Fate Hack & Slash discussion 2: skills and magic

doppelgreener

Sep 29, 2014 03:52

I've noticed... a thing

Sep 24 at 8:58, by BESW

MODE: CASTER
Burninate
Heal
Fix
Break

Sep 24 at 8:58, by BESW

MODE: WILDERNESS
Shoot
Track
Fix
Heal

^ this kind of thing feels... good. It feels right somehow.

^ and this is the kind of effect I want to achieve.

The modes seem to be sort-of that and sort-of not, in that they still package up skills.

and I am also aware that "what you are" is what aspects do.

[edits middle part of diagram]

but maybe the solution is...

Sep 24 at 9:02, by doppelgreener

So a +3 Wilderness +2 Caster has...

Shoot +3
Track +3
Heal +4
Fix +4
Burninate +2
Break +2

give people a broad range of competence by giving them lots of skills. Give them specialisation by not giving them all the skills.

(But... can a caster holding a gun Shoot? Can they use Blades? Surely a Knight can Fix things decently. But can a Knight in desperation, without armor or weaponry, use Burninate?)

(I think it would be interesting to say "yes but you're bad at it")

allow skills to be used with broader justification. Fight doesn't exist. You fight by using stuff that you can attack with or create advantages with.

but nevertheless, use skills.

BESW

Alternately, you could use the aspects-only hack.

doppelgreener

Sep 29, 2014 04:08

Something about that hack leaves me dissatisfied.

Like, maybe it's simply that you don't have that extra layer of things telling you what you're good at. That is missing in that hack, and I'm used to it.

BESW

Fair enough.

As for "can a caster Shoot? can a knight Burninate?" it's a matter of narrative permission.

doppelgreener

It also means I have to be careful about my aspect creation so as to leave myself capable in the right situations. If I use Skills, I can be relatively careless with my character's aspects and just talk about my character, because I have Skills to reliably tell me what I can and can't do and how well I do it.

BESW

A caster can probably try to Shoot with a gun, but he's got +0 in it.

This is because "I have a gun" is sufficient permission to try to use it.

A knight probably can't use Burninate without more effort because in a D&D-like setting magic is harder to get permission for: there's not really a magical equivalent to "picking up a gun."

doppelgreener

@BESW yeah, though breaking that mould leaves me with a pretty compelling idea:

Everyone possesses some magic. A non-magic user is just someone who sucks at it, but they can nevertheless go pew pew with their finger if they can, somehow, stop sucking at it for a few seconds.

BESW

Sep 29, 2014 04:26

I've read a few settings like that.

Often it's a matter of know-how and/or bravery/foolishness.

Anyone can do it if they take the time to learn the techniques--but it's hard and dangerous work, so few do.

This can be framed in terms of "trying to channel raw power into guided form," which is difficult and can burn you out or have unintended results--or the powers you're channelling are conscious and malicious, Lovecraft-style.

doppelgreener

I am back from getting a coffee, and the moment I stepped out the door I realised something: my goals have shifted on this a little and I haven't mentioned it, mainly because I didn't notice it.

This project is, at this point, not an attempt to recreate D&D's stuff in Fate.

BESW

Yey!

doppelgreener

It's an attempt to recreate that Fantasy Hack & Slash aesthetic in Fate. Games like Dark Souls, Rogue, Nethack, and others are also an attempt to interpret that aesthetic. D&D is just one more attempt at interpreting that aesthetic. (Ignoring any temporal or cultural significance in it doing so.) It is one that does it very well in certain ways, and it should be learned from for its benefits and faults, just like the other interpretations.

BESW

Okay, so we approach it like any Fate game, then.

doppelgreener

Exactly

:)

BESW

Sep 29, 2014 04:38

Focus on story and narrative goals.

doppelgreener

A Fate game that is probably also going to have loot.

BESW

Part of the characters' goals is "get shiny lewts," so accomplishing goals will include getting loot.

doppelgreener

Sep 29, 2014 05:08

@BESW part of it is also "kick ass and take names"

BESW

Well, yes.

doppelgreener

in these games, being a competent conversationalist, or having a thing called a "backstory", is rarely called for. (very often you are the Silent Protagonist.)

BESW

"Damnit, this goblin wasn't carrying ID."
"That's ANOTHER John Doe on the list. We should probably get them to introduce themselves first next time."

doppelgreener

"Truenamer, get in here! My notebook's got a line glaring at me."
"Sorry guys, I'd be able to tell you if only SOMEONE hadn't knocked the goblin's head down the crevasse."

doppelgreener

Sep 29, 2014 05:22

@BESW there is also Dark Souls, which has only three kinds of offensive magic: pure unfettered magic (think magic missile or eldritch bolt), or the two elements of lightning and fire.

you can utilise them as a sorcerer (who invests in a spellcasting attribute, I can't remember what it's called), as a cleric of faith (who invests in the Faith attribute), or a pyromancer (who merely invests currency, and who has only limited access to spells).

actually that might not be too educational though, because in that the answer to what happens if you try to do stuff you can't do is "you just can't"

but it is still an interesting idea, not having access to all the elements

but yeah, i'd be interested to explore a world where there isn't a harsh divide between "you have magic" and "you don't"

someone who studies pyromancy can use blades, someone who studies blades can use pyromancy. it's just a really bad idea in both cases.

because you suck and you're going to get yourself stabbed/immolated.

