. some buddies from college decided they wanted to get together and try out D&D, something a bunch of us had wanted to do for a while but never had the time. It worked out well since we hadn't been able to hang out much after college with wives, kids and jobs...

been playing ever since

@waxeagle wow wife and kids? and only 27

@waxeagle nice!

@Eilleen yep, just celebrated 7 years of marriage, we've got two boys a 4 year old and a 1 year old :)

@waxeagle I saw a charcter sheet designed for kids! it was pretty nice

@waxeagle :D Congrats!!!!

@Eilleen yeah when they get a bit older we'll try something simple :) maybe FAE

@Eilleen thanks

@waxeagle hmmmm.... if i was a kid.....

@waxeagle I LOVED CLUE!

@waxeagle and,..... trouble xD

@BESW Brilliant!

@Eilleen lol yeah my 4 year old likes card games. and we have several that he's got the hang of.

@waxeagle We had a guy come through a few days ago hoping to start RPGs with his family, and FAE seemed like the best fit.

and we play chutes and ladders :)

@waxeagle oh... maybe you can get some ideas from atable Top... the youtube show...

But his kids were a bit older, and he was new to TTGs too.

@BESW yeah nice guy, he's a mod room regular

@BESW um..... what's FAE btw :P

@Eilleen Fate: Accelerated Edition

@waxeagle ..... never heard of it

Fate Accelerated Edition, an "all dials on minimum" version of Fate Core.

(Both free to download!)

@waxeagle :( now I think that I've missed out on my childhod!

@Eilleen it's new. Fate as a system has been around for a while (the Dresden Files RPG uses it if you've seen that)

@Eilleen it's not just for kids (in fact @BESW is running a game of it here on the stack)

@waxeagle wait.... all of u guys play together

There are some RPGs designed specifically for younger kids, but they're almost all very new and often not really... pedagogically sound.

@Eilleen we'll host chat room games, or games on G+ hangouts sometimes. Though it's not a regular thing.

@BESW xD ok!

@BESW yeah...I wanna say I've seen some gamer parents playing Dungeon! with their kids (Dread Gazebo maybe?)

@waxeagle :O and where do you post this events?

if...... they happen

@Eilleen usually we'll either coordinate them in here or in chat.stackexchange.com/rooms/13/…

though that room is frozen at the moment

oh ok! nice

and... I imagie none of you are watching the game? right?

For the game I'm facilitating, the forum is here and the chat is here.

@BESW the FAE game?

@Eilleen you mean the Heat Spurs game? I've got it in a seperate tab...might pull up the audio on my phone for the second half

Aye.

:P yes the NBA game....

though for some reason I imagine americans caring more about american futbol..... not NBA

@Eilleen depends on where and who you are...and @BESW isn't a mainlander either :)

@waxeagle where is he from?

@Eilleen guam :)

@Eilleen pro tip, you can click on our names in chat to pull our SE profiles which usually has where we're from and age if we want to show them :)

oh ok :S

so no personal questions? XDDDD

Yep, just click on their name (or portrait) and then click the "profile on rpg.stackexchange" link, which should open in a different window.

Personal questions are fine. :) But you can find out some of the basics just by checking our profiles, no questions needed.

@Eilleen you can ask but you can get a good idea of what people are willing to answer from their profile :)

ok!

@waxeagle so.... do you say in uour profile you speak spanish? x

XD

@Eilleen We've got a good smattering of multilingual people hanging about.

what is the old d6 Star Wars?

@BESW and what do you speak?

@ObliviousSage what is the old d6 Star Wars?

@Eilleen Magniloquence.

@Eilleen Probably this.

Yes, that's the one.

As opposed to the newer one from Wizards of the Coast, and the even newer one from Fantasy Flight.

(In all seriousness, I'm fluent only in English, though I have a tiny bit of Spanish and Chamorro, and enough Latinate exposure to fiddle my way through basic Romantic text.)

@BESW xDDDD BESW how is it that your profile describes you as problematic on the chat???

It does?

Seems fine to me. Eilleen (that was my grandmother's name, incidentally), are you sure you clicked on BESW and not Problematic (who is also a person currently in this chat room)?

@BESW chat.stackexchange.com/users/52915/besw although now it says trogdog .... whatever that means

@ObliviousSage I actually also have a grandmother (sort of, my grandfather's wife) named Eilene :)

well.... my grandfather

named all of his kids with E

Oh, you're looking at the most recent people who have spoken in the chats I'm in.

Eduardo

Edna

and Elda

This is my own RPG.SE profile.

@BESW xDDD then sorry

and my mom never liked her name

but her second name was Eilleen

so.... she named me Eilleen.... with an extra L just because

@BESW so yu create your own campaings?

