TRPG General Chat

12:00 AM

@SevenSidedDie Well, nowadays it's also a matter of LDS orthodoxy also. At the time Utah made the decision, a lot of the Mormon upper crust were polygamous families, and they all abandoned it within a generation. Now it's been, like, three-four more generations?

AFAIK, some of the polygamists still consider themselves mainline LDS, but the church certainly doesn't accept them.

John Craven

In fact, the fact that the Mormons did the about-face on the issue back in the 1890s and codified it into law probably means that the median Utah'an is if anything more opposed to polygamy than the median non-Utah'an American (due to them feeling as though the mainstream unfairly lumps them in with polygamists in their lists of reasons why LDS is not True Christianity or whatever).

Alex P

@JohnCraven Exactly.

SevenSidedDie

@AlexP Isn't the church required to officially condemn polygamy?

John Craven

"Required" is a strong word for 2013.

Alex P

@SevenSidedDie Well, there are different ways they could spin that position. I think their religious viewpoint is more like "This is a special calling and nobody has been called to it recently."

John Craven

12:02 AM

In the 19th century, yeah, the US basically told them that if they wanted to become a state and not have the US come in and start arresting people, they had to find a way to condemn it.

If memory serves, the official LDS stance on polygamy is something more along the lines of "I just had a vision, guys! Joseph Smith was wrong. Actually, polygamy is really, really bad, so render unto Caesar what is Caesar's and all that."

SevenSidedDie

@JohnCraven I imagine that there would be significant legal snarls if they tried to reverse that now, though. Not to mention internal cultural momentum. (All just speculation, yeah. I only see this from a distance, since Mormonism is almost not a thing here.)

Alex P

@JohnCraven The church has a complicated relationship with Joseph Smith in general. I'd characterize it more like "the communities that we formed before moving out west were experimental and not the pattern for our lives today."

BESW

For the record, we do have at least one Mormon in chat.

John Craven

It is kind of funny that this happened after the Mormons were instrumental in passing the anti-gay marriage legislation in California.

SevenSidedDie

@JohnCraven Yeah, that's one of the things that puts me in puzzle-working mode. What's going on there is probably the stuff of an interesting novel.

BESW

12:09 AM

Don't tell Dan Brown.

John Craven

Meh, the Mormons are around 1800 years too new for Dan Brown to care about them.

Alex P

@JohnCraven Naw. He's really into Masons and such. Who are very much associated with the same period of 19th-century American spiritual transformation.

BESW

Man, the Italian Renaissance is a lot older than I thought.

John Craven

Well, he's got the whole "we trace our roots back to Jesus" thing happening too.

SevenSidedDie

@BESW I think we've been non-judgemental so far. Though I could see being too clinical being problematic too. If anything is too near a line, I'm happy to apologise to the audience and step back.

John Craven

12:11 AM

Also granted the Templars are in there as well somewhere, and obviously they aren't from Roman times.

SevenSidedDie

@JohnCraven They have a strong Holy Roman Empire connection though, don't they?

Alex P

He has other books, though.

The Lost Symbol

The Lost Symbol is a 2009 novel written by American writer Dan Brown. It is a thriller set in Washington, D.C., after the events of The Da Vinci Code, and relies on Freemasonry for both its recurring theme and its major characters. Released on September 15, 2009, it is the third Brown novel to involve the character of Harvard University symbologist Robert Langdon, following 2000's Angels & Demons and 2003's The Da Vinci Code. for the first six weeks of its release, and remained on the list for 29 weeks. As of January 2013, there are 30 million copies in print worldwide. Plot Harvard sy...

John Craven

Maybe through conspiracy theories and somesuch

SevenSidedDie

(Which was "neither holy, Roman, nor an Empire", as the almost-accurate joke goes.)

Alex P

It's all Freemasons and founding fathers and stuff, IIRC.

BESW

12:13 AM

I don't know how he feels about this conversation, just thought I'd mention his presence. If he wanted to illuminate our ignorance that'd be cool.

Alex P

And some weird Orientalized magic guy. Because EWW DAN BROWN STOP IT.

John Craven

but the real actual Knights Templar were exterminated by a French king in the 1300s

BESW

But I suspect he'd rather keep his head down.

John Craven

I haven't even tried to read any Dan Brown books... as a history nerd they just look like they'd piss me off.

Alex P

@JohnCraven There's a really good blog making fun of them. Let me try to dig it up...

SevenSidedDie

12:16 AM

@BESW Thank you for being an outsider keeping watch, then. In general, asking the possibly-persecuted to police the possible-persecuters is unreasonable.

