Conversation started Oct 17, 2013 at 1:43.
Oct 17, 2013 01:43
@EricPeterson Perhaps I should point out Eric's recent interesting remarks regarding Jack's note on cobordism.
Can you reference either for those of us who weren't present?
Hmmm, shit I thought I was somehow linking to it. Ummmmm. Okay what about this.
Okay, yeah, click on the grey arrow next to my comment.
On the left side.
What kind of awesome math are we looking for?
Or starred now anyway
Is Jack's paper.
I dunno, something chromatic I guess.
Oct 17, 2013 01:48
Hrm. I remember the quotes at the beginning, but not the contents of this paper.
Eric was referring to Jack's comments at the bottom of page 9.
Not the cats in the dark quote?
However, I think it's related to arxiv.org/pdf/0707.3216v1.pdf as well.
Hrm. That's a good question.
...Isn't that the same paper?
uh
what have i done.
There we go.
Oct 17, 2013 01:50
Ah. I kind of like the idea that Jack's paper is somehow self-referential.
Hahaha!
Yeah, it cites itself.
I dunno though, like.... I think we need to make some sense of this Tannakian formalism/ etale homotopy type of the category of spectra POV
Where HF_p is a fiber functor, so its automorphisms (the Steenrod algebra!) give us a sort of homotopy type of the category of spectra, or something.
...I guess Jack's comment on page 9 somehow brings to mind Galois groups of local fields.
Yeah, well, I think that's a good thing to have brought to mind.
In what way?
If you've got a complete DVR with fraction field K and residue field k, then the absolute Galois group of k is a quotient of the absolute Galois group of K.
So there's some kind of "specialization" map from the galois group of the larger field to that of the smaller.
Oct 17, 2013 01:54
This kind of happens for topological spaces too -- let's see if I can trigger that.
Anyway. His comment seems suggestive of the idea of "specialization" maps from one Morava stabilizer to the next (or, at least, from a subgroup of it).
I'm not sure if you can actually make that go.
ah, right:
if X is a topological space, Z < X is closed and is a deformation retract of a neighborhood V, and U is the complement of Z
then there are maps of fundamental groups pi_1(X) <- pi_1(U cap V) -> pi_1(Z)
hmmm.
It seems to me that we'd be better off working with E_n or E(n) than K(n)
If we want to specialize.
Oct 17, 2013 01:59
Very possible.
Oh, but, I guess in the analogy E_n is like the DVR
But somehow what Jack wrote has him taking O and modding out by p
that's like taking your FGL and modding out by the multiplication-by-p endomorphism
Oct 17, 2013 01:59
which restricts you to the action on the p-torsion part, i.e. E^*[[x]]/[p](x)
Yeah, I don't really get why he wants to mod out by p.
modding out by the p-series progressively starts with E_n and produces K(n)
Hrm.
Okay. Sure.
Well, what he says isn't really true if you don't.
There aren't really natural maps between adjacent Morava stabilizers otherwise.
There isn't really anything special about the multiplicative group here, though, right? Isn't the same construction going to always give my a map from the n'th Morava stabiliser algebra to truncated polynomials in F_{p^n}?
Oct 17, 2013 02:01
Yeah. I mean, there's not really anything corresponding to E_\infty is there?
(i.e. the infty'th Morava E-theory)
Yes, that's true.
No, there's no fancy power operation stuff here, this is just algebra on M_{fgl} so far.
Oh. Sorry, I'm incapable of reading E_infty without interpreting it a specific way.
So somehow, if we want to end up over HF_p, which is this sort of infinite codimension closed subset of M_{fg}, we're going to have to mod out by p at some point.
No, I don't think there's an infty'th E-theory.
Yeah sorry, after writing that I realized it was really unclear.
lol
Yes; and we're also going to have to mod by v_1, and v_2, and all the other coefficients of the p-series.
Oct 17, 2013 02:03
Yesssss.
@Craig: Right, this doesn't have anything to do with the multiplicative group.
In fact, that's what's confusing me: he's taking a limit of the Morava stabilizer algebras in a way that seems illegitimate.
We should be able to explicitly compute the units in F_q[F]/F^n, right?
let's see
F_q^{\times} = \mu_{q-1} if n=1
But it also seems to be taking something close to classical (the Morava K-theories of a space only depend on their cohomologies beyong a certain stage) and asserting it as some kind of compatibility among actions of the Morava stabilizers for coherent sheaves on M_fgl.
Yeah, the units are just those with nonzero constant coefficient.
Oct 17, 2013 02:05
no, I don't think so.
for instance, F is a zero divisor
ack
i'm an idiot
you're right
I think you were about to calculate the units the same way anyway and I interrupted you
but wait, are we talking about F_q[[F]]/F^n or F_q[F]/F^n
same thing
aha
of course.
lol
derrrrr
@TylerLawson: yup
Uh, so wait, is that then just going to give me F_{q^n}^\times = \mu_{q^n-1}?
