The Reading Room

Rand al'Thor

00:01

@BESW NIMH? I discovered it via the third book, and can hardly even remember the first one.

And I had no idea there was a screen adaptation.

BESW

Oh, yeah, The Rats of NIMH was the first film Don Bluth directed.

It's... well, it's VERY Don Bluth. But in the good way.

Rand al'Thor

has no idea who Don Bluth is

You'll have to forgive my ignorance of all things cinematic. Fortunately, this is the one SE site where such ignorance should fit in best ;-)

BESW

Heh. Well, let me just say that I thought Mrs. Frisby and the Rats of NIMH was great, but the sequel was bad enough that I never looked for the third.

Rand al'Thor

Oh, you never even read the third?

I don't think I read the second. Or if I did, it's completely slipped my mind.

BESW

I didn't know there were ANY sequels for years until I almost literally tripped over Rasco in a library during a visit to the mainland US.

Rand al'Thor

00:08

The third is about a pair of city kids, the slightly spoiled and superficial Margaret and her younger (possibly autistic?) brother Artie, who get lost in the woods, encounter the NIMH rats, and spend a season or two living with them.

Classic "spoiled city kid discovers better way of life" character arcs.

BESW

Rasco felt like a completely different franchise by a completely different author from Frisby.

Rand al'Thor

*Racso :-)

BESW

Frisby is about the origin of the rats and their life before the valley, leading up to the events which led them to seek out the valley life. It's told from the perspective of an ordinary mouse on the farm where the rats lived prior to the valley.

Rand al'Thor

Yep, I remember that much. They were genetically engineered by human scientists and then pursued after NIMH, right?

I have the feeling that if I reread the books now, the first one would probably seem cliched and the third one even more so.

BESW

Yeah. It's dark and grim and fantastical, and deals reasonably well with weighty issues of morality and society.

Rand al'Thor

00:18

Hmm. I wonder if the NIMH books were at all influenced by Richard Adams's The Plague Dogs?

Or even the other way round. I don't know which was first.

BESW

The rats are arguing over whether the utopia of the valley is a pipe dream or a noble endeavor or a dead end, while Mrs. Frisby just wants them to help her save her kids from immediate peril and doesn't care about their impending civil war.

Bookworm

0

Q: Was Stevenson's Treasure Island influenced by Poe?

I read on Wikipedia that: During the same period, Edgar Allan Poe wrote, "MS Found in a Bottle" (1833) and the intriguing tale of buried treasure, "The Gold-Bug" (1843). All of these works influenced Stevenson's end product. [...] Stevenson also admits that he took the idea of Captain Flint's...

BESW

Hmm. Plague Dogs was published six years after Frisby, and their respective film adaptations came within a year of each other.

...and they're planning to do a live-action/CGI hybrid remake of NIMH, set entirely during the first novel's flashback. Screenwriter is the Ice Age guy, and it's being compared to Alvin and the Chipmunks.

[bangs head against desk]

I mean, come on. Give or take some Bluthian magical exposition effects, this is the summary of their movie.

Nothing about this material says "Family franchise scripted by the Ice Age guy."

Rot in development hell, reboot.

doppelgreener

00:41

@BESW in no way should the story of NIMH be remotely like alvin & the chipmunks or ice age

this is probably going to be Papa Smurf In Sunglasses level of embarrassing not-getting-it

probably the word for it is patronizing? as a kid i could take stories wherein the protagonist and other people died and the endings weren't good. i could also take grey-area novels about hard life. i could handle that in the cinema, too.

BESW

I mean... I mean... at least the Smurf movies were still supposed to be whimsical.

And in this era where all the brightly-colored and optimistic 80s and 90s nostalgia franchises are getting grim and gritty reboots, this is what they're going to give a comedy uplift?

A story about a civil war over how to deal with a whole society's existential dread?

And particularly the bit with animal experimentation where the main characters have a 30% casualty rate during their escape?

It's not just patronising--I can understand that, I can wrap my head around it.

But this is... who is this for? It's not a nostalgia franchise; the people who liked the dark, fantastical Don Bluth film will hate it. If it's trying to attract a brand-new younger audience--why in the world would you use THIS franchise to do that?

Bookworm

01:11

0

Q: What is the connection between the following two lines from "A German Requiem"?

I think there must be some connection between the last two lineslines from the first stanza of "A German Requiem". https://www.poemhunter.com/poem/a-german-requiem/ I believe there must be some contrast between yesterday and today. In another post on ELL I asked the same question and received a c...

poetry james-fenton

Hamlet

02:41

Just made a markov chain to generate imaginary verses of the King James Bible.