BESW

Brown's not bad as an Indiana Jones meets James Bond type thing.

The problem comes when he tries to be serious about his topics.

SevenSidedDie

@JohnCraven I haven't either. Too much whiff of sensationalisation of conspiracy rather than honest fiction. I may be judging the books by their coverage though.

BESW

The man can't tell the difference between a verse and a stanza, and he can't read a map.

John Craven

Hmm. I like Indiana Jones. I like James Bond. I suspect I would hate, hate, hate Dan Brown.

SevenSidedDie

@JohnCraven On that note, I just finished Wolf Hall. I rather enjoyed it, but I come to it as not much a serious student of history. I wonder how actual historians feel about it?

John Craven

12:17 AM

Ohhh Wolf Hall is fantastic.

SevenSidedDie

@JohnCraven I have to admit that I learned more about the historical events around Henry VIII from this bit of well-researched fiction than from all the rest of my history exposure combined.

John Craven

And as a history nerd if not someone with a doctorate in the subject, it's pretty accurate. Obviously, there's no proof that the conversations between Cromwell and More ever happened, and if they did I'm sure they played out nothing like the way they did in the book. But it sure feels right, if that makes any sense.

Alex P

My main contribution to the LDS conversation is this: if you've not met many Mormons, it's easy to stereotype them as a very monolithic thing; but, well, think of Catholics (who most people in the western world have interacted with fairly thoroughly) -- just because the church believes something doesn't mean every member you encounter will agree with it, or make a big deal out of it.

SevenSidedDie

@JohnCraven Totally makes sense.

@AlexP That's one thing that I've got fairly strongly from what little exposure I've got via political intersts -- there is as much variety of opinion and faith as there is among other Christian denominations.

John Craven

I have a sense that if Mantel made any "error" it was in portraying Cromwell as too much a man of the 21st century and not a lying, scheming bastard in a world full of lying, scheming bastards. But I'm not sure how much of a criticism that really is. I mean, I'm not sure I could pick out anybody from that period I'd want to get a beer with in reality. It doesn't make the stories not fascinating though.

SevenSidedDie

12:22 AM

@JohnCraven From some of the commentary around it, I gather that was a deliberate choice, since almost every other portrayal of him is incredibly hostile.

John Craven

By the way, I have to recommend Neal Stephenson's Baroque Cycle if you like that general period of history (well, the Cycle starts about 150 years later but still).

True @SevenSidedDie, Cromwell has been incredibly demonized since that period for some reason or other. Reminds me a little bit of the treatment of Tad Stevens after the Civil War. Dude went from being known as an incredibly strong and principled man to being an evil lout by the 1930s.

SevenSidedDie

@JohnCraven Ohgod the Baroque Cycle. I haven't been able to pick up Stephenson since I finally got through Cryptonomicon. Thoroughly enjoyed it, but wow, what a dense tome. I miss his Zodiac and Diamond Age stuff.

John Craven

If you liked Cryptonomicon, Stephenson included all the main characters (Bobby Shaftoe, Enoch Root, and Jack Waterhouse) in BC. And yes, it's historical fiction.

SevenSidedDie

@JohnCraven Possibly More himself's fault? AFAIK, he's now credited with wholly fabricating our popular conception of Richard III. Perhaps he got in the last laugh with Cromwell.

@JohnCraven Yeah, my wife loves the BC, and would happily see me reading it. I just... I don't know if I can make such a life commitment anymore. ;)

John Craven

@SevenSidedDie I think there's also an element of wanting to blame all of Henry VIII's aides for bad behavior on the part of Henry VIII. Kings are supposed to be beyond reproach and all that so historically speaking when a king made a bad decision he was said to have bad advisors, not to be a bad person.

BESW

12:27 AM

I'm afraid Stephenson bored me to tears.

SevenSidedDie

(Hm, missed the rep cap yesterday by 15. UTC is not kind to the Pacific timezone stack user.)

BESW

Preach it, Seven.

John Craven

Richard III was sort of an exception but that is a. mainly due to Shakespeare, and b. primarily because he was writing about the guy whose throne the sitting queen's grandfather usurped.

Alex P

::waits patiently for this discussion to shift to Sexy Tudors:: ;)

SevenSidedDie

@JohnCraven That makes sense. And though that would only be a big motivator in the few decades after a reign, later it would just be established wisdom.

