The Reading Room

12:41 AM

> [F]or wordless picture books to be successful, they demand a previous knowledge of how stories operate[...]. This process of taking meaning from an image involves ‘imposing language upon it’, says Nodelman. [...] Although text may not be a feature of wordless picture books, they nonetheless rely on textual elements or the reader’s translation of image into word for the experience to be more than purely aesthetic.
- "Books Without Words," http://www.illustratorsillustrated.com/books-without-words/

Hamlet

12:54 AM

@BESW you read wordless picture books.

BESW

I certainly do!

Hamlet

But there are other ways to engage with wordless picture books that don't involve reading

They just wouldn't be ontopic.

@BESW heh

BESW

@Hamlet What about a question asking for an explanation about a joke in a Where's Wally page?

...or asking for help understanding the treasure hunt in Masquerade?

Solving the mystery of The Eleventh Hour?

Hamlet

@BESW that is actually a really good case study

BESW

At what point would questions about House of Leaves' layout become off-topic?

Hamlet

1:09 AM

asks a question about Where's Waldo as a test case

BESW

Why is there a cowboy on the beach?

Hamlet

1:25 AM

@BESW what about a simple question about the location of Wally?

Bookworm

0

Q: Help me find Wally!

I'm trying to work my way through Where's Wally? The Fantastic Journey by Martin Handford. But I got stuck on the first page! Could you help me find Wally?

Hamlet

@Bookworm this might be the question that clears up the "scope isn't about method" confusion.

But eh, what do I know.

BESW

If it were RPG.SE I'd leave a comment to the effect that a question about how to find Wally will get more useful answers than a question about where Wally is.

It's unclear which you're asking for here.

Hamlet

@BESW edited.

BESW

(A good answer for the latter will include the former, of course: explaining how you arrived at your conclusion is a crucial part of any good answer.)

BESW

2:43 AM

If a question needs to be edited before it's in-scope, it should be closed until then.

2

That's basic site hygiene, preventing answers that waste user time with writing and curation.

Hamlet

Is closing the best option here? Perhaps while we might agree that in general, a question like this isn't useful, in this specific case we'll allow it? (A lot of sites do this for questions about, say, recommended introductory textbooks). Or perhaps while this question in its current form is unacceptable, there is a way to improve it? I do think this is an important conversation that is worth keeping in some form. — Hamlet ♦ 5 mins ago

BESW

7:49 AM

HULK LOVE REGIONAL VARIATION! WHEN IN SOUTHERN INDIANA HULK WARSH CAR! WHEN IN ARKANSAS HULK MIGHT COULD WASH CAR! #LINGUISTICS #LANGUAGE

Tweeted by LINGUISTICSHULK on September 5, 2017 at 1:02 AM

Model #library is complete!! Just want to add custom picture onto wall & get a case as I'm not dusting this!! I'm… https://twitter.com/i/web/status/904324750935285760

Tweeted by BookMonsterAlly on September 3, 2017 at 12:46 PM

b_jonas

9:13 AM

Hmm... didn't I have a data.stackexchange query somewhere? I want to know which users have the highest number of questions or the highest number of questions with positive reputation on Sci Fi. I wonder if FuzzyBoots has the most story-id questions or not.

Ah sorry, this is the Lit chat room.

Mick

11:44 AM

At last! A question on Lit.SE that I can answer. :D

doppelgreener

@Mick [answers it first]

@Mithrandir If it's Mick's book he can do what he likes with it. The question didn't specify that Wally-finding methods had to be non-destructive. — Spagirl 2 hours ago

that's pretty amusing to think about actually

"destroy the book. now you have no more pages left with an unfound waldo on them."

Hamlet

Proposed scope: we are about two topics:

1. Books

2. Literary theory and criticism.

Questions should fit into one of two categories or they are off-topic

Our scope confusion comes from the fact that we are two sites: a literary theory and criticism site, and a books site.

People are trying to give this site one scope when it really has two.

Or I don't actually know. I'm just throwing stuff at the wall and seeing if it sticks at this point.

0

A: Are questions about music on-topic (part 2)?

The Literature Stack Exchange is actually two different sites rolled into one. We are a: Site about books (e.g. the questions about book-care, basic plot points, and story-identification). Site about literary theory and criticism (e.g. our close reading questions, our questions about literary t...

Mithrandir

12:05 PM

@doppelgreener that is one way of looking at it

BESW

12:19 PM

The comics industry is in an exciting place right now, mostly thanks to the internet. I'm gonna recommend some stuff you can read for free.

Tweeted by Iron_Spike on September 4, 2017 at 1:58 AM in reply to Iron_Spike

doppelgreener

12:32 PM

@Hamlet basically how it works, i think :)

All of our policy setting on RPG.SE has been people just going "maybe this will work?" and sooner or later someone says something we try and sooner or later we find a method that works.

BESW

Well, to be fair we usually insist on starting with "this doesn't work" before we consider proposed changes.

Without a reason to propose something, we can't know what wall to throw it at or how to tell if it stuck.

The bigger the change, the more support is needed for the community to consider it worth trying.

doppelgreener

Oh, right, yeah, there's that part also. Things work until they don't, and when they don't it comes time for throwing things at walls to see what sticks. When it's already working fine we usually don't need a course change.

Mithrandir

1:24 PM

@Hamlet Can music be considered literature?

Bookworm

0

Q: Can music be considered literature?

This is based off of a recent meta debate. Although something being literature - or not being literature - does not automatically make something on or off topic, this is an interesting question that may shed some insight on the meta discussion. Can music be considered as part of 'literature'? Ha...

music definition-of-literature

Napoleon Wilson

2:41 PM

@Hamlet You can't have your cake and eat it, though. Make up your mind.

doppelgreener

@NapoleonWilson I think he's trying to do that and trying to get the community's assistance in validating what works.