> so it shall be seen. 34:1 And the snuffers, and the plummet of the children of Nebo, to the pot whose scum is not right. 23:11 For their redeemer is mighty; he judgeth among the heathen, his wonders among all the people, and to the half tribe have received their

> so it cometh out of that famine following; for it is graven upon the men that drew sword, beside the continual burnt offering, while I live: I will seek him with pestilence and blood cannot inherit the earth. 11:13 The envy also of Mushi; Mahli, and Mushi. And these are

Right now all of the texts I'm generating start with the phrase "so it". Ideally, the starting phrase would be generated as well.

Shokhet

@b_jonas I don't know who did this, but it's a good start. (But not very visible)

People should start linking to that in comments under new story-ID questions

Hamlet

Tempted to ask some questions on the main site about these.

> I will make, shall remain in thine hand. And Tamar went to Eli, and said, It is enough, the hour of temptation, which shall be: for thou art a valiant man, and one is hungry, and satisfy thy soul liveth, my lord, O king, thy thoughts which are not but

Question for the main site: why did Tamar go to Eli?

This one is hilarious:

> So it came to pass through the gospel. 2:23 Him therefore I will go before thee: 17:14 But I would do this thing I may dwell in safety. 25:19 And the child to destroy all copies of Project Gutenberg-tm License (available with this lamentation over Saul and after the shekel of the year.

Shokhet

@Hamlet Heh

@Hamlet Ping me when you ask. I might be able to give you an answer.

That question, btw, would probably be very well received on Mi Yodeya

Probably on topic on Biblical Hermeneutics and/or Christianity, but I'm not really familiar with those sites

Hamlet

@Shokhet ooh, I'll wait for Purim next year.

next year for April fools I'm totally going to ask some questions about markov-generated versions of classics.

And we can go all out tinfoil on them.

BESW

03:08

Oh, hey. You know which other author of a little-read book adapted into a famous film we don't have any questions about yet?

Lafayette Ronald Hubbard.

Shokhet

Oh hi @BESW! I now have a copy of Cold Comfort Farm in my possession. I'm planning on reading it sometime over the coming week.

Hamlet

> His lightnings enlightened the world

@BESW what's a freely available book that I should run my markov generator on?

Shokhet

9

A: What are some good (legal) resources for finding the text of books?

Sites which cover many books Project Gutenberg. An excellent resource containing thousands of texts in electronic versions with easily copy-pastable text. They also care about legality: Our ebooks may be freely used in the United States because most are not protected by U.S. copyright law, ...

:)

Hamlet

@Shokhet yeah, which book? I need recommmmeeeennndddaatttttiodkdsfkns

Shokhet

@Hamlet ...ask Wikisource for a random book?

I got en.wikisource.org/wiki/Mortimer,_Ralph_de_(DNB00) as a random work.

en.wikisource.org/wiki/Special:RandomRootpage/Main

...never mind. Most of the works I'm getting from that are very short.

Can you run it on the whole Wikipedia?

Hamlet

03:21

@Shokhet I need to download the text file

which is why I used a king james bible; a text version of it was on project gutenberg

Shokhet

@Hamlet Ah. So never mind, then

Hamlet

I thought BESW might be able to recommend something that would give funny results

Shokhet

I see.

Hamlet

Ah well, that was fun, now on to the next project.

Shokhet

Okay. Enjoy :)

@Gallifreyan I've since finished Doll's House (and Dream Country). I don't think there was an answer to my nightmare question in Doll's House.

I'm probably going to ask the prologue question (about African oral literature) first, because that will likely be the least laborious to write.

BESW

03:46

@Hamlet Varney the Vampire.

@Shokhet Yey!

@Hamlet "Varney the Vampire; Or, the Feast of Blood," by Thomas Preskett Prest.

Hamlet

> Jazer with her suburbs, 6:79 Kedemoth also with the staves of shittim wood for things of the evil that shall rise up against me in a barrel, and a brightness was excellent, stood before him: God is revealed from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the figures of the flesh, they constrain you to nought; and ye build me? saith the Lord GOD;

> I will cause thine ear now be strong, and the silver, and jewels of gold. 36:4 And Adah bare to Esau Eliphaz; and Bashemath the daughter of Shuah Judah's wife died; and they shall bow before

@BESW thanks

BESW

Varney is epic, and I urge everyone to try reading a chapter or two. I don't really recommend greater immersion than that, though.

It's sort of the Manos: Hands of Fate of serialised vampire fiction.

Shokhet

04:08

@Hamlet Have you tried Flack Overstow?