As opposed to using pre-made module adventures? Yes.

@BESW nice!

In 4e I used a lot of modules for mechanics and setpieces, but re-skinned everything to fit the story I wanted to tell.

do you kep a record opf them?

or share them?

Not regularly.

@BESW oh.... i have a question!

what about 3.5

???

What about it?

why do people prefer 3.5 over 4ed?

The two systems cater to different kinds of game experience. Each is preferred by the people who prefer the game experience it encourages.

There are a lot of different styles of playing RPGs. 3.5 & 4e each suit very different playstyles.

4e is a tactics engine: it's designed to run tight, dynamic physical combat in one of the most character-balanced exception-based systems currently available.

They told me 4ed was like a playstation game.... and that it was stupid xD

It's very different from 3.5.

maybe the sudden change didn't allured old players?

Unfortunately, I have to go now. Sorry.

@BESW BYE ^_^

@ObliviousSage xD and Kobolds Ate My Baby???

imagine D&D if you were playing as the goblins instead of the adventurers

lol

it's very funny

very quickly: 3.5 operates under the assumption that it should be able to model every possible situation, using a series of separate subsystems (five for magic, one for grappling, one for raging, one for...). This leads to a proliferation of interconnected but poorly evaluated subsystems, to the point that choice becomes the greatest weapon for a 3.5 PC: having access to the most powerful options makes PCs god-like, and not knowing what those options are can be crippling.

what about kobolds? Kobolds are awesome little dudes

4e threw out subsystems in favor of a game-wide system that was modified only by minor exception-based rules (largely from classes and feats). This means that on the mechanical level two characters can look rather similar, although their exceptions will make them play much differently and let them fill different roles.

The kobolds in Kobolds Ate My Baby are more like Everquest kobolds than D&D kobolds; they're like little idiot werewolves who are stuck in half-man form.

Instead of inventing new subsystems for each circumstance, 4e leverages a small set of standardized elements that are generic enough to be able to apply to any given circumstance within its chosen realm: physical combat.

And I do mean little. Cows are a major threat, simply because they're so much bigger than you.

The price paid is that it stopped even trying to support most other scenarios, in order to focus on doing that one thing right. It succeeded.

@ObliviousSage aww man

oh well

However, although it is video-game-like in that it achieves a good deal of balance by using only a handful of universal mechanics, it is much more customizable than its detractors give it credit for. Insanely so, even.

@ChristianCareaga Hi!

Hey guys!! check out this RPG me and my friend are making using pygame github.com/linkey11/Necromonster

@ChristianCareaga Thanks for sharing, but I suspect the majority of us in this chat don't know what we're looking at.

This is the chat for tabletop (pen-and-paper, non-electronic) RPGs, like Dungeons & Dragons.

@ChristianCareaga I think you're looking for Arqade. We're table top RPGs, like D&D, not video games.

ahaha oh thats true!! just thought i would share if anyone knows python but whateves ! ill share it when its done!!

oh sorry bout that guys!!! didnt know ahah ok nevermind

No problem, no harm done.

I'm sure a couple of us know what's going on in that link and are impressed.

The rest of us are just impressed.

ahaha well thank you very much and good day!

@ObliviousSage so... I should definitely try it?

@Eilleen Depends. If your group is looking for something silly to play once in a while, without much in the way of character development, then it's definitely worth trying.

Really, it can be worth it to try a lot of different systems. 3.5 isn't bad, but depending on what kind of game your group likes there may very well be something better out there. Sticking with 3.5 just because it's what you know can really limit you (though you shouldn't feel like you need to change if everyone is having fun).

@ObliviousSage I stuck with 3.5 for seven+ years simply because it never occurred to me to try anything else.

We had fun, but it was an uphill struggle the whole time.

Exactly my point. The system you use should help you play the way you want to play, not be something you have to work around.

afk

@BESW xD dont u guys play any mmorpgs?

@ObliviousSage im playing 4th ed

@ObliviousSage and I started just 2 weeks ago xD so I don't even know what I'm doing

I like 4e quite a bit myself, but it's important to remember that 4e is primarily about tactical combat; if that's not what you want out of a system, you should look for something else.

like..... for ..... I dont know what an RPG can offer.... because I;m literally new to it!

like.... more storyteling?

more character ingeraction?

@BESW You have a link to that Same Page Tool?

@ObliviousSage I always have a link to the Same Page Tool.

@Eilleen You should take a look at the link BESW just posted. That gets you started thinking about how different people play RPGs. Remember, every answer on that list is there because for some people that really is the right answer.

@ObliviousSage ok.... what is the Same Page Tool and why should I always carry this link? XDDD

It's a series of questions that will help you think about how different people play RPGs and how you like to play.

yeah I'm reading...

and I should et my group to agree on thjis??....