BESW

12:29 AM

SevenSidedDie

@AlexP I found it very hard to read Wolsey as Mantel described him instead of seeing Sam Neill. :)

John Craven

@SevenSidedDie Yeah... this meme is even more pronounced in China. They have this thing called "Tien", which basically refers to a mandate from Heaven giving kings the power to rule until Heaven is unhappy with them. Pretty much every time there's a dynasty change, the first ruler is constantly talking about how crappy the last guy was, how he violated the mandate, and why he had to be taken out.

Alex P

I adore the first two seasons of Sexy Tudors. It's not as great after that, but still serviceable.

SevenSidedDie

So much love for Beaton.

Alex P

She posted a new one semi-recently. Edward the Black Prince.

John Craven

12:31 AM

@BESW I laffed.

SevenSidedDie

@AlexP I think I'm ready to watch it again, now that I've got a firmer grip on the people and politics of the time from Wolf Hall. I couldn't keep anyone straight before.

John Craven

Heh, the biggest complaint I've heard about Wolf Hall is that you need a map to tell the characters apart.

I didn't have that problem but again, I kind of studied the subject in school.

Alex P

@SevenSidedDie They helpfully conflate people for you! My wife and I have a joke. "Sir Francis Mmm-mmm-mmm-mmm."

He is clearly supposed to be Sir Francis Drake in every way, except he is just some other guy.

The thing that really made that show, to me, was great casting. Henry and Anne work. So well. It's the chemistry that's entirely missing from Game of Thrones.

SevenSidedDie

@JohnCraven Yeah. The habit of reusing first names so much, and of calling someone their title sometimes and their name others and part of their name others does make some sections hard to determine.

John Craven

I couldn't get into the GoT books. Call me a Philistine.

BESW

12:35 AM

[Snerk]

Alex P

@JohnCraven <3

SevenSidedDie

There's even a lampshade on it at one point, when they're talking about Mary-Henry's-daughter and Mary Boleyn and then a statement is made about Mary, and they have to correct each other who they meant.

BESW

Try reading The Dawn-Breakers.

John Craven

@SevenSidedDie To people who had that issue with Wolf Hall, I have to say: never try to read Tolstoy.

SevenSidedDie

@JohnCraven That bad?

Alex P

12:36 AM

@JohnCraven Tolstoy is, like, the lamest of Russian writers anyway.

John Craven

War and Peace is a Great Novel and it's not a bad read either but it is freaking impossible to remember who the characters are.

SevenSidedDie

@JohnCraven I really liked them. But wow, did they ever start slow.

John Craven

They all have like 15 names and Tolstoy will use any of them at any time.

Alex P

I think Game of Thrones has a mess of problems. The books blew me away when I read them like 10-15 years ago. But now that I'm older I see so many things I despise about them and the show.

SevenSidedDie

@JohnCraven Russian names are complicated to start with, if you're unfamiliar with the structure. Less than Mexican names though.

John Craven

12:37 AM

My thing with GoT isn't so much that they're slow, it's that when I want to read about conniving backstabbing reality show jackasses, I'll read a history book.

SevenSidedDie

@JohnCraven Yeah, but then you know how it ends. ;)

John Craven

Getting there is always the fun part as far as I'm concerned.

SevenSidedDie

@AlexP I'm new to them this year; I'd be interested to hear that perspective.

Alex P

I have a really long list of complaints about GoT that boils down to "The 'realism' is mislaid and covers a huge host of the usual fantasy sins."

John Craven

Speaking of history, I'm currently reading (and almost done with) History of the Ancient World by Susan Wise Bauer. There was, um, a lot of poisoning that went on back in the day.

Alex P

12:39 AM

@SevenSidedDie How far have you read/watched?

@JohnCraven Just like CK2 :D

SevenSidedDie

@AlexP Ah. Yeah, there's a lot of that. What I like about it is that the characters feel very human, all else be (mostly) damned. Having just come off finishing the Wheel of Time series, it was like suddenly seeing in 3D for the first time.

John Craven

@AlexP Heh, yeah, or the actual medieval period that CK2 is based on.

Alex P

@SevenSidedDie Yes. this is how I felt when reading GoT after stuff like Dragonlance.

SevenSidedDie

@AlexP (OMG CK2. Best game.)

@AlexP I've finished the books and series-so-far.

John Craven

speaking of awesome fantasy series to read besides GoT...

Gentlemen Bastards

SOOOO good.

SevenSidedDie

12:42 AM

@AlexP (I'm currently establishing the British Empire in the name of Wales. Haven't resorted to any poisonings yet, somehow.)

Alex P

@SevenSidedDie Excellent. So I don't have to worry about spoilers too much.

