TRPG General Chat

Novian

00:32

So after reading the tome of magic: I like Binder. Decent Flavor and can be useful as suplemental power. That being said I wish to burn part of the book and just keep the binder and shadow magic parts. I Wish to be as far away from Truenamer as possible.
Its absolutely stupid.

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

02:25

@Novian Trunamer is so much fun.... from a distance. Its execution is just... no.

Magician

@Novian Shadowcasters are absolutely terrible in execution, too

Novian

@Magician havent read shadowcaster yet.

Binder seems to be the best class in that book. At least it can be used without making your head explode from the fails.

Oblivious Sage

binder is, for all practical purposes, the only class in that book

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

@Novian Yes. It's a fun class

Magician

@Novian It's, again, a cool concept... But a 6th level shadowcaster can cast, what was it... ice rays for 3d4?

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

02:31

it's not hugely... effective (unless you use a certain vestige, at which point it becomes a very high Tier II)... but... it's one of the most fun classes.

Novian

@BrianBallsun-Stanton I Suggest we add truenamer to that list of things we dont talk about. I want to forget it exists.

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

@Novian Naah. Truenamer doesn't inspire arguments.

Magician

Everyone knows they suck :)

Oblivious Sage

yeah, everyone agrees its terrible

Novian

@BrianBallsun-Stanton Its so horrid i wish to avoid it for all time.

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

02:32

It's one of those things that you find in a display case in a museum: Here lies the first instance of the truenamer class, crafted before its time. Anthropolgists have identified it as the first instance of community agreement in this ancient ceremony.

@Novian oh dude, if that breaks you... ... there are some well... things we don't talk about.

Novian

@BrianBallsun-Stanton I Dont know of them so for all intensive purposes to my mind they do not exist. also I like to put things in my "Avoid for all time" Pile. there isnt enough in there to justify having one.

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

@Novian But from a game design perspective, the truenamer is an excellent object lesson in how not to do it. Which means that not only does it not inspire argument, it inspired nuanced discussion and reflection.

Novian

@BrianBallsun-Stanton as suplemental power however it seems to shine.

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

@Novian Well, it is almost unequaled in its flexibility and endurance

The factotum is more flexible, the warlock is far more enduring. But the binder can absolutely fake... whatever (for a given and somewhat limited value of whatever)... for once a round every five rounds until she decides she's tired.

Novian

I Thought the Acererack-Heavy Pick Strategy was a little Childish though. It seems some people are fond of that tactic however.

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

02:37

So, don't be confused, you have to have a build goal for a binder just like everything else in this silly game. But... you can punt with quite a lot of effectiveness.

@Novian Meh.

Novian

I Could use Aym's Ruinous Attack to reinforce a Internal Stereotype that seems to surface in every one of the campaigns the group im with does.

We tend to use doors less often than we break them.

Oblivious Sage

@Novian: for a while my group was a mercenary band named "Kick in the Door Incorporated"

Novian

One of the more useful vestiges seems to be Zceryl. 100ft Mindsight is handy.

So is Telepathy in certain situations.

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

@Novian there are a number of handy things that you can build towards.

Novian

Indeed.

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

02:41

I've thought quite hard about having a group... made of binders.

Where people just hand around roles for the day. I imagine that it could be great great fun.

Novian

Im just experimenting with Binder and not doing anything really serious with it.

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

@Novian mmmm. I've always loved naberius. It's so amazingly useful for infiltration games (which tend to be one of my preferred means of problem solving)

Novian

Made a Warforged Binder. 30 AC and 2 Slams. Not really Binder Focused. So I scrapped it.

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

@Novian Don't worry about attacks as a binder.

Novian

Looked more like a Fighter.

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

02:44

Figure out how to fake being a caster :)

Novian

Hmm. Replace Second Slam with Some DC Enhancer.

Cant Figure out how a Warforged would use Tools Of Binding.

Gotta Prick yourself and Bleed.

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

@Novian warforged have ichor-equivalent

or take the feat to ignore special requirements

Novian

@BrianBallsun-Stanton Can it be Cited?