Oct 17, 2013 02:07
Yeah, jeez, so at each point we're basically adding a Milnor Q_i
yep
which is cyclic
Yay characters
(is that the group scheme?)
(\mu_{q^n-1})
I really just meant that the invertible elements in the ring F_{q^n} are the q^n-1st roots of unity
Is he like.... talking about building the Steenrod algebra piece by piece? Is that some part of this? Or is that just really obvious?
OH, ok.
Oct 17, 2013 02:09
\mu_{q^n-1} is a way to write roots of unity for those of us who have had so much category theory that we are uncomfortable identifying them with Z/(q^n-1)
and that's the cyclic group of order q^n-1
Hooray!
Right, okaycool.
Can those of us who were at the Northwestern conference have a moment of enjoyment for Ravenel's distinction between C_2, Z/2 and F_2?
(But at least \mu_{p^n} is a group scheme anyway though right?)
actually, you didn't need to be there to enjoy that
Oct 17, 2013 02:10
Well, I think it's what AGers use to denote basically the same thing, as a group scheme.
And like, we've got both honest groups and group schemes running around here, and I wanted to make sure I wasn't cornfused.
in this case, it happens to (locally) be isomorphic to a constant group scheme
Haha, sure.
which is cyclic of order q^n-1
Oct 17, 2013 02:12
Phew
So Jack is telling us how to get a character from the Morava stabiliser group to the cycklic group of order q^n-1
right.
Okay. But what's this equivariant sheaf then? I mean, what's it equivariant with respect to?
right. so Jack appears to be telling us that for large n these are all the same
Yes.
OH. Derrrrr it's MU(X)
Erm. BP. Or whatever.
or, sorry: if you take a sheaf on M_fgl and look at the associated characters on its fibers, then for large n they are all the same.
Oct 17, 2013 02:14
@TylerLawson, by "these", do you mean for different fgl's?
I see, yess.
I'm trying to figure out if this is obvious.
Is there a different way to talk about the "associated characters on its fibers"?
You have this filtration of BP by these ring spectra P(n) with homotopy Z/p[v_n, v_{n+1}, ...]
Right.
Like, I really suck at representation theory.
interjection: let's see, if n=1, this is just the fact that Z_p^\times has \mu_{p-1} as a quotient
Oct 17, 2013 02:16
and it maps to all the K(m) for n > m. It seems to me like the associated characters on the K(m) might be detected on P(n)
can you unwind that statement?
like... what would it mean for the characters to be "detected"?
Good question!
I think I mean the following:
We have maps P(n)_* P(n) -> K(m)_* K(m) for all m >= n.
That maps hits the bottom few "Milnor primitives" Q^i, and it also hits a bunch of the Morava stabilizer algebra.
I guess the claim would be that for X finite, and n large...
YEahhhhhh, so I was wrong, obviously we don't want to use E_n, we want to use the complement of E_n, P(n), as you say.
Oct 17, 2013 02:19
@Drew: is it a familiar fact that G_2 (say over F_3, since that's your favourite prime), admits a map to F_9^\times, the cyclic group of order 8? I s'pose that if we're keeping with what Jack's written here, we should be looking at G_2 over F_9, and finding a map to F_{81}^\times = Z/80...
we have K(m)_* X = K(m)_* tensored with P(n)_*X over P(n)_*
and so P(n)_*X determines K(m)_* X, and moreover some of the "Morava stabilizer" action from K(m)_* K(m) is determined by the action of whatever lifts to P(n)_* P(n).
And perhaps the same statements lift to M_fgl.
(wave hands)
Craig, that doesn't appear obvious. But then I've only ever read about maximal finite subgroups. Then at n=2,p=3 there are only 2 conjugacy classes of max finite subgroups; C_2 and the (non-trivial) semi-direct product of C_3 and C_4
(That's for S_2 anyway)
Oct 17, 2013 02:23
hrm. that's somehow unsatisfying, but it seems in the vein of what Jack is saying ... that there's some "master" information behind the scenes that governs both the Morava stabilizer action mod-p and the Steenrod coaction.
Tyler, possibly related: have you ever thought about a spectral sequence coming from a sequence of generalized Moore spectra: S-->M(p^i)-->M(p^{i},v_1^{j})-->...
Hrm.
So the layers there are also suspensions of Moore spectra
and the target would be the homotopy of the colimit of these Moore spectra. right?
hmmmm, yeah, okay.... maybe that's not quite what i want. those layers don't sound right.
okay. back to our regular programming
Huh, maybe this C_8 is the (not so semi-)direct product of the Galois C_2 with the C_4 in the maximal finite. But that only works if that C_4 splits off of S_2...
So I think the Galois C_2 and the C_4 give you Q_8
Oct 17, 2013 02:29
right
Whoa guys. This isn't the group theory chat room.
@Craig: so any quotient of G_2 that's prime-to-3 factors through the quotient by the ideal generated by F, which is (I think!) GL_2(Z/3)
ALGEBRAIC topology right Jon?