(Should i make a new room for my spiel?)

It's not gonna be an overly long spiel, I think.

But spoilers.

SevenSidedDie

@AlexP At least not for me. Yeah, a room might be wise because spoilers.

Alex P

one sec...

SevenSidedDie

@JohnCraven That looks intriguing. And I'm currently between books... though I should really be re-reading Undermountain for my Dungeon World game.

Alex P

Crap I created it in the wrong place.

Can you move rooms?

John Craven

12:46 AM

@SevenSidedDie Those books are really, really good, no lie.

Alex P

chat.stackexchange.com/rooms/info/12091/…

SevenSidedDie

@AlexP I don't know? But I can probably read it anyway, wherever it is.

Alex P

Yeah, it's just connected to B&CG which is kinda stupid.

John Craven

The series is basically a mash-up of fantasy and the caper/heist genre (think Ocean's Eleven with a touch of Maverick and The Rockford Files thrown in).

SevenSidedDie

@JohnCraven Well then. Library hold: placed.

Alex P

12:48 AM

Anyway, here is a room for people who don't mind spoilers. (AND don't mind me saying negative things about Game of Thrones, a bit.)

2

SevenSidedDie

@AlexP If I star that, people will totally let curiosity get the better of them and spoiler themselves...

Alex P

1:41 AM

I have a Sexy Tudors drinking game. It may ruin the show for you a bit, though. One of those "Once you see it, you can't unsee it" things.

SevenSidedDie

1:54 AM

@AlexP What with all the ahistoricity (word?) of The Tudors, I don't think that'd be a problem.

Alex P

@SevenSidedDie Okay, here it is.

Lobster Clasp.

The show was made with a variety of characters and oufits, on a budget, by basically buying up a crapton of premade costumes from a bunch of other productions.

Those costumes vary in quality.

SevenSidedDie

@AlexP As in, a clothing clasp in the shape of a lobster?

Alex P

One of Henry's mainstays has a big silver chain. If you look kinda closely, you will see the lobster clasp.

REpeatedly.

As in this:

SevenSidedDie

OH. A lobster clasp, not a lobster-animal-shaped ornament. Hah.

Alex P

yes

SevenSidedDie

1:58 AM

(I didn't know they were called that. I've always called them carabiners.

Alex P

It's the kind that looks less like a carabiner. The long stick with that bit on the end, you know?

SevenSidedDie

@AlexP Now I want to watch The Tudors. But das Kind is lobbying for a footie match.

... and The Tudors is definitely a post-bedtime show.

Alex P

Yes.

LitheOhm

2:53 AM

@opacitizen ah, k. I got nothin' then lol.

Alex P

3:50 AM

►

^ Game of Thrones if they made it in 1996.

BESW

4:02 AM

Huh. I just got a downvote on this.

...heh. That wasn't a plea for upvotes, but thank you.

Oh, and it's nice to see you in chat, @SevenSidedDie!

Alex P

4:19 AM

I'll second that.

Joshua Aslan Smith

4:37 AM

hello everyone

weird that recommendation questions are off topic on boardgames.SE

BESW

Rec questions are difficult to handle in most SE contexts.

Some SE sites have decided it's not worth the hassle required to make sure they're quality.

Joshua Aslan Smith

yeah, but here was a guy who clearly had a burning question and was looking for good advice and had nailed down a lot of what he wanted in the question without prompting

6

A: What card game is popular today, fun for kids, and is a worthy investment at a reasonable cost to my wallet?

Collectible Card Games (CCG) wax and wane in popularity.... For example, both Pokemon an Yu-Gi-Oh! cards were extremely popular over a decade ago. There are still sales of these cards and older cards sell well, but both games have shrunk considerably. The exception: Magic: The Gathering which ...

the question and my answer for it

The meta that the one guy who closed it links to just feels off, his logic makes sense, but at the same time how does it foster a community that isn't extremely insular

As much as we get really bad questions I think its very much worth the effort sort through them, delete some while fixing others because it can serve as a way to really educate people about the hobby

@besw also, how are you, Im on rather at a weird time for me but is it it still day in Guam? I usually catch you right before bed when its 8am-10am in my time zone (EST)

BESW

It's quarter to 3 Saturday afternoon.

Joshua Aslan Smith

Mindblown you are in the future

jk

BESW

Good news, everybody! The world hasn't ended yet!

You are safe to plan until 1445 Saturday.

Joshua Aslan Smith

4:44 AM

Please message me on RPG.SE if Ragnorok, the Rapture, etc. start to occur so I have a few hours warning

BESW

Updates available on request.