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

@Novian probably, but not by me :)

Novian

Ignore Special Reqs. is in that build. Tools of Binding is a magic item that boosts binding checks.

I Do hate failing checks of any sort.

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

02:47

@Novian don't. Binding checks are fun

failing them is arguably more fun than passing them

your personality changes and that's totally awesome

Novian

...Excuses... AND CHAOS!

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

@Novian no. Drama. It is actually a really good source of damatic tension for man v. himself conflict.

Makes for a good narrative.

Novian

Hmm. What else to do with binder.

Pfft. Soul lense is too Expensive for a +1 to the save DC of vestige granted abilities.

it seems Shadowcaster prestiges arent really designed to limit those who dont use Shadow Magic at all from entering them.

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

@Novian what are your requirements?

Novian

Entry Requirements
Skills: Knowledge (arcana) 5 ranks, Knowledge (the planes)
8 ranks
Feat: Shadow Familiar*
Mysteries/Spellcasting: Caster level 5th
*New feat described on page 138

Seems to be a flaw, but this is past the binder section so thats no suprise.

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

03:01

no, your requirements for your build

never build anything without an idea of requirements that you can test against

Azrael

Does anyone know where can I find a list of all DnD 4e powers, including description and else?

Novian

Mellee Capable(Just in case). Decent Armor Class(Or some way to ignore attacks entirely.). Some option for healing. Id like to avoid ToB unless absolutely neccesary.

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

@Azrael ddi compendium

Azrael

I mean, a free one

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

@Azrael we don't support illegal questions.

Azrael

03:04

lol

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

also, DDI provides the power name and book for free

@Novian Put testable numbers to all of that

Azrael

What if I do my own list, would it be illegal?

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

@Azrael yes.

It's called copyright infingement

Azrael

I'm not going to publish or sell.

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

@Azrael ::shrug:: this is not a constructive chat. We are not lawyers and you're asking for legal advise

Azrael

03:06

Yes, but I think DnD compedium doesn't show everything if you don't pay wizards monthly. And I do not have access to online payment.

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

@Azrael Buy the books and use DDI as an index

Azrael

Yeah it's a good idea.

Novian

@BrianBallsun-Stanton Level 10. AC < 20 , Proficiency with a Decent Melee weapon.

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

@Novian Interesting choice. But now you have stuff to buidl towards. Also decide Tier and tasks that you want him to be able to accomplish

Novian

hmm, Tier is a concept i do not have familiarity with.

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

03:10

@Novian Tier System for 3.5 Classes

Novian

Tiers 2 and 3 sound quite nice. Not useless but not All Powerful.

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

@Novian yep. And they describe iconic tasks.

Figure out which ones you want to play in

Novian

Hmm Melee Support and Defender are where I usually am,Im terrible at playing damage Sponge.

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

@Novian Okay, binder is not good at that game.

Novian

Suppose so. I hear they make good diplomancers. but a Diplomancer isnt needed we already have one.

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

03:14

What do you have fun with?

Novian

Controll and Boom. as well as occasional Subterfuge and sneakyness. Never say a Psion cant steal the crown jewels and get away with it. never.

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

Then go for a precocious apprentice anima mage

Novian

That feat is weird.

but usefull.

For all intensive purposes you know that spell until you gain the ability to cast 2nd level spells.

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

intents and purposes, perhaps?

@Novian yep. But it allows early PrC entry into many things

Anima Mage Handbook

so find a cha casting class that suits your proclivities... and have fun

oooh, triple-threat

check out the "triple threat binder"... looks very fun

a... touch evil

but fun.

Mind you, it's sitting over in Tier I going "Ha. Ha. Ha."

Novian

@BrianBallsun-Stanton I cannot.

KoSS seems like a neat PrC.

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

03:28

It is

Choose your anima PrC and build towards it

But if you like control and boom, go anima mage.

Novian

I Suppose Tenebrous apostate is for Cleric Binder Hybrids?

Hmm.

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

@Novian yep

Novian

Not sure how to judge that one.

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

personally, I like archivist for flavour over cleric, especially with binder

"I... learned too much."

