Conversation started Jul 2, 2018 at 14:09.
Jul 2, 2018 14:09
It's proposition 9.3.2 in tom Dieck's book if you have a pdf available
okay, what about it?
I want to consider those $\eta_\bullet^t$ as natural transformations between functors. Those functors are the functors TOP->ABEL associated to $S_\bullet(X)$ and $S_\bullet(X\times I)$, right?
I think they should go from TOP to the category of chain complexes of Abelian groups
Hmm, I was thinking about the functors $S_q$ sending $X$ to $S_q(X)$ (the q-th group of chains) and $f:X\to Y$ to the induced map $S_q(X)\to S_q(Y)$
What you mean is instead the functor that sends $X$ to $S_\bullet(X)$ and $f:X\to Y$ to the associated chain map $S_\bullet(X)\to S_\bullet(Y)$, right?
yeah
but maybe you're confusion is caused by something else. The $\eta_\bullet^t$ are not used in the proof of 9.3.2
9.3.2 just follows from the cone construction that is discussed before that
he showed that the identity map is chain-homotopic to $\varepsilon$ and notes that $\varepsilon$ induces the zero map on $H_n(X)$ for $n>0$
but the only abelian group where the identity map is the zero map is the trivial group
note that he put a square right after the statement of 9.3.2 which means that it is clear from the above discussion
Jul 2, 2018 14:22
Oh, lol, I didn't notice the square and was like "but doesn't it just follow from the cone construction? I guess those $\eta_\bullet^t$ must be useful for something!" feels dumb
the $\eta_\bullet^t$ are used in the theorem after that
Ok, that's very nice as far as 9.3.2 is concerned then! However I don't see why the $\eta_\bullet^t$ are natural transformations (probably because my experience with natural transformation is limited to our conversation from the other day)
So you have two functors from TOP to chain complexes of abelian groups, one sends $X$ to $S_\bullet(X)$ and the other one sends $X$ to $S_\bullet(X \times I)$
Right, and they send a continuous map $f:X\to Y$ maps between topological spaces to the induced chain maps $f_\bullet:S_\bullet(X)\to S_\bullet(Y)$ and $(f\times \mathrm{Id})_\bullet:S_\bullet(X\times I)\to S_\bullet(Y\times I)$
and tom Dieck claims that the $\eta_\bullet^t$ are natural transformations, the reason for naturality is basically just that the square $\require{AMScd} \begin{CD}
X @>>{\eta^t_X}> X \times I\\
@V{f}VV @VV{f \times \mathrm{Id}}V\\
Y @>>{\eta^t_Y}> Y \times I
\end{CD}$ commutes
Jul 2, 2018 14:29
Hmm, let me think about it for a moment
I'm writing $\eta^t_X$ to keep track of which space where're considering the map $\eta$
So this diagram above says that $\eta^t$ (without going to the induced map on singular chains) is a natural transformation between the identity functor on TOP and the functor which sends $X \mapsto X \times I$ and $f:X \to Y$ to $f \times \mathrm{id}:X \times I \to Y \times I$
you have to check that it commutes, but that's basically obvious
@MatheinBoulomenos Ok I see that
and then you apply the functor $S_\bullet$ to that diagram
Oh, of course, functors preserve any diagram
and then you get that $\eta_\bullet^t$ is a natural transformation from the functor $X \mapsto S_\bullet(X)$ to the functor $X \mapsto S_\bullet(X \times I)$
that's a general principle: if $\eta: F \Rightarrow G$ is a natural transformation between parallel functors $F,G: \mathcal{C} \to \mathcal{D}$ and $H$ is any functor $H: \mathcal{D} \to \mathcal{E}$, then you can apply $H$ to each morphism in $\eta$ (since $\eta$ is a collection of morphisms satisfying some conditions) and you get that $H(\eta)$ is a natural transformation $H \circ F \Rightarrow H \circ G$
and the reason for this very abstract thing is just that functors preserve commutative diagrams, as you said
Jul 2, 2018 14:39
Parallel functors just means that they are both $\mathcal C\to\mathcal D$ or is there something more?
yeah that's the only thing parallel means here
So in our example $\mathcal{C}=\mathcal{D}=\mathbf{TOP}$ and $\mathcal{E}=\mathbf{CH}(\Bbb Z)$, the category of chain complexes of abelian groups and $F=\mathrm{Id}_{\mathbf{Top}}$ and $G: X \mapsto X \times I, (f:X \to Y) \mapsto (f \times \mathrm{Id}: X \times I \to Y \times I)$ and $H: \mathbf{Top} \to \mathbf{CH}(\Bbb Z), X \mapsto S_\bullet(X)$
and $\eta=\eta^t$
that was quite an abstract explanation, but I think it's in line with tom Dieck's style :P
the important thing to remember is that functors respect diagrams, the rest is just an obvservation that follows from that
To be fair he does prove 9.3.3 without abstract nonsense as well after the first proof
I like that he formulates acyclic models as a precise theorem
in my course, I just learned it as a vague principle for how some proofs work
Jul 2, 2018 14:43
From skimming it looks like the point of 9.3.3 is that homotopic maps induce chain homotopic maps on the chain complexes and we'll use that to conclude that homotopic maps induce the same homomorphisms of homology groups, seems promising! I'll read the details now, thanks a lot for your help
@MatheinBoulomenos I'm afraid I don't know what those are but I'll reach them eventually
@AlessandroCodenotti oh that's just a name for 11.5.1 which he uses in the abstract proof
but we learned it as a vaguely-defined proof technique
so it was nice to see a precise statement
Ah, I see
I'm kinda blackboxing the results he cites from Ch11 at the moment and postponing them for later
I looked up some of them from here, especially the snake lemma, because tom Dieck doesn't explain the connecting homomorphism when constructing the homology exact sequence in Ch9
Hi @Balarka, welcome back, this is the category theory chat room now
@AlessandroCodenotti yeah, showing that homotopic maps induce the same homomorphism has two parts: the algebraic part about chain complexes which is very easy. the more difficult part is that a continuous homotopy induces a chain homotopy but that's a consequence of 9.3.3
@AlessandroCodenotti tbf tom Dieck probably learned the snake lemma in the Kindergarden
Prism operator my dudes
@MatheinBoulomenos lol seems legit
 
Conversation ended Jul 2, 2018 at 14:48.