Joshua Aslan Smith

RSS FEED BESW's is the world still here

SevenSidedDie

@BESW I admit that I was lured in contrary to my habits by the Hat Siren. And now I find I'm trapped in the Chat Triangle. And entangled by stretched metaphors.

4

Joshua Aslan Smith

@sevenSidedDie Golf Clap

BESW

@SevenSidedDie This sounds like a good time for Escher jokes.

M. C. Escher walked into a pub, and the barman gave him a funny stair.

M. C. Escher walked into a bar, and walked into a bar, and walked into a bar, and walked into a bar...

Joshua Aslan Smith

4:47 AM

Captain, She cannot take a pun of that magnitude!

Alex P

Come for the Hat Siren, stay for the You Can't Escape.

Joshua Aslan Smith

Just when I thought I got out... THE PULLED ME BACK IN... WITH HATS!!!

BESW

@JoshuaAslanSmith 1450 AND ALL'S WELL!

Joshua Aslan Smith

Praise the Maker

SevenSidedDie

@BESW If you fall silent, we'll know we're all doomed.

BESW

4:56 AM

SevenSidedDie

I GOT THE HAT

How the heck. It's past the 20th in UTC.

BESW

Which hat?

SevenSidedDie

@BESW The Silence were terrifying. Until they overdid them, and then they were silly.

@BESW "Winter is Coming".

BESW

@SevenSidedDie Ooh, like almost every other villain!

Joshua Aslan Smith

lol

Metool

4:57 AM

@SevenSidedDie Maybe it's really inclusive.

Joshua Aslan Smith

yeah very true

BESW

Seriously, RIP Cybermen credibility.

Metool

Like, a 47h58m thing.

Joshua Aslan Smith

Im so on the fence about the realism of poison question

I honestly feel it might be way too broad

BESW

Of course it is.

SevenSidedDie

4:58 AM

@Metool Maybe, yeah.

Alex P

It's a forum question

Joshua Aslan Smith

well he also is asking for history, which is off topic but then saying thats now aht he needs so its vauge too

SevenSidedDie

@BESW Cybermen were always a joke in the reboot, because they'd long since become a joke in the original. They got to be scary for a short time again, just for old time's sake...

Alex P

Because it's "educate me about history" and then there's a potential for more chatter based on further details.

Joshua Aslan Smith

alright ill vote to close, I just wanted to see if I wasnt the only oen who thought it was weird

exactly well he could go on history.se and ask there

Alex P

4:59 AM

I mean it's up to you.

SevenSidedDie

@JoshuaAslanSmith I see the weirdness, but I don't think broadness is the problem.

Alex P

The thing is, I don't know if it's a History SE question, either.

BESW

@SevenSidedDie I don't know what "one common model" you mean in your comment...

SevenSidedDie

I think it falls in with our historical-setting-research problem questions. I think it's narrow enough though.

Joshua Aslan Smith

@besw I believes he means the majority of D&D where it adds damage (ongoing) when a weapon with it hits someone

SevenSidedDie

5:00 AM

@BESW The "I smear this poison on my sword and then you make a saving throw if I hit you" model that most games borrow from original D&D.

Joshua Aslan Smith

I feel he coudl break it into 2 questions, one about the history and only that on rpg.se and another here more focused on the game mechanics side

BESW

@SevenSidedDie I thought so, but I'm not sure how that can be seen as realistic, really.

SevenSidedDie

@AlexP That's why I've hesitated to vote it in any way. I'd say it's a real-world (history?) question... but it's not meaningfully answerable by someone who doesn't understand the RPG context. So maybe it belongs here? It's a weird corner case.

Joshua Aslan Smith

true

doppelgreener

Is it just me, or are the chat room links on the front page only there when I'm not looking to join a chat room, and almost always gone when I am?

BESW

5:02 AM

It doesn't really model many actual poisons, and it's a gross simplification of those that do work anything like that.

Joshua Aslan Smith

I mean hes talking about something like taht in a system that has HP

SevenSidedDie

@BESW Well yeah. "Is it realistic?" is the question.

Like, is it a little realistic, or not at all, or is it partly? Someone with no experience of poison, and only RPGs to compare to, can't really know that.

BESW

@JonathanHobbs SE is working on quantum hyperlinks.

Joshua Aslan Smith

lol

SevenSidedDie

And they can't go ask a... poison expert? Do we have those in real life?

BESW

5:03 AM

I think they're called Heisenlinks.