It's the usual MCing out of cleric makes a suboptimal cleric. But fun. Always fun.

Novian

Arcivist. a Class i havent looked at.

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

03:37

@Novian It's power is 100% a function of DM fiat

are there universities and mage schools in your world?

Novian

@BrianBallsun-Stanton gennerally

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

How tightly does your DM restrict wizzy spells?

Novian

Not too tightly, mostly because the wizzard doesnt do anything bad. he Blasts things to bits.

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

@Novian Right. Well...

Oblivious Sage

@Novian: then he's Doing It Wrong (TM)

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

03:38

archivist is a function of how many cleric spells you get access to.

It is an ... unbounded... function.

And yes, your wizzard (he is insufficiently competent to only have one zed) is doing it wrong (TM) :)

Novian

The Dan Mindset is a deep trap.

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

@Novian ?

Novian

Dan is a character from AGC. Likes fire and burninating. Generally plays a Blaster quite predictable and Until the 2nd Evil Campaign portion of the comic is seen as predictable and....Well Dan.

Still its a funny comic.

Oblivious Sage

AGC?

Novian

Another Gaming Comic. Not bad if i say so.

Oblivious Sage

03:44

do you say so?

Novian

Yes I do.

Order of the Stick is also a funny comic.

For some reason my buddies like Homestuck. Never thought it was that funny.

It just wasnt funny.

doppelgreener

04:28

Hm. I have a DFRPG question.

@BESW has told me that when you're casting rituals, if they fail, you either take a huge amount of stress or unleash the magical energies into the environment around you.

I think he also described one of these things as backlash.

Is backlash what happens when you fail (no matter how you deal with it), or is backlash one of those two results specifically?

okeefe

04:50

I see how Brian's answer could work (rpg.stackexchange.com/a/24715/307) but personally I would find that a hell unending.

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

@okeefe It's the groundhog's day approach

It is a hell.

It encourages a different sort of play, that can be very fun if you get into it, but very. Very. surreal.

Oblivious Sage

@BrianBallsun-Stanton: I fixed your apparent misspelling of 2 words in that answer, please double-check that you were intending to use the words I thought you were.

okeefe

I didn't notice any misspellings...

Oh hey. :P

BESW

@JonathanHobbs Backlash is when you take the uncontrolled shift as physical or mental stress; fallout is when you hand the uncontrolled stress to the GM, to unleash on your surroundings as he sees fit.

doppelgreener

@BESW Thanks. :D

BESW

04:57

Backlash lets you continue to attempt the ritual if you survive it.

Fallout disrupts the ritual.

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

@ObliviousSage edited picture in. the misspellings look fine :)

er

the fixes of misspellings

thing

doppelgreener

I'm incorporating the backlash rules into D&D 4e's ritual casting for rituals above your level

BESW

Sweet. but damage outside of combat is largely irrelephant, so what are you using?

doppelgreener

The bard player liked those modifications a lot, but suggested that there should be a risk of failure.

Healing surges?

Not sure yet.

@BESW Does backlash force a re-roll or does it come with automatic success at huge personal cost?

Oblivious Sage

@BrianBallsun-Stanton: I like that answer; there's actually an old AD&D2e Ravenloft adventure that has a portion that works that way (there's a lich who sends the party back in time to a specific event, and he keeps doing it until they change the event the way he wants, but he won't tell them what he wants them to do).

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

05:00

@JonathanHobbs There's little point, TBH. Unless your players tend to push adventuring days longer than most groups.

@ObliviousSage oh, it's a fairly solid trope.

And the timer, the big red coutning down timer... is just so delicious.

I'd never play this way "normally"

but ... for certain kinds of games... it's so much fun

If a ritual fails and you want it to mean something, have plot happen.

doppelgreener

@BrianBallsun-Stanton I was worried about as much. They could just hang around til they could make an extended rest, I guess.

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

@JonathanHobbs yep. And constant timers tend to get silly.

BESW

@JonathanHobbs The spell still goes off as intended.

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

@BESW Use mousguard's "Yes but"

BESW

Basically, backlash is when you actually do manage to keep the excess energies channeled into the ritual--by using your body/mind as a conduit.

doppelgreener

05:02

I think I just thought of an alternative.