BESW

Hmm.

That sounds like increasing failure chances...

Maybe difficulties are higher if you don't have an aspect saying you're good at a thing? That seems overcomplicated.

doppelgreener

well, there's options:
- the baseline for skills you don't have is not +0, it's -2.
- attempting something you are unskilled at always comes at a minor cost. success with style lets you avoid the cost.
- failure comes at a major cost.

(individual options, not 'do all these things at once' necessarily)

BESW

May I suggest that you not pre-define magic?

doppelgreener

What do you suggest I do instead?

BESW

Let each player define the magic his own character casts, and if someone else's character wants to try their hand at it, we figure out the costs at the time.

doppelgreener

Sep 29, 2014 05:36

Sure.

BESW

Remember how we did magic in Enchanted Forest?

doppelgreener

Yes. We didn't. People had stunts that were magical in nature, and we did things we could justify using skills. (Stellata could justify doing Weird Plant Stuff, attacking through making her surroundings move for her, etc.) We just defined Cool Stuff Our Characters Could Do, and in the process wound up with various kinds of magic.

Which is pretty cool.

BESW

If someone wants to create something more crunchy for their character, they can.

For example, a blood mage might ask to be allowed to spend stress for bonuses on casting rolls.

doppelgreener

That's cool.

What do you suggest be done about this? I do think it's useful in this aesthetic to use Skills, not Approaches. Magic is likely to be represented with a Skill.

BESW

Agreed.

doppelgreener

Sep 29, 2014 05:41

This also means that if someone wants to be magical at more than one thing, they probably should come up with their own Mode.

BESW

Some casters might use stunts and extras to add trappings to existing skills, like defending against physical attack with Will.

doppelgreener

so that they don't pile on {Magic}, Heal, Fix and Break twice. (Though it could certainly be viable to provide some example magical Modes.)

BESW

Other casters might invent a separate Magic skill with its own unique trappings.

doppelgreener

@BESW You seem like you have a vested interest in this system winding up with magic that leaves room for the characters to define it. I want it to have that too. So I want you to help me make sure it does. :)

(and be the person who points out I am revisiting the Bad Place when I do stuff that will rob the game of having that.)

BESW

Here's the trick, and it's a trick I have a really hard time using: Don't prep.

The trick to Fate games that are player-defined is for the GM to come to the table with no more plans than the players have.

I'm REALLY BAD at this.

doppelgreener

Sep 29, 2014 05:44

You're talking about the session where I'll run this hack rather than the hack itself, right?

(I am interested in developing this hack as something I share with others, a la Dungeons of Fate, if I can bring it to that stage.)

BESW

Basically, don't prep any pre-session magic hacks.

See what the players do, learn from it in action, refine it, and share that.

Once a Fate game has started, the GM needs to do prep in terms of matching various world and character elements together in dramatic ways, and statting up the NPCs, and so forth.

But before a Fate game starts, if it's really going to give the players room to invent and create, the GM should have minimal ideas going into the first campaign-building session.

doppelgreener

Alright.

BESW

This is really really hard for me to do, so I'm a bad example.

Now, if you want to present a fait accompli pre-made setting for the players to plug into, like Dresden Files and Atomic Robo and Aeon Wave and so forth, that's obviously a totally acceptable playstyle.

doppelgreener

What I'm interested in is building something that advises you in how to do that. I am interested in doing something which may not be super crunchy, but is at least a little bit crispy.

BESW

But in this case, specifically with magic.... hrm.

You could, for example, limit the mechanics which it's permissible to use for magic.

Like "you must invent a unique Magic skill rather than using 1/session stunts or existing skills."

Or "Magic must come at a cost, but stunts can mitigate the cost."

doppelgreener

Sep 29, 2014 05:54

hmmmmmmmmm.

Ok. One thing I'm interested in is the minor magic user: building someone with Heavy Armor and Blades, and letting him have a stunt where he uses the sheer might of his conviction to smite the daylights out of the unholy.

BESW

Okay, so:

doppelgreener

"Once per Conflict I can add Weapon:2 to an Attack done in the name of my divine convictions."

But I also want to enable the guy who solves a lot of problems with Fire or Ice magic.

(Though there are problems which cannot be solved with those.)

BESW

> Because I'm a paladin of Pelor, I add wpn:2 to attacks against the Un-Dead.
> Because I'm a paladin of Pelor, my attacks against the Un-Dead ignore all damage mitigation, including armour rating and incorporeality.
> Because I'm a paladin of Pelor, once per session I can place the "Blazing Light of Pelor" aspect on a zone with two free invokes.
> Because I'm a paladin of Pelor, whenever I get style when creating advantages against the Un-Undead I can inflict 2 stress on one Un-Dead target in addition to the other effects of my action.