Joshua Aslan Smith

haha

doppelgreener

@BESW that would be it

links that are always there until you're actually looking for them

BESW

@SevenSidedDie Maybe you can help edit the question to make it more obvious what he's asking.

SevenSidedDie

@BESW I could see a good answer growing out of that. Like, do any poisons resemble that at all? Yeah, here's one, though let me tell you about it, and now you see that it's only kinda similar, which demonstrates the unrealism...

Joshua Aslan Smith

Basically the real life equivalent of Bones would be who'd you ask, someone with an extremely broad and strong anthropological background as well as crime forensics

BESW

5:05 AM

@JoshuaAslanSmith I don't think Brennan would like D&D.

SevenSidedDie

@BESW Hm, not sure I can. I can see exactly what he's asking, and can't really see the confusion, so I share the same POV as the question and probably wouldn't fix it for the people who are coming to it differently.

Joshua Aslan Smith

She'd probably be flustered at the question itself ( I was) and refuse to see it as a valid use of her time

SevenSidedDie

And here is an excellent demonstration of why I should turn down any future opportunity for an admin diamond:

I think that the previous poster, Erik, did a great job of answering the question by the book. I took a different look at what the book says toward the spirit of game that could apply toward a story line. And now look what you have added. We all contribute how we can. Thanks. — scarpster 23 mins ago

Joshua Aslan Smith

@SevenSidedDie its a pot callling the kettle black. he seems to want reassurance for realism in a system (my guess) that is similar to D&D, even at its height of simulationism (3.5) which still has ridiculous gamey things like Hitpoints

SevenSidedDie

I don't have a light enough touch.

BESW

5:07 AM

@SevenSidedDie If I have the time and brain later today I'll see if I can do something, if nobody's worked on it by then.

@SevenSidedDie Just stop engaging with him.

doppelgreener

@SevenSidedDie I don't expect mods to have a light touch but I'd turn one down for other reasons (I don't want to mod augh!)

SevenSidedDie

@JoshuaAslanSmith I don't think he's asking for reassurance. I think he's going "hey waitaminute... I've never thought about it before, but maybe poisoning weapons doesn't actually work that way? I wonder... I should ask someone."

Joshua Aslan Smith

I don't think the light touch is an RPG.SE req given all that Ive seen

doppelgreener

Ouch

That guy just responded :(

insultingly

Definitely lay off for now

BESW

@SevenSidedDie Also, have you seen my boilerplate "welcome to SE" text block?

Joshua Aslan Smith

5:08 AM

@JonathanHobbs Ill go take a gander

SevenSidedDie

@BESW Really? I will go look for the morbid curiosity (I expected it based on that "look what you did now") but I'll refrain from responding. It wouldn't be wise or helpful.

BESW

>

Welcome to rpg.se! Please take a look at the [tour](http://rpg.stackexchange.com/about) and the [help](http://rpg.stackexchange.com/help); they're a useful introduction to the site. And once you have 20+ rep, feel free to [join the chat](http://chat.stackexchange.com/rooms/11/rpg-general-chat)!

doppelgreener

basically the guy doesn't get that answers are meant to be independent. An answer that just adds something else that isn't an answer because the question was already answered still isn't an answer.

I'm not sure how I'd put that though, and he's apparently dismissing one person. Maybe a second would help, but it'd have to be a light touch I guess.

BESW

@JonathanHobbs Want me to try?

doppelgreener

@BESW Please yes

SevenSidedDie

5:10 AM

@BESW I really need some kind of cloud-based clipping service. I don't do boilerplate because I'm always on different devices. But boilerplate is perfect for eliminating the emotional edge that can creep in.

doppelgreener

Also someone reply to a message of mine and ping me, I need to take a screenshot of something

BESW

I always try to add a personal sentence or two to it.

Alex P

@SevenSidedDie Pastebin?

SevenSidedDie

@JonathanHobbs I would just link to the About again, with no further comment, but from me it wouldn't be effective.

BESW

@JonathanHobbs Ding!

SevenSidedDie

5:10 AM

@JonathanHobbs Ping?

Joshua Aslan Smith

RING!>!

doppelgreener

Nuts, it didn't do it. @_@ I want to take a screenshot of that phenomenon where a message's right-hand-side set of options is sometimes not quite at the right hand side... until you get enough time to position the cursor over them

SevenSidedDie

@AlexP Hm, I haven't looked at their ecosystem. There might be something that makes it quick enough I'd actually use it everywhere.

@BESW I think, for me, a stock reply would help me establish tone (remind me of useful tone). I get testy. I don't hide it well.

