The Reading Room

12:07 AM

Nobody's gonna be able to talk someone out of their emotions or experiences. If you want to convince them, how about focusing on how to make them feel more welcome rather than telling them they're wrong to feel unwelcome.

Interesting insight

G Warner

12:45 AM

@NapoleonWilson Exactly. But it was the simplest example I could think of to describe the term and its usage.

b_jonas

1:10 AM

@Randal'Thor Let's get it here then, to find out more about the boundaries of the scope.

The only drawback can be that if we find that this one is off topic, it could hurt the chances of more on topic questions about book illustrations, but I think I'll take the chances. And I think if it's not closed, the question will work here.

Rand al'Thor

6:28 AM

@HotNetworkQuestionsonLiterature Huh, the HNQ feed does work sometimes.

@b_jonas Done.

@b_jonas I don't think so, we've already had some questions about book illustrations here which have done fine.

CowperKettle

9:48 AM

Hopkins of the day ^^

Gareth Rees

1:01 PM

@b_jonas Very interesting question!

b_jonas

1:14 PM

@Randal'Thor Do we have such questions? I found one, literature.stackexchange.com/q/2773/139 , but I don't recall any other. I'll have to search more then.

We don't seem to have a tag for illustrations.

@GarethRees Thank you. What would you have suggested about migrating it (after it was closed on Sci Fi)? Here or Mythology?

Hmm, I guess you aren't present on Mythology so that's silly to ask.

@GarethRees I described the rowing person based on commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Praeneste_-Nile_Mosaic-Section_13-_Detail_1.jpg , which is from the mosaic. commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/… doesn't seem to have that rower.

But the description is just a guess, just as with scifi.stackexchange.com/q/76125/4918

Gareth Rees

@b_jonas The place where it would probably fit best is at history.se (for example here is a question about identifying an object in a mosaic), but I think it's fine here at literature.se. There is quite a lot of text in the mosaic.

Knight

2:41 PM

> Also in 1904, he met Nora Barnacle, a young woman from Galway city who was working as a chambermaid. On 16 June 1904 they had their first outing together, walking to the Dublin suburb of Ringsend, where Nora masturbated him. This event was commemorated by providing the date for the action of Ulysses (as "Bloomsday").[21]

I don’t think it is of any use there.

Gareth Rees

3:05 PM

It might be better to quote and reference the primary source.

Tsundoku

4:07 PM

We don't censor Wikipedia here.

Bookworm

4:40 PM

0

Q: Title of poem by Wisława Szymborska

Does anyone know the title of the poem by Szymborska which contains a line worded something like “whose life has ever turned out as they thought it would anyway”? I believe that the poem was published in the New York Times Sunday Magazine some years ago.

Knight

4:56 PM

@EddieKal Hi, sorry I forgot to ping you for this message

2 hours ago, by Knight

Can someone please try to remove that explicit thing of Nora and James from this Wikipedia article?

Eddie Kal

@Knight Hi! Just woke up. Let me read that part

Knight

Good morning

Eddie Kal

That Wikipedia page cites a secondary source in the New Yorker that corroborates that part.

If it does have a primary source as @GarethRees points out, I think we will just treat it as part of the author's life.

Mithical

@GWarner Badly formatted isn't so large of an issue; anything can be edited. Lack of research isn't such a big deal on this site, especially if it's an analysis question.

Eddie Kal

Btw @GarethRees I follow your link and can only see one page of that book. Is that the same for you?

Knight

5:08 PM

@EddieKal But I think (just my view, and I think this is “just two people talking” ) it’s kinda put there for no reason. It didn’t cause any scandal, it didn’t cause any legal problems. So, I think we don’t need it there.

Eddie Kal

That page really takes the cake. TMI.

@Knight I sort of agree. It reads abrupt.

But since it's been put there and it is corroborated as least by a secondary source, I am not sure removing it is the right thing to do.

Knight

@EddieKal I find that people kinda portray Joyce as sexual, many a times they quote something from Ulysses and say “here he is talking about sex” and I find that a little absurd.

Gareth Rees

Wikipedia has a general downer on using primary sources because they sometimes require expertise to interpret, and because sometimes it's not encyclopedic to extrapolate a primary source into a general conclusion

But in this case, where it's a single incident, and there is only the one source anyway (i.e. Joyce's letter), there's nothing to be lost by using the primary source

@EddieKal If you create an account with the Internet Archive you'll be able to borrow the book and read the other pages

Knight

I have to go Eddie. Have a nice day.

Eddie Kal

@GarethRees Ahhh I see. That's why. I wondered if I was missing something, because the page I am able to see doesn't exactly back up that Wikipedia passage.

@Knight Have a nice day yourself!!

Bookworm

5:30 PM

0

Q: What's with the "I'ma tell 'em" in Normani's "Motivation"?

In Normani's song "Motivation" (video slightly NSFW), there's a stanza that goes like this: You got a bad one, baby, don't you? Got a bad one, baby, don't you And we both know there's no One better, boy, no one better, boy Too late, won't make it, I'ma tell 'em (yeah) Get you naked, but I won't ...

song-lyrics normani

Eddie Kal

5:55 PM

@Bookworm Kiss and tell

Rand al'Thor

6:42 PM

@b_jonas That's the one I was thinking of too. Not sure if we have others.