BESW

Fallout is when you let the excess energies loose like dropping a hot potato, not contributing to the spell but also not running amok in your own body.

doppelgreener

Instead of using healing surges, you lose maximum healing surge capacity (for a while). But I suspect that's not a good idea: it sounds to me like it'd not serve as a drawback, it would just slow down sessions.

BESW

Personally, I'd be inclined to penalize dailies.

doppelgreener

@BrianBallsun-Stanton This is probably the best thing to do at the moment.

BESW

@JonathanHobbs Aye.

Oblivious Sage

05:05

I'm bored and I have no books to read. Can anyone suggest some good fiction? I like most types of sci-fi, urban fantasy (e.g. Dresden Files; it's OK if it's romance-y as long as it's not erotica like Anita Blake), and some fantasy (preferably very original setting & relatively dark tone; Malazan Book of the Fallen rather than Tolkien).

BESW

Otherwise, sap dailies or healing surge totals and tie their recovery to milestones.

@ObliviousSage Dragons of the Cuyahoga

Oblivious Sage

Oh, and no series that aren't finished yet.

(shakes fist furiously at George R. R. Martin)

doppelgreener

@ObliviousSage Hyperion.

BESW

Death Gate Cycle, the Chalion series, Vorkosigan Saga...

doppelgreener

It's a classic and it's the most beautiful writing I've ever been exposed to.

(a modern classic, mind)

Oblivious Sage

05:07

@JonathanHobbs: You mean Hyperion, Fall of Hyperion, Endymion, Rise of Endymion? Already read those; the first 2 were decent, the second 2 were better.

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

@ObliviousSage Most stuff by David Drake.

Everything by Charles Stross

Just bloody everything by that man.

BESW

Dark is Rising Sequence

Young Wizards.

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

We need more requirements.

Oblivious Sage

@BrianBallsun-Stanton: I read Accelerando & Wireless by Stross, they were decent but didn't make me salivate for more.

BESW

Go old-school, read Carmilla and the original Phantom of the Opera.

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

05:10

@ObliviousSage Yeah. his early work is very different. Still interesting. his laundry series is bloody fantastic as computation as magic, his family affair series is fascinating look at the nature of technology and tech-transfer, and his halting state series is challenging and fantastic.

doppelgreener

@ObliviousSage I do mean those. I am glad you've read them but drat, you don't get to read them now. c(:

BESW

Digger is finished, and available for free online or for money in print.

doppelgreener

Harry Potter. :D

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

potter and the methods of rationality!

Go. Read it. Read it now.

doppelgreener

Or Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Yes, hahaha

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

05:11

::shifty eyes::

Hey, @BESW ::psst:: Cue!

Or if you've read that already, Harry potter and the Natural 20 is droll.

BESW

....if we're doing fanfic, I'll suggest the truly excellent fan novel Lust Over Pendle and its accompanying novels/short stories.

Oblivious Sage

OK, lemme list some favorites: (sci-fi) Honor Harrington series, CJ Cherryh's Faded Sun trilogy, World War Z, anything by Vernor Vinge, Stephen Baxter's Xelee setting, Ann Aguirre's Sirantha Jax books, CS Friedman's In Conquest Born & This Alien Shore, most Heinlein

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

@ObliviousSage okay, Drake's RCN series then, absolutely.

mmm, if you like rainbows end, go read Halting State by stross...

BESW

@ObliviousSage Then go read the Vorkosigan Saga and/or the Chalion series, both by Bujold.

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

mmm, most heinlein isn't very... useful...

which Heinlein do you hate?

cause I don't know of anyone who likes all of him.

BESW

05:13

@BrianBallsun-Stanton <snark> Heinlein is useful?

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

@BESW As a search criteria, yeah.

But... it's important to know which hat he's wearing.

Oblivious Sage

(fantasy) Malazan Book of the Fallen, Game of Thrones (if it ever finishes), all of Jacqueline Carey's fantasy, Lev Grossman's The Magicians, Joe Abercrombie's First Law series

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

Like, starshop troopers Heinlin is different from short story heinlin is different from young adult heinlein is different from WTF metafictive Heinlein.