All of those are "I wield a sword but have supplemental magic to smite the daylights out of the unholy."

doppelgreener

So, someone like a Blood Mage, or a Necromancer, or an Ice Mage (not to be confused with a Nice Mage) models how their magic permits them to do things through their stunts and narrative description?

(Which works, because people are going to get a lot of stunts.)

BESW

Right.

At the end of the day, everything is "I can do something cool." It's just a matter of how many of the cool things you narrate as "magical" or "mundane."

Oct 24 '13 at 17:00, by BESW

I think the honest best answer is SSD whooshing in, shouting "Narrative before mechanics!" and bat-grappling up out of the thread.

doppelgreener

Sep 29, 2014 06:08

@BESW ok, I like this.

@BESW Haha! It is.

BESW

And that's why I feel like "no prep is better prep."

We don't know the narrative of magic yet.

If you want to pre-define the narrative of magic (as DFRPG did), then you can work on mechanics before the game.

doppelgreener

But, then, we gotta consider what mechanics support a good narrative: we're not solving a game situation. We're considering the mechanical elements that, when offered, naturally lead to dramatic hack and slash.

This is that "put these mechanics in the same room, and you'll get this result out of it."

BESW

Okay, so dramatic hack-and-slash.

Not social magic. Not save-or-lose magic.

doppelgreener

What do you mean save-or-lose magic?

Like save-or-die finger of death?

BESW

See @Lord_Gareth's handy guide to combat conditions.

We want to avoid save-or-lose and save-or-die.

doppelgreener

Sep 29, 2014 06:16

Yes, we do.

I am okay with supporting social stuff in this game. But if I do that, I want to do a proper job of it, or not do it at all and be up-front about it.

BESW

I'm thinking that you might want to revisit the LoL PC concept.

Pre-made PCs based on arena characters.

Since arena games are already dramatic hack-and-slash, it'd be a good departure point for the experiment.

doppelgreener

Are they?

The games themselves are tense and cool I guess!

and I can experiment with modelling various characters from LoL.

A key thing I want to do though is be able to set a document up that says: "This is what works really well."

And that might be: "Make it up, and figure out the best way to model it."

BESW

Welp, first you need a baseline to experiment from.

doppelgreener

Or it might be: "You should model this kind of thing like this. You should model this other kind of thing like this. If you put all ten of your stunts into passively making your grenade launcher attack super powerful, erase at least five of those and find something else to be good at."

doppelgreener

Sep 29, 2014 06:39

There was another idea I was considering. I like the stunts idea more because it lets people define their own magic. But I'll mention it anyway.

Bindings: pick a type of magic. Now pick several skills. You can use that type of magic with those skills. Most magic users would be very interested in binding their magic to Shoot.

BESW

What benefit does it grant?

doppelgreener

If Melee combat has Blades, should there be skills like Clubs, and should Shoot be Bows and Rifles?

It means you can shoot fireballs, it was before you suggested leaving things to stunts, which I like.

BESW

@doppelgreener This is a skillset tweak that I think has potential: shattering combat-focused skills into many smaller pieces.

@doppelgreener What does "shoot fireball" mean, though? Does it mean I can use Shoot to target all creatures in a zone without penalty?

doppelgreener

On that, as a baseline, if I didn't break things down, I'd have three attack skills: melee, shoot, and bolt.

Bolt is for launching magic, because skill at that is not skill with a gun or a bow.

Lord_Gareth

I HEAR THE SUMMONS?

doppelgreener

Sep 29, 2014 06:50

So you'd have Fire bound to Bolt, Break, and Intimidate.

If I broke it down, I'd have Slash and Smash as melee skills, Gun and Bow for range, and I don't know what for magic. Maybe also Stabs and Throwing?

BESW

Maybe magic would get broken down into either target type or purpose type.

doppelgreener

Like Heal, Destroy, and Change?

BESW

That could work, or break it down further: Splash, Bolt, Blast, etc

doppelgreener

(I like the idea of making AOE vs single vs multiple an option available to all actions)

BESW

Or elemental: Burn, Freeze, Blow...

doppelgreener

Sep 29, 2014 06:55

Sword blast for a huge slash, sword splash for someone spinning around like a whirlwind.

BESW

But again, in the interests of narrative, there should be room for invention.

I'd be interested, for example, in creating a caster with the Bind skill.

I could Bind two minds together so they can speak telepathically, or Bind a person's feet to the floor so they can't move, or Bind a demon into service for me.

doppelgreener

I'm interested in supporting magic oriented skills.

That sounds like it would be Mental Change. Or Change with a rules breaker stunt.

Or, Bind with a broad range of uses.

Magic by definition exists to break the rules, so that does mean there may be a need for new skills.

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