I'm wondering if we should now create a tag for illustrations.

Mithical

8:08 PM

North Læraðr

8:27 PM

@Tsundoku How should I rephrase my What is Literature Question?

I'm not sure how to say like "scholarly definition"

Okay I've edited my question

Seriously though a +2/-2 and three close votes?

Mithical

It's... kind of a broad question that may not be possible to answer.

North Læraðr

@Mithical sigh

Mithical

(FTR, I haven't voted to close it, or downvoted; just an observation.)

North Læraðr

@Mithical I wasn't asking if you voted at all, and your vote is your vote shrug

Thanks @Tsundoku for the edits

It was probably just presented poorly

Hmm, I must be doing something wrong... I've been consistently getting downvotes on my questions with no seeming explanation....

@EddieKal Nice comments btw for that psychoanalysis question

Tsundoku

8:52 PM

@NorthLæraðr I happened to be in the middle of editing the question when your edits landed. (I saw both of your pings only after I had finalised my edits.)

I thought it was also important to highlight the difference between your question and Hamlet's older question. This way, neither needs to be closed as a duplicate of the other.

I really don't understand the downvotes and close votes on that question. If a site is called "Literature SE", then surely the definition of literature should be one of the most basic things to ask about?

It's not as if the site doesn't have question that imply that we know what literature is. Examples: Why do peasants in 19th century Russian literature often have Greek names?, Has the Brexit referendum had a negative impact on sales of foreign-language literature in the UK? ...

... and and Which literature work took the longest time in its author's life (finished or not).

Questions like these assume that we know what literature is. Yet a question about the definition of literature would be off topic??

It's as if a medical SE site would not be allowed to define the difference between health and disease.

Here endeth my rant.

North Læraðr

Yeah I don't know

Rand al'Thor

9:09 PM

Haven't the discussions in here shown that we can't really define the exact borderlines of "literature" and it's kind of futile to try?

And just because a site is about a topic doesn't necessarily mean that trying to define that topic is within the scope. I'm sure SO would close "what is a program" ;-)

Not saying I think the question should be closed, but I can see the viewpoint of those thinking it's too broad or opinion-based.

North Læraðr

@Randal'Thor Yeah but these discussions form because I believe there is an inadequate understanding of what literature is

Like myself

I realize I'm arguing for a position of what I believe literature is, without realizing that my idea of literature may be far from what literature is

I could be right, I could be wrong, but I don't know until I can get some formal understanding

And here the question stands with a -3/+2

Rand al'Thor

If even a simple question like "is music literature?" can give rise to so many different opinions, how can we expect to find a single answer covering "is X literature?" for all X?

North Læraðr

@Randal'Thor Is there something so controversial about asking what an academic definition of literature is? I'm not asking for an opinion.

Rand al'Thor

Looks like somebody withdrew their close vote after the edits; it only has 2 now.

@NorthLæraðr "An" academic definition? There might be as many different academic definitions of literature as there are academics in literature ;-) From what little I know, there's no consensus on "what is literature" even among professionals and academics.

North Læraðr

True

Eddie Kal

10:50 PM

@Randal'Thor Not sure this is a good analogical inference. SO would also close "Is this a program?" with people probably commenting/flagging "Is this account a troll?"

But we have this

6

Q: Can music be considered literature?

This is based off of a recent meta debate. Although something being literature - or not being literature - does not automatically make something on or off topic, this is an interesting question that may shed some insight on the meta discussion. Can music be considered as part of 'literature'? Ha...

music definition-of-literature

North Læraðr

@EddieKal SO would close "what is a program" because SO is about programming itself

Dedicated to writing codes and things

But asking "what is literature" on SE would be more analogous to asking "What is music theory" in Music Theory & Practice SE

Eddie Kal

@NorthLæraðr Right and awesome timing. I was just typing a reply to Tsundoku about "about a subject itself"

North Læraðr

And I think it's a relevant question bc the everyone in this community seems to have a different definition of literature. If we can't even come up with a somewhat relevant answer to the question, why do we even exist as a site? We're going to consistently squabble over "Is [blank] literature" and argue over some vague and unclear and inconsistent criteria

The point of the post, of course, isn't to define the site's scope

But I feel like the community should have some... I don't know a reference point?

Eddie Kal

@Tsundoku So initially I was surprised to see "Is ABC literature?" questions. I didn't think a site about literature should have on its main site subject matter scope questions. But it makes sense to separate topicality and scope questions. Maybe a holdover habit from ELL/ELU, I'd consider subject matter scope questions also more appropriate on meta.

But since there is the definition-of-literature tag and people have asked "Is ABC literature" questions, I definitely think this question is on-topic. And I totally agree the problem is people have unconscious definitions that they go by without even realizing it

Even if someone considers a question off-topic, they can cast their closevote, or flag if closevoting is not an option, but should not downvote well-thought-out questions. When I revisit this question, I can still see my upvote on it

@NorthLæraðr That's exactly how I see it. This question was not easily answerable. The newest edit has made it more answerable, but may have changed its meaning (debatable). But at any rate the question will gather answers in the years to come and will stay as a point of reference if and when it has gathered enough well researched, well substantiated answers.

North Læraðr

11:06 PM

@EddieKal Exactly.

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