@ObliviousSage Mmm, Cook's Wizard's bane is fun.

Pratchett, of course.

BESW

Sandman?

Oblivious Sage

@BrianBallsun-Stanton: i don't know that there's any i hate, but i particularly like The Moon is a Harsh Mistress, Starship Troopers, and Friday

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

05:15

@ObliviousSage ,... so close

okay, so if you like moon... mmmm... Murray Leinster.

Troopers is a toughie.

Oblivious Sage

@BESW: i own the TPBs of the full Sandman series, and am working on acquiring the Death minis, then i'll move on to Lucifer

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

I'd... actually point you to stross's Halting State + Rule 34 on that one... it's not quite the same kind of polemic... but it provoked similiar "hrmmmmm" from me.

Oblivious Sage

@BrianBallsun-Stanton: oh, also John Scalzi's Old Man's War series and Haldeman's Forever War

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

and friday... ugh. I cast thee from my sight.

oh, friday wasn't cat... okay, right

BESW

I'm trying to think if I ever managed to finish any Heinlein.

Oblivious Sage

05:17

oh, and most actual sci-fi from Neal Stephenson (Snow Crash, Diamond Age, Anathem; not Cryptonomicon, which was not really sci-fi and was just OK)

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

mmmm... friday alienation alienation... mmmm..... Bolo series? mmmm... no... mmmm

Oblivious Sage

@BrianBallsun-Stanton: you mean The Cat Who Walked Through Walls? that one's interesting, but not one i ever feel much desire to go back and re-read

BESW

The Eyre Affair?

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

@ObliviousSage yes. I wasn't particularly into friday, and then it gets lumped into my "vile heinlein" pile.

BESW

Have you tried the various iterations of Asimov?

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

05:18

@BESW not bad for metafictive, but you have to be in the right mood. Simon Hawke does an excellent 3 book metafictive trilogy

gods, Asimov, ... some of his stuff is quite good and philosophical though

Dick, of course.

Oblivious Sage

i like Friday up until the end, which feels very "i don't feel like writing this any more, so i'll wave my hands and tie up all the loose ends in a hurry"

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

can't beat him for psychotropic alienation.

@ObliviousSage yes!

Most heinlein books should just be trimmed at 2/3rds their length with hedge clippers. Then they'd be absolutely fantastic books.

It's that last third where you can see him going "well.... shit. Now what?"

BESW

(Clever short story, dully expanded clever short story, clever sociological novel, dull authorial-insert sequel to clever sociological novel.)

Oblivious Sage

@BrianBallsun-Stanton: for Asimov, i've read pretty much all the Foundation stuff, which was so-so; i prefer actual main characters

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

Again! AND AGAIN! AND AGAIN!

@ObliviousSage yes.

Mmm, based on all of this, for fun, Stross' Laundry series, for thinky, Stross' Halting state + Rule 34.

BESW

05:20

@ObliviousSage I had the most fun with his Encyclopedia Brown IN SPACE short stories, and the Robot series.

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

It... feels like it would fit from this conversation.

Oblivious Sage

@BrianBallsun-Stanton: check out Neutron Star; Heinlein's estate found an old half-finished manuscript and gave it to Spider Robinson to turn into an actual book

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

@ObliviousSage oh, Spider has written some good stuff

his stardancers omnibus is fascinating and quite novel

And his Very Bad Deaths is ... uuugggh

Does what it says on the tin, really.

Oblivious Sage

has he? the Callahan's stuff is the only ones i've read, which is amusing but feels a lot like filler

BESW

Speaking of spiders, Transmetropolitan is fun if you can get past the rabid slavering agenda-beasts.

Oblivious Sage

05:22

@BESW: read it, one of my faves

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

@ObliviousSage haven't read that. But was quite impressed by stardancers

Oblivious Sage

@BESW: for comics i'm a big fun of Runaways, Luna Brothers' The Sword, DMZ, Fables, Preacher, anything by Johnathan Hickman, Empowered; for manga i really like Medaka Box & Battle Angel Alita, and Death Note & Battle Royale were both quite good (except for the end of Death Note)

BESW

My comics reading is spattery at best, and my manga experience is nearly nonexistent.