It's worth noting that the Tool is designed for groups to identify their playstyle together, not for individuals.

xD THIS will be interesting!

The idea is that everyone works on it together, not that everyone looks at it on their own and then argues about it.

but also... it can help me explain different motivations and styles of play

right?

In this case, @ObliviousSage is just showing it to you so you can get an idea of the kind of variety RPGs can offer.

Oh ok! i get it

oh

I saw a blog.... that kind of explained the D&D world...

D&D tries to be All RPGs to All People. This is impossible, and one of the greatest flaws of 3.5.

and basically explained that .... every part of the D&D world... was like in different dimensios

like... the Feywild was another dimension

Close enough, yes, depending on which meaning of "dimension" one uses.

headinjurytheater.com/article95a.htm

he even has a doodle xD

Mmmm.

"Dimension" doesn't quite fit the picture, though.

I just wanted to know....if it was..... somewhat true

They meet and meld and bleed together a lot more than that.

If you're in the right place when the moon is right, the Material and the Feywild are basically the same thing for a while.

If you go far down enough in the Underdark you might find yourself in the Elemental Chaos.

wow

!!!!

nice

But there are rituals that'll let you jump from one realm to another regardless of that kind of thing.

And then the EC and the Astral Sea have... subplanes.

um..... what are subplanes?

@BESW xD aren't you occupied? I do have a lot of questions

Subplanes are smaller regions that are part of the plane but are only somewhat connected and have their own special rules.

@BESW Shadowfell also has subplanes, or at least Ravenloft.

@ObliviousSage ok

so.... Planes that interconnect due to a lot of facts... like the position of the moon.... and

nterdimensional doors... or locations

I thought it was all just a big world with a lot of continents xD

No, dimensions is a better analogy, but there are a lot of ways to move between dimensions.

Naturally occurring permanent & temporary portals, magically-created permanent & temporary portals, and on rare occasions direct overlap.

ok

wow OT that was amazing

@waxeagle ?

@Eilleen I'm in and out, more out than in.

:9955883

@BESW :p OK

dont tell me whatching the game?

No, working.

I'm not a "watch the game" kind of guy.

@BESW oh :S

what do you do?

@Eilleen I've got the radio coverage on my phone :)

@Eilleen other cool feature of SE chat: you can edit your messages if you'd like, using the little arrow that appears when you hover over.

@waxeagle nahhhh but watching it SOOOO MUCH BETTER

GOD THAT LAST SHOT!!

I'm a print-media graphic designer, and I help my father with his in-situ-photography business

@Eilleen can't get ABC OTA where I live (living in the sticks has it's disadvantages)

@waxeagle oh :P well the radio is just fine then ^^ heat or spurs or just hate Lebron?

@BESW nice!

so .... like media advertising, print and design?

Aye. Posters, book/magazine layout, business cards, the like.

awesome!

@Eilleen general sports fan more like. I like seeing/hearing history :)

@waxeagle ;) I understand!

@BESW hey... does that mean you design characters too?

xD or you don't draw?

I don't generate character art professionally.

but you do draw?

My degree is in art studio, so I have some training in it, but my preferred non-design artistic styles don't lend themselves to character illustration.

:D!

it would be awesome to play d&d with someone who drew!

I generally use closure in my personal art.

nice!

in my personal art.... i wish i had a personsl art xD

maybe I could understand better how the D&D world works -.-\

I've also found that closure with interesting textures is a very efficient way to produce good copy in a hurry. [grin]

xD I bet it does

hey how old are you?

28.

how long have you been playing?

Nine or ten years.

Six-seven years in 3.5, then a year and a half in 4e, and now Fate for nearly six months.

My experience with various systems is also listed in my profile.

yeah.....

grumpy old man xD

why 'moved away' from D&D?

g'night folks. Gonna go try to sleep....though I might still be too wired from that game.

@waxeagle xD .... and that's why Ray Allen is still in the game!

@waxeagle g-night!!!

@Eilleen Copypasting from my rant that starts roughly here: D&D, for a wide number of reasons from personal blindness to economic necessity, has a long and proud tradition of claiming that its systems can be used to achieve any game experience you might desire. That is, it claims to be a universal RPG system when it is, at best, a decent combat system with some non-combat utility thrown in as an afterthought.

D&D provides no mechanical support or encouragement for collaborative character-driven storytelling. Its mechanics enforce the "murder-hobo" mentality: the purpose of existence is to gain wealth and kill things for XP, in order to be better at gaining wealth and killing things for XP. Forming emotional attachments is avoided because it provides villains with tools to influence you, while providing little benefit in terms of wealth or XP gain.