Hamlet

@Shokhet cool

This is actually me to a letter

> The story off of the symbol. This answer is essentially a re-post of humanity's degeneration. If you want to discuss. I think you've misunderstood the sake of learning a foreign language. But you don't need to learn a foreign language for the sake of learning a foreign language. But it's important to realize that while asking about an author's intentions can critique about Hardy's portrayal of this question.

> The entire story reminds me up (thank you BESW) "What are your songs about Bob?" "Oh, some really interesting blogs (1,2) out there. If by "pure analysis" you mean analysis that's based only on reading her own work and making arguments about the politics, military tactics of Campbell or the PBS television series of lectures by him than by "pure analysis" you mean analysis that's based only on reading the book, and avoiding all outside sources, the symbol of the four corners has.

myth is more confusing:

Legion, which, as stated previously, is a coessential relationship with their tools, and when the bishop (and the priest and the scholar) visit, "It had a secret name that they used to explain why later generations were named. Each of them revealed the going of the nine bands. Not off could betake him; death he will go Rick Riordan and invent something similar to the mist

(which I recommend that you use: it's hard to know for sure as "drowning" as people move away from the online version of Allen J. Christenson's translation) Xibalba (the underworld) doesn't want her to go back. The Fairy Bride Legend in Wales. I've also heard a more subtle interpretation to the text:

Xibalba, the "Lords of the subterrene regions" (Esotericism) are all examples of this type of Gwestad (on the day that he will, it rebounds backward. (Apollodorus, Library) The image of Sisyphus pushing the!

BESW

@Hamlet You're welcome.

Bookworm

04:24

1

Q: What is Hubbard's definition of "pure science fiction"?

In his 1980 introduction to Battlefield Earth, L. Ron Hubbard claims that the novel is a work of "pure science fiction" and then sets out to define that term. However... Hubbard spends more time defining fantasy than he does science fiction, as if somehow the shade cast by the one will illuminat...

terminology l-ron-hubbard

Hamlet

> This answer is essentially a re-post of humanity's degeneration.

BESW

@Bookworm Enjoy! I've got a follow-up question if this one gets answered.

Gallifreyan

05:58

@Randal'Thor Congratulations!

BESW

06:27

2

Mithrandir

07:25

@BESW (cc @Randal'Thor) I was literally rereading that yesterday! :O

BESW

09:55

[sigh] More "quote me something so I can pretend to answer a question I don't have the context for."

BESW

10:16

Every time a public library is shut down, a unicorn dies, a dragon loses its fiery breath and a child's future is d… https://twitter.com/i/web/status/852090640733220864

Tweeted by PhilipArdagh on April 12, 2017 at 9:26 AM

Rand al'Thor

11:36

@Gallifreyan Спасибо :-D

I do like the fact that most of our top users this week are newbies. It shows we're not stagnating in terms of our userbase.

Also, I think those two Treasure Island questions of mine should both be reasonably easy to answer, if anyone wants some low-hanging fruit. Don't assume that just because I asked a question, it's necessarily beyond my skill to research ;-)

Mithrandir

@Randal'Thor Woo, the user I gave the Tollbooth question link to and she answered has apparently decided that she'll visit the site :)

Rand al'Thor

@Mithrandir Well, all of her rep so far comes from that one answer. But yes, let's hope she sticks around!

Mithrandir

Yes, but I was talking about the 'last seen 8 hours ago', visited x days, etc...

Rand al'Thor

@Mithrandir Non-mods can't see the "visited x days" thing.

Mithrandir

@Randal'Thor Yes, I know. But she was 'last seen' 8 hours ago, and didn't just disappear after posting the answer. (And that's why I wrote 'x' :P)

Rand al'Thor

11:50

Is she an author, or just someone who blogs about books?

(I didn't look at her blog in too much detail.)

Mithrandir

*shrugs*

Rand al'Thor

in Mos Eisley, Sep 20 '16 at 19:38, by Mark Rogers

Harry Potter Stories - Random sentences generated with markov chains using all Harry Potter books as input.

Mithrandir

> Juni: dreamer, pagan, weaver, witch, writer. ♥

BESW

12:31

[amuses himself by poking holes in L Ron Hubbard's pretentious jabbering]

Rand al'Thor

> Is “Battlefield Earth” good science fiction?

That title sounds really opinion-based ...

BESW

And yet, it's not!

Nifty how that works.

Mithrandir

> After nine rambling pages of name-dropping and shade-throwing I'm left without any clear sense of what he thinks "pure science fiction" is, aside from Battlefield Earth.

Rand al'Thor

@BESW But that title will prejudice people against your question before they even start reading it.