BESW

Here's what I've got so far:

Welcome to rpg.se! Please take a look at the tour and the help; they're a useful introduction to the site. In particular, each answer to a question needs to be self-sufficient. Stack Exchange isn't a forum and answer posts can be sorted in many ways, so a successive dialogue isn't supported by this format. And once you have 20+ rep, feel free to join the chat!

Joshua Aslan Smith

@sevensideddie I just wanna say you had a great answer on the low INT vs. intelligent player question

doppelgreener

5:13 AM

@BESW I would probably add that he could improve his answer through X

BESW

@JonathanHobbs What is X?

doppelgreener

e.g. actually editing his answer to be an independent response

like, instead of telling him "this isn't good", tell him "here's how to make it better"

SevenSidedDie

@JoshuaAslanSmith Thanks. That was almost a throw-away, but it's gone over super-well. Just shows we can't always know ourselves what's actually useful...

Joshua Aslan Smith

Xhaha

I think the initial sentence is what resonated so much with people

doppelgreener

(on a related note I this still leaves me having no idea what to do about answers which 'build on' other answers)

just... downvote i guess

or just vote normally

BESW

5:15 AM

Must... trim... 12... characters...

Joshua Aslan Smith

You emphasized a deeper truth about RPGs as well as highlighting the choices between mechanics and narrative and how to balance them fairly

BESW

> Welcome to rpg.se! Please take a look at the tour and the help; they're a useful introduction to the site. Stack Exchange isn't a forum and answer posts can be sorted in many ways, so a progressive dialogue isn't supported by this format: each answer to a question needs to be self-sufficient. You've got a cool idea; just edit your post to be a full answer independent of Erik Burigo's, then it'll be great!

> And once you have 20+ rep, feel free to join the chat!

SevenSidedDie

@JonathanHobbs I downvote in the "this is not useful" sense. Don't want to reward stuff that doesn't actually make sense if you look at just it and the question (as may eventually happen, if a Q gets lots of answers).

BESW

@JonathanHobbs Better?

SevenSidedDie

But then I feel like I need to help them understand why, so they can correct. And yeah... Some days, I am not on that ball.

@BESW It looks good to me. Clear call to action.

doppelgreener

5:19 AM

@BESW I like it.

BESW

Done.

afk landlady's here

SevenSidedDie

5:38 AM

Wow, I just finished reading through that whole chat with @Corion about the group attached to that question. Poor guy.

@BESW I wish I could fairy-godmother GMs like that and hand them a group they'll have fun with.

Joshua Aslan Smith

what power level is he talking about

2.5 hours for 4 rounds of combat?

BESW

@JoshuaAslanSmith They're level 8ish, and 4e is slow....

Joshua Aslan Smith

dude

no way

2.5 hours for heroic tier combat

BESW

But being argumentative and nit-picky is the main problem.

Joshua Aslan Smith

for 4 hours

*rounds

theres just no way

I believe it, but the issue is either him using MM1 math or them taking to long on their turns

BESW

5:45 AM

Sounds like every action needs to be lawyered, debated, looked up, re-hashed, and contested.

Joshua Aslan Smith

solution half monster hp, double damage and then use a boggle timer for player turns

if your turn takes longer than a minute youre not doing your turn right, they should know the rules system if they are up to lvl 8, there should be minimal lookups

BESW

@JoshuaAslanSmith This isn't a "don't know the rules well enough" problem.

It's a "feel like they should be directly involved in the GM's business" problem.

Joshua Aslan Smith

while as you say heroic characters, minimal sacrifice I also feel 4e combat should be quick and messy but thats just me

ahhhh

gotcha

BESW

They've got a really specific vision of how the combat should play out.

Joshua Aslan Smith

I do agree about the GM-fairy, sometimes the problem player or gm questions just grab me in the gut

BESW

5:48 AM

When they even suspect that's not going to happen, they intervene to make it so.

@JoshuaAslanSmith I know, right? I was glad he came into chat.

Just a good "I feel you, man," dialogue can help a lot.

Joshua Aslan Smith

indeed

I really should host some stuf,f I need to work on my gming skills

BESW

@SevenSidedDie After him, can I be next in line?

I have a lovely group of one.

And that one player prefers to not be the center of attention all the time.

Joshua Aslan Smith

@besw I wish our time zones synced better I would totally be a player in any system you gm-ed

BESW

Not sure how well that'd work, but I'd be tempted to try it.

Also, that's very flattering.

Joshua Aslan Smith

have to use some kinda online tool like roll20 and plan it out in advance somekind of friday night (my time) or something

BESW

5:52 AM

What time/day is it now for you?