Oblivious Sage

Battle Royale is quite good (both the manga & the novel it's based on, which you can now get an English translation of)

BESW

Unfortunately, it sounds like our tastes don't collide very often; while we circulate the same genres, our preferences for theme and philosophy are pretty far apart.

Ummm. Metro 2033 was beautiful, if you want a post-Soviet exploration of Russian philosophy.

Oblivious Sage

05:27

if you like Sandman, you should check out the spinoffs, most of which were quite good, particularly most of the Death minis and Lucifer

I played the Metro 2033 game, which was interesting, hadn't realized it was based on a book.

BESW

yeah. It's not a book that can translate well into a game.

Imagine a Russian post-apocalyptic Gulliver's Travels.

Oblivious Sage

that sounds different

BESW

But instead of travelling to far-off lands, he's just going from station to station in the Metro.

Oblivious Sage

(from most other things, not different from the game)

BESW

That's not an accurate depiction, but I don't think it can be compared to anything without invoking the 19th-century travelogue and the great Russian philosopher-authors.

Oblivious Sage

05:30

hmm, maybe i'll check that one out then

@BrianBallsun-Stanton: so you recommend Stross' Landry books, Halting State & Rule 34?

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

@ObliviousSage as a first pass, yes.

There's a bunch of other stuff, but yeah.

BESW

have you tried Lois McMaster Bujold?

Oblivious Sage

no, though i've heard of the Miles Vorkosigan books before

BESW

She peaked with the Chalion books, but the Vorkosigan Saga might be more up your alley.

Granted, the last few Vorkosigan novels started feeling very predictable.

Oblivious Sage

hmmm, we'll see then

BESW

05:33

I love the Chalion stuff.

Oblivious Sage

i'm not a fan of predictable, that's why i gave up on Discworld & Xanth

BESW

Very simple but deep magical realism.

Oblivious Sage

they started feeling very formulaic

BESW

@ObliviousSage [snerk] I gave up on Xanth because Anthony a) is a creepy, creepy man and b) was quickly just stitching minimal plot around the puns his readers sent in.

Oblivious Sage

yeah, Discworld was better, but it still drifted into formulaic stuff; and Anthony, other than some admitted creepiness, actually has some good stuff, though it's been so long since i read it that i cant even remember the names (the series with the planet that has a magic version & a sci-fi version, and some guy gets swapped)

BESW

05:36

What I love about Chalion (and the Vorkosigan stuff that isn't about Miles) is that they aren't about young men in the prime of their lives.

Chalion is about beaten-up escaped galley slaves, and middle-aged widows who don't want to spend their life defined by their widowhood. They ache and want, they're petty and they're noble in spite of themselves.

What about the Death Gate Cycle? Read that?

Solid characters, and a setting that delights in subverting genre expectations.

Also, it was designed to be seven books long, with a story arc, and when it was done the series ended. I respect that.

Oblivious Sage

no, i'll add that one to the list

BESW

(I'm not talking about anything that's still being added to, by the way.)

Most of my reading is at least a decade old, usually at least two.

....this is partly because I'm more often interested in mysteries than sf/f these days.

(Lovejoy, Campion, Fandorin.)

Oh, it's not exactly within your specifications, but the Doctor Who audio dramas are top-notch.

Oblivious Sage

i never got into mysteries very much, though i have enjoyed some urban fantasy series that were relatively mystery-like (Dresden Files, Patricia Briggs' Mercy books), but i usually found those to be better when they focused on character development & advancing an overarching plot rather than "which of the 3-5 new characters in this book is the bad guy???"

BESW

@ObliviousSage Then you might find the ones I mentioned up your alley; the best mysteries are really character studies.

Campion in particular is considered the cream of the British mystery novel.

