Discussion on answer by Joe: If my 5yr old is an exceptional liar, should I expect that she will continue lying as she gets older?

This technique looks nice on paper, but seems quite limited. The life is full of scenarios where the actions only hurt other people and there are no consequences/feedback apart from possibly [state imposed] physical punishment. What wold you do if she broke all the toys of her younger/older sibling? What if she burned her study books? Ruined your documents and passports? Would it be enough of a "punishment" to just tell her that because of her actions she won't be able to go on vacation in 8 months?

I'm legitimately curious, where in this parenting style does actual discipline come into play? I see where consequences come in, but not responsibility for one's own actions.

@Ark-kun I agree! In this scenario with your passport and documents, if I have multiple children, I can't just punish them all by denying going on a vacation that year, and even something like making them stay home would mean one of the parents has to stay with them. Furthermore, what if that child didn't want to go on vacation, and figured destroying your passport would render a vacation impossible, this method of discipline would leave them getting just what they wanted.

that's horrifying, treating the children like animals instead of people

@naiad Can you explain your concern? I don’t know much about animals, but I don’t at all understand the connection you’re making here. I would say that to the extent I know how people train animals, this answer intends the opposite: teach why to do or not do things, rather than just setting up rules and penalties for breaking them (which is similar to how I imagine animal training goes). As stated in the answer, this method doesn’t work for everyone - but for some, it works very well.

My point was that asking is not always a trap, sometimes it's an opportunity to shine. I like your approach in general, but not the part of your answer that says asking is a lie. You can't give them the chance to do the right thing, without giving them the chance to do the wrong thing.

While I generally agree with your answer, your game-theoretic part does not seem to hold water. Usually, there are different negative rewards for different kinds of bad behavior and lying is one of those behaviors (withholding information might be another). Punishment for lying might be much higher than the punishment for doing something wrong. High enough to dissuade her from trying, as the mean long-term gains would be negative.

The fundamental problem is that child's values and parent's values are different. In the areas, that the child values less than the parents do, the child to manipulate his parents by taking himself "hostage".

@MrDuk This answer is saying that the discipline is part of the problem. "All that said, the other elephant in the room is why she's lying: because she's worried about being punished. A system of discipline that does not focus on punishment, but instead focuses on development and understanding whys, encourages a child to accurately describe even things they did wrong: because they know you're not going to punish them, but instead you're going to help them learn more about why they should make a different choice in the future."

It sounds nice in theory, but the question remains, where does it leave room for any discipline at all? I'd love a follow-up if his children are older than 5, explaining whether or not they take responsibility for doing something wrong. To me, that's equally as important as not doing the wrong thing to begin with.

Sorry realized I didn't say 5 kids total, 3 young, 2 grown & the 2 older ones came to be as older adoptees with lots of issues. I have yet to meet a child that I believe cannot be effectively disciplined without the use of punishment or rewards. It takes a lot of conscious effort to not fall back into the patterns you know from your own life and peers, but it's more than worth it in results. My children are totally open with me and I know what is going on almost all the time, even as teens, even with the "big" things. They come to me for advice, they trust I can be that for them.