Joshua Aslan Smith

right now its 1251 am est

BESW

Because for the next two weeks I might be better able to free up several hours at a time.

Joshua Aslan Smith

saturday morning just hit

yes I basically dont have work from next tuesday (24th) till the 2nd of jan

so maybe that week we could try something

BESW

So my Saturday morning is your Friday night... Durn. I've got a Ruhi from 1130 to 1330 then.

SevenSidedDie

@JoshuaAslanSmith Part of it is they're playing online. Part is arguing about everything that's not them winning at every moment, sounds like. So, problems, exacerbated by distance.

BESW

5:53 AM

I must go do errands now, but we should consider this further.

SevenSidedDie

@BESW I'll let you know when I find my magic wand.

Joshua Aslan Smith

gotcha yeah well have to talk more

BESW

@SevenSidedDie That's when my warning bells started chiming.

DANGER, WILL ROBINSON! DANGER!

anyway, I must be off.

ttfn

SevenSidedDie

@BESW I do understand the urge to win-win-win. I don't understand discovering its limit in the land of super-boredom.

Later!

Er, not discovering it. Or waiting until super-boredom to discover it. Yeah, that's what I meant.

Joshua Aslan Smith

lol theyre probably in it for the power fantasy vs. the feeling of real choices

SevenSidedDie

6:00 AM

@JoshuaAslanSmith Perhaps. But it sounds like they'd be enthusiastic if the DM suggested he get out of the way and let them run the monsters themselves. I don't really understand that.

Apropos of nothing best quote for why "realism" and "silly elf game" aren't a contradiction like is often argued:

"Worlds need boundaries and structure even if we are going to admit to forces other than the natural."

3

BESW

7:19 AM

Back, mostly.

@SevenSidedDie I think "realism" is a poor word choice in most of those debates.

Because elves aren't "real," so naturally elf games don't have realism.

I think GNS's "simulation" moniker, for all its faults, is a better word for this kind of discussion.

SevenSidedDie

@BESW That's why I like that quote. It cuts through the terminology to the point of the words people throw around.

BESW

"We are going to simulate the rules and structures of a world in which magical elves exist" is much clearer than "We're going to make our magical elf world realistic!"

Magician

10:26 AM

A bit of snark aimed at WotC's press release re: D&D Next publishing date.

doppelgreener

11:00 AM

> multi-platform gaming experience

are they making a PC game or do they just mean you can play it on all sorts of platforms such as dinner tables and coffee tables and floors

the bolded text is the bit that worries me most though:

> December 19, 2013 – Renton, WA – Wizards of the Coast today announced that the highly-anticipated new rules system for Dungeons & Dragons will release in summer 2014. After nearly two years of an open public playtest and more than 175,000 playtest participants, the rules are complete.

Magician

@JonathanHobbs they really don't mean that bit. In the design diaries, they keep talking of changing things around.

doppelgreener

@Magician I know, they sure don't mean that bit. The rules seem very much not complete. They don't seem ready for a release.

RedRiderX

1:12 PM

@JonathanHobbs The most multi-platform game ever

doppelgreener

2:04 PM

@RedRiderX considering the number of kinds of platforms which support this game probably outnumber the quantity of console models that have ever existed, i agree

RedRiderX

@JonathanHobbs You could even use it on top of a few of those consoles.

doppelgreener

@RedRiderX since this edition supports theater of the mind, you'd even just need really small character sheets

Alex P

3:19 PM

@BESW I think "simulation" implies an approach more than an outcome, though.

doppelgreener

3:40 PM

@AlexP I think so too.

You can simulate nonrealism (somehow)

and in technical terms it is an approach, e.g.: simulation vs emulation. A console simulator and a console emulator both just let you play a game, the only difference is the method they use.

(console simulators will simulate every little bit of hardware, emulators will skip the detail and just do what it takes to produce the result - the game.)

Alex P

I mean, "realism" is, in some ways, also an approach (e.g. "magical realism").

But it's more of an ethos rather than a technique.

doppelgreener

that is true ;o

[looks up this word]

Alex P

@JonathanHobbs I don't know that I'm using it right. :P

doppelgreener

4:04 PM

I think that's a decent usage

It's in the spirit of the game, whether it's trying to be realistic or something else

Alex P

I don't have the same problem with the term "realism" that a lot of folks do because, well, "realism" in other contexts doesn't imply absolute fidelity.

It's not the best term, maybe.

Metool

5:00 PM

Today, I have found FATE on Steam.