Oh, you edited it.

BESW

@Randal'Thor That's why it's not the title anymore.

Mithrandir

12:34

@LongJohnSilver is dead.

Also, we have 6 questions with bounties? o_o

BESW

@Mithrandir Right. Basically, I think he's blowing smoke and Battlefield Earth isn't pure science fiction by the definitions he wrote in the introduction TO Battlefield Earth for the sole purpose of claiming that it IS pure science fiction.

Rand al'Thor

@Mithrandir Spoilers!

Mithrandir

in The Sphinx's Lair, Jan 7 at 19:04, by Mithrandir

'ts okay, I read spoilers all the time.

Also, I put up a new challenge suggestion.

Beastly Gerbil

@Randal'Thor grats on 10k!

Rand al'Thor

Danke :-D

BESW

12:41

Now I wait for an answer to my Manhattan Projects question so I can do the follow-up on that one.

Bookworm

Recent Questions - Literature Stack Exchange: Is "Battlefield Earth" good science fiction by Hubbard's standards?

posted on April 13, 2017 by BESW

L. Ron Hubbard says that to be "pure," "credible," and "have a point," (all things he clearly values highly) science fiction must be plausible; limited in its possibilities; have to do with material-based sciences; be focused on people over machines; and not incorporate spiritualism, the supernatural, mythology, or similar non-materialistic phenomena or notions. Doe…

Mithrandir

WTH?

Beastly Gerbil

Why does that ^ look different?

BESW

It's such an awesome question that it broke the system. Obviously.

Beastly Gerbil

@Mithrandir did you do something to the feeds?

Mithrandir

12:45

@BeastlyGerbil I only added one that apparently doesn't work.

Beastly Gerbil

hmm...

Rand al'Thor

That just ... happens occasionally.

A question will look like that if it's deleted before the feed catches it.

And sometimes it just happens for no apparent reason.

Beastly Gerbil

Yeah its not been deleted

I was trying to look at this to see if there was a bug, but then I realised the only bug was that I can't read code

BESW

Maybe because I edited the title between posting and the feed catching it?

Rand al'Thor

Oh, huh, the actual text of the feed message looks different as well.

https://literature.stackexchange.com/questions/2335/is-battlefield-earth-good-science-fiction-by-hubbards-standards
Recent Questions - Literature Stack Exchange
Is "Battlefield Earth" good science fiction by Hubbard's standards?
BESW
1492086525
L. Ron Hubbard says that to be "pure," "credible," and "have a point," (all things he clearly values highly) science fiction must be plausible; limited in its possibilities; have to do with material-based sciences; be focused on people over machines; and not incorporate spiritualism, the supernatural, mythology, or similar non-materialistic phenomena…

that ^ rather than just a link

Rand al'Thor

13:29

@Mithrandir An American fantasy novel? :-/

Mithrandir

@Randal'Thor of course. How many people here have read that? *looks around*

Rand al'Thor

@Mithrandir Sure, but there are so many American fantasy novels that there must be hundreds which nobody here happens to have read. Doesn't mean they'd expand the cultural scope of the site.

The only thing stopping me from downvoting at this point is the "mythology of ancient India" bit.

Mithrandir

@Randal'Thor It's also all about India...

Rand al'Thor

Got anything about India written by Indian authors?

BESW

Would The Souls of Black Folk fit the challenge's ideals?

DVK-on-Ahch-To

13:50

Flagged that question to migrate to SFF Meta

Flagged that question to close as duplicate of this

Flagged that question as opinion based

Rand al'Thor

What question - the topic challenge one?

DVK-on-Ahch-To

@Randal'Thor - no, the Hubbard one

Now, I'd like some questions about Battlefield Earth as work of literature.

(so sue me, i actually managed to like that book)

Rand al'Thor

@DVK-on-Ahch-To In that case, can you put together a good "yes" answer to BESW's question? :-)

DForck42

mornin

Mithrandir

@DForck42 afternoon

Beastly Gerbil

14:01

Gamen

Rand al'Thor

Afternoon

DForck42

how's everyone?

Mithrandir

considering destroying stuff

DForck42

@Mithrandir oh? what sort of stuff?

Mithrandir

@DForck42 sekrit

Well, it's obviously Mithrandir's fault — Cai 2 mins ago

Beastly Gerbil

14:06

Of course

DForck42

@Mithrandir does that mean secret?

Mithrandir

@DForck42 Indubitably.

DForck42

@Mithrandir k

just don't break my stuff, or SE

Beastly Gerbil

Well he already broke the feeds :P

DForck42

@BeastlyGerbil ... MITH!!!