@JonBeardsley are you sure
No. I'm not sure of anything anymore.
We'll take what we can get.
Oct 17, 2013 02:31
What is F? I wasn't paying enough attention
I think it's the Frobenius?.
If we're still talking about the Morava stabilizer algebra.
it's what Ravenel calls S
yeah, it's the element that is sometimes called S in the division algebra
too slow
Oct 17, 2013 02:31
Ah OK. Good old S
go @TylerLawson
Jon, maybe you just need to convince Jack to come on here!
damn group theory. is C_8 a quotient of GL_2(Z/3)?
I think it's a field of def'n issue
GL_2(F_9) will act on F_9[F]/F^2
Haha. He might, if I tell him Tyler and Craig are on here wilin' out.
But I already tried to get him to get a twitter acct.
Oct 17, 2013 02:33
= F_9 \oplus F_9
He wasn't having it.
omigod, Jack on twitter, best thing ever
I KNO!
But, yeah, he refused. I think he worries about having even less time than he already has.
OH. Damn it. Yes, I'm making mistakes.
So: this group is not \mu_8; I think it's a subgroup of GL_2(F_9) of order 8
Oct 17, 2013 02:35
So the quotient of S_2 by the 3-sylow is F_9^x, which "is Z/8" generated by an 8th root of unity in F_9
and in G_2 you get a semidirect product of this Z/8 by Z/2
Wait.... am i being stupid. Is the composition $M(p^{i_0})\to M(p^{i_1},v_1^{i_1})\to M(p^{i_0},v_1^{i_1},v_2^{i_2})$, where the maps are the cofibers, a trivial composition?
nope, it's not trivial
Okay, good.
craig, now I'm confused. where did GL_2(F_9) come in?
@Drew your buddy travis is making trades like a wild man in fantasy
or attempting to
Oct 17, 2013 02:38
@JonBeardsley, I think he is losing pretty badly
Yeah. He's offered me one. I dunno yet.
He really wants Giovanni Bernard.
Is there any meaningful interpretation of K(n)_\ast(K(n)) as THH?
Do you want it to be THH?
I dunno.
I don't know what I want anymore.
Doesn't (F_9[F] / F^2)^\times act on the rank 2 F_9 vector space F_9[F] / F^2? This gives a map to GL_2(F_9)...
Ah, yes. Good point.
I think that's even upper triangular if you give it the basis {1,F}.
Oct 17, 2013 02:40
rightyo
Jack's given me a thesis project that's very geometrical. Which is cool. But I'm kind of bummed I'm getting away from chromatic stuff.
(Hence not knowing what I want, nor being sure of anything)
Just find some link to chromatic homotopy theory!
Define "geometrical".
Ahaha, well it's linked to "odd formal group laws" which are linked to MU, sort of.
Looking at some connections between MSp, MU, MSO, Hopf-Galois extensions, stuff like that.
Well, perhaps "stuff like that" doesn't really help explain anything.
AH. Err, I might contend that this sounds relatively chromatic to me. ;)
Oct 17, 2013 02:44
Haha. That's true. I just miss out on all the Morava E-theory fun.
E-theory even only looks at one chromatic layer, you're doing something MORE chromatic
though, of course, E-theory is fun too
I'm really rackin' up the stars tonight.
Wednesday nights should be Jack Morava night in the homotopy chat room.
Okay.... that's enough.
You guys are lucky I like seeing my name on the internet, otherwise I'd be deleting all those stars.
Maybe I'll just send the transcript of this chatroom along with all my job applications.
Oct 17, 2013 02:51
publications, MO rep, star count
Yeah.
It'd be more valuable I think if I could say who the stars were from.
Like, 10 stars from a tenured researcher = 1 recommendation letter.
@NatStapleton where are you going to get a job!??
Please for the love of christ say Johns Hopkins.
so what's the consensus on page 9
A resounding maybe.
it leads into page 10
I think that it gives us a homomorphism from G_n to GL_n(F_q) whose image has order at most q^n-1
Oct 17, 2013 03:00
i had some other questions in the brick from last night that weren't literally on page 9, like: On / p is like End (Ga taken to order p^n), which sounds like the story involving A(n)
(Presumably)
can that be made solid
being of height n means you have a logarithm defined beneath order p^n, probably not an accident
hm i've never actually thought about P(n), maybe i should learn some basic facts
unfortunately P(n) isn't commutative at p=2
well that's what you get when you go quotienting things
Yeah, don't mess with stuff. Just let it be. Just accept what you've got.
Oct 17, 2013 03:09
Two things: first O_n/ p is an algebra, and so acts on itself, giving a map O(n) / p ---> End(O(n)/p). But second: I think the fact that O_n/p is rank n over F_q, and not rank n^2 (the rank of End(O(n)/p) means that this map only realises O(n)/p as a subalgebra of End(O(n)/p) = Mat_n(F_q), and not the whole thing (unless n=1)
 
Conversation ended Oct 17, 2013 at 3:09.