Discussion on answer by Laurel: Did JK Rowling ever describe Harry Potter goblins as "hook-nosed"?

The quality of the discourse on this question has been a major disappointment. I blame the question which focused on a claim that no-one was seriously making, and has now turned into bad literary criticism and even worse understanding of the topic of racism. These comments do not belong on Skeptics.SE. Please do not use this site for this discussion.

@user76284 it is a direct reference to the quoted passage relating to the goblins physical description ("He had a swarthy, clever face") and how it relates to antisemitic imagery.

@GGMG-he-him I'm not sure anyone is making the claim that Rowling explicitly pushed for hook-noses. People are saying that the goblins in the book and even moreso the movie are based on antisemitic stereotypes (not exactly the same ones for book and movie, but similar ones) & that Rowling was significantly involved in the production of both. I fear that focusing on a very narrow claim (that I'm not sure is being made in that specific form) will lead to the misleading impression that these aren't antisemitic stereotypes (when they clearly are, in the book as well as the movie).

@tim Sorry, I'm very unclear how you can say nobody is making the claim. That's why I chose the Forbes article: "...author J.K. Rowling depicted them in her Harry Potter series as a secretive cabal of hook-nosed bankers". That's explicitly an accusation against Rowling. As opposed to a more impartial phrasing like "the goblins in Harry Potter are depicted as..." And the Forbes article constantly frames it as anger against Rowling, not Harry Potter or Chris Columbus, the film's director.

@vsz but if you encounter an entire fictional race who are shady and greedy, and also have hooked noses, and also have control of the world's financial system, etc - you don't have to be an antisemite to recognise antisemitic stereotypes. One can debate whether or not the stereotype is deliberately or consciously invoked by the author, but the "ah ha, it must be YOU who is racist, or you wouldn't have noticed this racism!" argument is tired and meritless.

@Carcer : no, I didn't say that "you must be racist for noticing racism" at all, you twisted my words. I said that if you encounter a fictional race with negative characteristics and you react like "ah ha, they are just like real life race x" then it might be you who is racist for associating that characteristic to a real life group. For example, the thought of Jews being just like goblins in HP never even occurred to me. I know, there is a recent trend which dictates that in order to not be racist you must find racism in everything, but that's just a theory and not everyone agrees with it.

@vsz but nobody here is going "ah, they're just like real life Jews". They're going "ah, these look like racist stereotypes about Jews". Knowing that a racist stereotype exists, and noticing things that look like it in fiction, is not equivalent to being racist, and nobody sensible argues you're a bad person if you don't notice it. It's only a problem if you keep trying to argue those things aren't there when people who can see them point them out.

@Carcer : whether it is derived from a racist stereotype or not, is a personal opinion, which not everyone shares.

"One can debate whether or not the stereotype is deliberately or consciously invoked by the author, but the "ah ha, it must be YOU who is racist, or you wouldn't have noticed this racism!" argument is tired and meritless." No, not at all. I genuinely can't come up with an explanation better than psychological projection for this lunacy. When I'm shown the images in this post I don't think of Jews and it would be absurd in my view for any non-bigoted person to make that association. Simply saying that you're tired of hearing something doesn't mean there isn't a valid point there.

"They're going "ah, these look like racist stereotypes about Jews"." ... but they don't. Actual non-racist people (such as myself) have either never heard of these stereotypes, or promptly forget about them as soon as inane discussions like this one are over. The people who complain about this sort of thing are doing the exact same sort of "noticing" of coincidences as their far-right opponents. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

@KarlKnechtel just because you personally aren't used to seeing racist caricatures and stereotypes - and thus fail to make the connection - does not mean that anyone who has and makes such connection is "projecting". The similarities between HP's goblins and antisemitic stereotypes is fairly evident to anyone who has ever been involuntarily subjected to old antisemitic propaganda or modern day antisemitic memes. I mean, even just the plot point "every bank is operated by this specific race of gold-loving creatures" alone raises an eyebrow for anyone who's ever heard/read a neon*zi's BS.

"still does not mean that anyone who does is a bigot" What makes them bigots is the decision to lob such an accusation on the basis of having "noticed" (i.e., interpreted) subtext, because it denies other explanations. We know that the camel with sunglasses is intended to be a relatable character because of the context: advertising. Rowling is writing fantasy novels, not political propaganda, so that sort of context is absent.

@Hankrecords The key point of the "JKR is antisemitic" argument is that "JKR must have known about these stereotypes and so following them must be a deliberate act of antisemitism". But if the stereotypes are not that well-known (or known only to people who look at antisemitic memes) then maybe it's possible, if you don't make a point of looking at antisemitic propaganda, to accidentally choose a look that happens to be similar. Or choose it for other reasons.