Beastly Gerbil

14:09

scroll up to the last feed, take a look :P

Rand al'Thor

> Now I am become Mith, the destroyer of worlds.

Mithrandir

I set off my nukes, and nobody noticed, so I don't think I killed SE...

DForck42

lol

quartata

Every feed on the network looks like that for some reason. So it's not you.

Mithrandir

14:25

Beastly Gerbil

@quartata hhm, maybe there was an update. I haven't seen any new posts so I thought it might be a one off

DForck42

16:02

................................................................................‌...................................................

jim butcher's gonna be at my local barnes and noble... but I'm gonna be out of town heading to a con.......................................

Catija

@DForck42 Ouch

DForck42

@Catija ...I am displeased, to say the least...

BUT, I wanna go to the con, so it's my choice

Catija

@DForck42 That was like when I heard that Garth Nix was going to be appearing at the local book store... the day after I left for England. :/

Which con?

DForck42

@Catija planet comicon in KC

Beastly Gerbil

16:28

@Catija Garth Nix is a great author, shame you missed that

Catija

@BeastlyGerbil I know!

I have a bunch of his books that I was planning to get signed... I gave them to a friend to get them signed and not only did she never get them signed, she never gave them back!

So, I guess, technically, I had a bunch of his books :/

Beastly Gerbil

hmmm, still friends? :P

Catija

HA HA. On Facebook.

DForck42

@Catija ...

Catija

Well, it's true.

DForck42

16:39

good way to end a friendship with me...

Hamlet

17:07

@BESW in my mind, yes

Rand al'Thor

21:15

What do you mean, there are no sexual references in the poem. The !^%@& poem is about marriage; how can there be no sexual references in the poem? — Hamlet ♦ 5 hours ago

...

@Hamlet Sorry, I'm going to call you out on this. You sound as though you think marriage is all about sex.

Hamlet

@Randal'Thor ok, I worded that comment poorly and I just deleted it

@Randal'Thor but the claim that there are no elements that can't be interpenetrated as "sexual" is laughably incorrect.

> Here comes the driver, flicking a toothpick into the gutter,
His tongue still searching between his teeth.
See, he has not noticed you. No one has noticed you.
It will pass, young lady, it will pass.

It's just such a bad answer.

One of the (valid) ways to interpret this poem is that is talking about how the widows are not having sex, and the gender politics that accompany this.

Rand al'Thor

21:57

@Hamlet "interpenetrated"? I like your Freudian slip.

Also, you may be right that some lines of the poem can be interpreted as sexual references, but I also think they can be interpreted as not sexual references. Joshua is using a non-sexual interpretation, not saying that a sexual interpretation is impossible.

Hamlet

@Randal'Thor they spends a good chunk of their answer arguing that there is no "sexual" interpretation, to the point where there conclusion is partly based on that argument

@Randal'Thor yikes, no idea how that happened

> I don't believe it's intended sexually, due to the lack of other sexual references in the poem,

> I do think that "leering" is an odd choice here: the connotations are inherently sexual. The language hasn't changed that much since the poem was written, and I don't think its connotation is that different in the UK. (Even if it were, the poet is a professor of English, and should be careful about such implications regardless of his own dialect.)

The question is about the word leering, and the answer ultimately concludes by saying :

> I can only imagine that it's intended to increase the sense of possessiveness and intrusion: this puffed-up poo-bah is using their grief as a prop. Perhaps I'm oversensitive to shy away from the sexual connotations, a bit like using "rape" for something merely unpleasant.

So the actual answer to the question is based on the claim that the poem contains no "sexual elements"

(again, it would be really helpful if the OP could define "sexual" in their answer.

Rand al'Thor

@Hamlet I couldn't quite parse what he meant in that last sentence.

Also, I don't agree that the word "leering" necessarily has sexual connotations. I left another comment.

Anyway, GTG.

Hamlet

@Randal'Thor there are certainly valid interpretations of the poem that aren't "sexual". But those interpretations shouldn't rely on the claim that "sexual" interpretations are invalid.

BESW

23:58

Hay-on-Wye

Hay-on-Wye (Welsh: Y Gelli Gandryll or just Y Gelli), often abbreviated to just "Hay", is a small market town and community in the traditional county and district of Brecknockshire in Wales, currently administered as part of the unitary authority of Powys. Often described as "the town of books", it is the National Book Town of Wales. The annual Hay Festival is a major literary festival. The settlement's name is first referred to between 1135 and 1147 as "Haya"; in 1299 the name of "La Haye" is used. By the 16th century it was simply called "Hay", and the use of the river as a suffix is a later...

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