Oblivious Sage

oh, if you guys like HP (and HP fanfic) you might be interested in Lev Grossman's The Magicians, which is a darker & more realistic take on getting into wizard school and what happens once there; it really asks "What kind of person would actually get in, how would learning magic change them, and what would they do after they graduated?"

BESW

05:47

Allingham wrote them contemporarily, and reading them in order is like getting a personal tour through the evolution of British society from the late 20s to the early 50s.

Oblivious Sage

the sequel, The Magician Kings, wasn't as good unforunately

BESW

@ObliviousSage You might like Lust Over Pendle, as it does something in a similar vein: it's HP fanfic written by a woman who grew up the same era and culture as Rowling, and explores some of the Unfortunate Implications of the series, while still being uproarously funny.

(There's also a shorter tie-in fic with the Vorkosigan Saga, which is what put me on to Bujold in the first place.)

Oblivious Sage

well, time for me to get some sleep; thanks all for the recommendations

BESW

Ta!

Aether

07:28

@ObliviousSage I really like Brandon Sanderson's work - original settings and magic systems that work to well-defined rules. Not really dark, though. It takes a while to set up the plots, but the pay-off is always massively worth it in my opinion.

You can try one of his books (Warbreaker) before you buy, so you might want to try there first: brandonsanderson.com/book/Warbreaker/page/20/…

Also, on the urban fantasy front, I enjoyed the Night Watch series by Sergei Lukyanenko.

BESW

09:08

@Jonn_Underwood Nice. Try drawing it again, but turn the watch upside down. With any luck, your brain will have a harder time seeing what it expects to see (like words and letters), and it'll be easier for you to draw the shapes that are actually there.

BESW

09:36

in Aww!, 2 mins ago, by BESW

Frog is best squeaky toy, apparently.

BESW

11:49

Watching the latest HOPR while I do last-minute tax panic, and... "This book contains all that we do not know."

Suddenly I want to figure out how an item like that could be useful/obstructive/amusing/plot-driving in an RPG.

Right off the bat: Define "we," and what happens when you read it?

Aether

14:38

@BESW All of it is unknown, but most of it is also not useful.

As you read it, the words disappear. As you forget, they reappear.

But not necessarily in the same place

BESW

Not that it would be helpful if they did, since you forgot.

Aether

@BESW You might remember what it was concerning, but forgot the details. :P

Other things are also disappearing as discoveries are made, and old secrets reappear as the last people to know them die

Would certainly make for an interesting plot device

BESW

Hmm.

As a vague monitoring device, skimming the page and watching the headers change could be interesting.

Aether

Or the table of contents/index :P

BESW

Psh, that kind of thing doesn't have either of those.

Otherwise it wouldn't be easy to accidentally read something you shouldn't while looking for what you want.

Aether

14:45

@BESW But if no-one knows the things it contains, it must have an index of things it contains... because no-one knows it! :O

BESW

There's nothing says anything about the form of the information it contains.

An unsorted, unlisted random list of its contents would be the best I'd hope for, and it's more likely that the existence of knowing in the tome counts, and a list is unnecessary.

Also, the granularity of detail might be interesting to mess with.

Magician

I may have gone slightly mad. I'm now writing the post on DRYH-Portal crossover entirely in character of Cave Johnson.

Aether

Combustible lemons?

Magician

That Cave Johnson, yes

BESW

On the scale of crossover portal madness, you aren't anywhere near "Pinkie Pie is an escaped Aperture Science product."

First-person Pinkie is scary. Her inner dialogue is canonically illustrated in felt.

Hmm. Moon rocks.

I should start brainstorming soon about what might actually be happening in my DFRPG campaign.

Oblivious Sage

17:14

@Aether: I read Alcatraz vs the Evil Librarians, which was so-so but admittedly targeted at young adults, and i've heard good things about Sanderson's writing finishing up Wheel of Time, so maybe i'll check that out

Aether

Ah, I haven't read his YA stuff.

I've read Elantris, Warbreaker, and the Mistborn books (the trilogy, and the standalone). I have Way of Kings sitting on my "to-read" list

I never read any Wheel of Time, but Sanderson was recommended to me after my brother read his WoT books.