So, telling one individual to make up their mind in a community that isn't run by an individual doesn't really help.

Napoleon Wilson

@doppelgreener I was replying to the answer specifically. If that's not sufficient, just assume the plural "you".

doppelgreener

I think it begins to help make sense of a lot of stuff, personally.

Napoleon Wilson

Well, sure it does, as a problem statement. Less so as an actual solution, though.

doppelgreener

Has anyone articulated yet the notion we serve both books & literary analysis and questions are on topic for being either? I've seen some frustration from people coming here expecting literary analysis and seeing ordinary book questions, and some frustration from people coming here wanting book questions and seeing expectations they're not OK.

Mithrandir

2:55 PM

@doppelgreener actually, Hamlet made that exact point in our mod room

doppelgreener

@Mithrandir The frustrations between the two sets of expectations?

2

Mithrandir

> we serve both books & literary analysis and questions are on topic for being either

copy/paste fail

doppelgreener

(oh, also, i made that unclear -- articulated prior to Hamlet's meta post linked just up there)

Bookworm

3:48 PM

0

Q: Are there two separate narrators in "On Most Surfaces" by The Gathering?

On Most Surfaces By The Gathering (from their Nighttime Birds album) has the following lyrics: The frost hits me in the eye and wakes me These are blurry winters and I cannot see I walk into the white light of the snow When the sun comes I break it with my shadow Which tells me w...

song-lyrics the-gathering

0

Q: Why is "On Most Surfaces" titled the way that it is given that only one surface appears in the song itself?

Loosely related: Are there two separate narrators in "On Most Surfaces" by The Gathering? The song On Most Surfaces by The Gathering (on their Nighttime Birds album) has the following lyrics: The frost hits me in the eye and wakes me These are blurry winters and I cannot see I walk in...

song-lyrics the-gathering

Hamlet

5:05 PM

@doppelgreener aww, thanks :)

@Mithrandir depends on what definition you use

Hamlet

5:33 PM

@doppelgreener well, people have talked about the site not meeting their expectations. Some people said they didn't expect literary analysis questions (some people also proposed naming the site "Books"). And some people made arguments that questions about books should be off-topic.

I don't know, there's no reason that we can't accommodate both and have two separate scopes. With regards to literary analysis: people clearly think that a site named "literature" is the appropriate place to ask these questions. This might not jive with other people's expectation, who see this site a place for "books" and "book like things" (e.g. poetry, questions about authors).

But there's no reason why both groups can't exist in the same site, other than people refusing to get along, and refusing to see that just because they use the site for one purpose, others might use the site for a different purpose. (This has occurred on both sides... see the literary snobbery debate).

Of course, as far as I can tell, we are the first site to be like this. Most sites don't have this level of two groups with different expectations.

But eh, we're the first Stack for a lot of things, might as well be the first Stack for this one.

I do of course think that with regards to "literary analysis" questions, it is very important to keep an open mind.

We've learned:

* authorial intent

* close reading

* scansion

But that accounts for about 1% of 1% of literary analysis.

We're all beginners. The idea that any of us can know what is and isn't literary analysis without doing research is a bit arrogant.

Which is why I feel strongly about giving questions some sort of trial period, seeing how people answer them, and what sorts of literary analysis answers people can write.

Many of the people who argue that questions about music are off-topic also argued that close reading questions were off-topic, for example. Our judgment about what is lit analysis and what isn't hasn't been very reliable. I'm just saying...

And yes, again, there is a limit to the types of questions we can ask about lit theory and criticism. We haven't reached it yet. There would be a rapid expansion of scope. But a rapid expansion of scope isn't necessarily a bad thing. It depends on the context.

Hamlet

5:58 PM

Of course, at this point in the site's history we've just about reached the end of my knowledge about the topic. I know as much as everyone else. There's a reason why I haven't tried to establish a boundary line around literary theory and criticism: I have no idea where that boundary would be located.

Which is why I advocate: research, take things slowly, move deliberately. Don't commit to scopes without knowing whether they'll work.

I don't know, maybe that's foreign to how Stack operates. But that's what we signed up for when we created a site about something none of us knew anything about.

This site is in many ways an experiment to push the limits of various Stack principles, such as Good Subjective. If you won't allow things to get broken from time to time... go back to Area51 and create a site with the name "Books"

And make a SFF but for all books, not just SFF. Which is something that is completely risk free: we know that it works.

I don't know why I'm posting any of this in chat by the way. Most of the people in who participate in the main site don't use this chat room.

Mithrandir

Because there isn't really any other place to just dump thoughts like that?

Hamlet

@Mithrandir yeah, probably.

I have to remind myself to regularly move things either I or BESW have said in chat to the main site or meta.

Cause when it's in chat it's literally useless -- no one reads it and no one remembers it.

Mithrandir

It's literally useless? Heh.

Hamlet

6:14 PM

@Mithrandir in real life I write using very formal language, which makes what I say easier to understand but also means that I miss out of those cool accidental puns like that.

Bookworm

7:49 PM

0

Q: Which English Translation of the Arthurian Legend is closest to Chrétian de Troyes versiom?

I have been wanting to read a book of the Arthurian legend, but I have no idea which book to start with. I am looking for a book which is as close as possible to the Chrétian de Troyes legends. I presume that for this, I need to go for an older book so how about something like Le Morte D'Arthur?...

translation

Mithrandir

@Bookworm I'm not sure if that should be closed as POB or what.

Feeds

9:30 PM

Looking for help finding Wally (Waldo)? Why not try these strategies? #Waldo #WheresWaldo #WheresWally https://literature.stackexchange.com/q/3496/481

Tweeted by StackLiterature on September 5, 2017 at 9:28 PM

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