Avner Shahar-Kashtan

I'm re-reading Wheel of Time now.

Well, I've gone past "rereading" now. I originally cracked and stopped in frustration and anger after the 8th book, the first time around.

Now that it's complete, I've decided to try to see it through.

I'm in the 9th now.

Oblivious Sage

@Avner: yeah, i think that was where i started losing interest; isn't the 8th book the one that's basically a "we've got so many plot threads going no reasonable person could keep track of them all, so let's spend a book just refreshing the readers on what everyone is up to"?

Avner Shahar-Kashtan

I am hoping that Sanderson's last books will somehow take Jordan's work, leave the good bits, and excise the terribleness out of it.

Oblivious Sage

i've heard good things about the end from friends that have already finished it all

Avner Shahar-Kashtan

17:19

@ObliviousSage Pretty much every book after the 3rd had pages upon pages of rehashed material.

Oblivious Sage

i need to pick up the last 2 books & then go back through the entire series

Avner Shahar-Kashtan

And, of course, the root cause of my annoyance is his approach to characters and gender.

Oblivious Sage

yeah, i read up through, Winter's Heart i think

Aether

Mar 4 at 16:11, by Simon Gill

Thankfully, 12,13 and 14 do manage to start resolving plots. Sanderson all but takes a flamethrower to the danglers.

Oblivious Sage

yeah, i heard he tied off loose plot threads fast

Aether

17:20

I found that when looking for my last Sanderson recommendation :P

Avner Shahar-Kashtan

If Jordan had finished the series himself, I would never have tried it again.

Right now I am constantly surprised when he suddenly veers off to a character he hasn't mentioned in a while. Poor Mat has been stuck in Ebou Dar for a book and a half.

okeefe

17:57

I think the problem with rpg.stackexchange.com/q/24721/307 is that agreeing on "traditional" is an argument in itself.

Avner Shahar-Kashtan

@okeefe My personal tradition, passed from father to son, is to play non-narrative GM-less games played naked by 15 players with 6 characters each. D&D? That's innovative!

okeefe

Non-narrative, eh?

Avner Shahar-Kashtan

@okeefe A narrative is for the weak! All plot must happen at once, suddenly, and without provocation!

3

Oblivious Sage

18:16

@AvnerShahar-Kashtan: i dunno, provoking a plot can be entertaining too

Aether

21:03

Sometimes I love random loot tables

Fighting demons - +4 Holy Axiomatic Heavy Mace

Samuel Russell

22:31

@BrianBallsun-Stanton my thoughts precisely

BESW

@ObliviousSage rinkworks.com/bookaminute/b/jordan.chaos.shtml

Samuel Russell

@AvnerShahar-Kashtan applying the three unities to an RPG scenario might lead to an awesome larp, awesome like Ajax killing sheep thinking them greeks.

BESW

And then, rinkworks.com/bookaminute/b/jordan.winters.shtml, rinkworks.com/bookaminute/b/jordan.crossroads.shtml, rinkworks.com/bookaminute/b/jordan.newspring.shtml

Samuel Russell

I think you should put a warning that you're posting crack-grade addictive content before you post crack-grade addictive content.

BESW

It's not like I linked to TV Tropes.

Book-A-Minute is at the very least finite.

Samuel Russell

22:38

There are finite sets that to permute take longer than the space of a human lifetime.

I've been warned of your clever programmers tricks, look: the algorithm is linear, but the input data set is greater than the number of words ever written.

Aether

Nice site. rinkworks.com/bookaminute/b/jordan.newspring.shtml

BESW

I am no programmer, sir! Retract your filthy slur at once!

Samuel Russell

I'm sorry I called you an adept trickster for the modern age!

BESW

In that case, please note that there are also classics and childrens'/YA summaries.

Samuel Russell

I started with classics. Thankfully bigotry will save me from the YA section.

BESW

22:45

Huckleberry Finn has possibly the Best Summary Ever.

Samuel Russell

22:58

I find it interesting that I classify Huckleberry Finn as a childrens work, whereas they classify it as a classic.

BESW

The history of books designed specifically for younger audiences is surprisingly recent.

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