Conversation started Jan 27, 2022 at 9:39.
Jan 27, 2022 09:39
@all trisilylamine will be approx planar or completely planar?
approx planar it shuld be because there will be one tetrahedral resonating structure
Jan 27, 2022 10:00
@all What do you think about bond angle of C-O-C bond in ether, should it be less than 109
Jan 27, 2022 10:10
@LalitTolani Why do you think so?
 
2 hours later…
Jan 27, 2022 12:07
@Wolgwang Clemmensen/Wolf-kishner/Mozingo/catalytic hydrogenation (pd/pt + C) followed by either Pd/C + heat or Se + heat
aromatisation is covered in aromatic compounds in 12th I think
@LalitTolani it should be completely planar... I don't understand why you think it should only be approx planar?
@LalitTolani I believe it is greater than 109 because of steric clashes between the alkyl groups; I don't think its possible to theoretically predict the angle without computation anyway.
Jan 27, 2022 12:26
@LalitTolani C-O-C bond angle in methoxy methane is 111.7 according to NCERT
So nearly all ethers should have it greater than 109
 
1 hour later…
Jan 27, 2022 13:42
@AshishAhuja because of sp3 hybridised resonance structure
@YashAgrawal yes I checked that, here I think steric factors wins over the lone pair-lone pair repulsion
Jan 27, 2022 14:41
@LalitTolani but central atom and two groups would be anyways planar only
note that maximum no. of planar atoms in a tetrahedral geometry is 3 (C.A + any two surroundings)
Jan 27, 2022 15:03
@YashAgrawal So?
Jan 27, 2022 15:53
@LalitTolani well that way there would be a resonance structure of carbonic acid (h2co3) where the carbon has a negative charge, but you wouldn't say the carbonic acid is "approximately planar", would you?
There is a continuous d pi - p pi conjugation across trisilylamine, talking about certain extreme resonance structures is of little value.
Jan 27, 2022 16:07
@LalitTolani Ignore it , I interpreted something wrong
@LalitTolani resonating structures are only contribution to real structures , they themselves doesn't exist or remains in equilibrium , bond order is 4/3 b/w N and Si so it is simultaneously back bonding with all three Si , so electron density is distributed throughout
Jan 27, 2022 16:41
@AshishAhuja but sp3 hybridised nitrogen with three single bonded groups wouldn't be an extreme resonance structure , also negative charge on carbon with positive charge on oxygen wouldn't be least contributing
Jan 27, 2022 16:57
15
Q: Hybridization of nitrogen in trisilylamine, (SiH3)3N?

heyI want to know the hybridization of the central atom in $\ce{(SiH3)3N}$. I think it should be $\mathrm{sp^3}$, because $\ce{N}$ is attached to three silicon atoms and one lone pair. But actually it is supposedly $\mathrm{sp^2}$. How is this so?

looks like its not even d pi - p pi as I said it was.. I think this is beyond my understanding and I can't really help much, but I think thinking in terms of resonance structures here isn't very useful, because as the answer to the above question describes, the bonding isn't straightforward like the cases in which resonance is applied.
@AshishAhuja i think i am thinking too much
@LalitTolani problem with inorganic chemistry is that what theory is being taught isn't entirely correct So it can't explain all properties and behaviours of many compounds , so sometimes even giving reasons is merely an way to remember
@YashAgrawal yes you are right, even hybridisation is wrong and mot we have learnt is for diatomic molecules only
yes , best we can do is accept things at this stage ;(
Jan 27, 2022 17:22
@YashAgrawal yes
 
28 hours later…
Jan 28, 2022 21:43
@all How can we compare stability of halide ions
 
18 hours later…
Jan 29, 2022 16:06
First up, realize that the case of "resonance = completely planar" is but an idealization: The maximum overlap requires orthogonality, but any slight bending in or out of shape doesn't automatically mean that overlap is zero. The overlap can actually be thought of like a continuous function, where the overlap oscillates between 0 to 1 as you go from parallel to perpendicular orbitals.
Secondly,forget resonance and stuff for now. The ENTIRETY of chemical bonding follows one simple intuitive principle: energetic optimization. Again, think of hybridizations like a continuous function, as in, (s^x)(p^y), where 0<x<=1 and 0<y<=3. These limits stem from the fact that God has "decided" that for a given n, you will get only one s orbital and three p orbitals where the energy(s) < energy(p). However, hybridization is a function you made up
So it means you get to decide how much of the s and p orbitals you want to take, right? The sp, sp2, and sp3 are discrete values of energetic minima you can possibly get (with sp as the global minima, followed by sp2 and sp3. Think why :)
But at their core, what are these so-called "orbitals"? Functions! This means you have all the liberty in the world to take whatever scaled version you want so long as you stay within the limits. In fact, you can differentiate the general equation H(x,y) = s^xp^y to get the critical points (which indeed come to be sp, sp2 and sp3!)
Simply getting this wisdom makes you realise one thing: There is no need to break a lot of sweat about what hybridization each molecule is taking, because it could just as easily have been s^(0.5)p^(2.474) and then none of the standard geometries you have associated with the discrete minima of H(x,y) (what am I referring to here?) will fit, as it is simply a matter of mathematical manipulation! If you are a little well-versed in calculus and graphing, you may even plot H(x,y).
in the given limits and see it's behavior :)
So when you say "Some molecule XY4 is sp3 hybridized". What you actually mean is "The closest approximation of the hybridization function H(x,y) is sp3". Sadly, most of your coaching teachers don't have this wisdom and simply cry "Exception!" as they can't deal with two-variable functions :)
Jan 29, 2022 16:41
This idea of looking at orbitals as functions is what gives rise to the molecular orbital theory. Take your trisilylamine (for example). The silicon is bonded using sp3 hybrid orbitals (taking the liberty mentioned above :) to hydrogens who are using their 1s orbitals. Again, f(sp3) is a function, g(1s) is a function. It means that we can write a function k(f(sp3) + g(1s)) that will minimize energy for some k belonging to R. Now, what is this sudden maths I threw here?!
Do you know what this function is? This function represents the Si-H sigma bond! :) The simple visualization you make when you make an "orbital diagram" of a kinda lobe-shaped sp3 hybrid orbital "overlapping" with a spherical 1s hydrogen orbital, you were actually making a visual representation of this very linear combination of atomic orbitals (LCAO). (Heard this name? Nothing more than this algebraic addition of functions :)
But wait, I could have also combined these as f(sp3) - g(1s) right? (Forget the coefficient for now). Seems like a valid additive operation with just the sign changed. Hmm, great. Let me call this function "sigma*" for now (you will see why).
Now, there are popular science ideas right, like every particle has an "anti-particle" right. Combine two of them and they nullify sthg like that :)
Although this is not related, this isexactly what you mean by two quantities bein "anti". Getting back to our functions, if f(sp3) + g(1s) was our like our "particle", f(sp3) - g(1s) is kinda like our "anti-particle" right? (just an analogy, don't challenge me here :)
Whatever effect adding those two functions had, adding the minus sign guy just nullified that! It's like only the effect of one function remains, just "amplified" a bit by a factor of 2 (2f(sp3)). Hence this minus guy has a special name- if addition if the "bonding" orbital function, this is the "anti-bonding" orbital function :)
Now, visualization: If the bonding molecular orbital could be seen as overlap of constituent atomic orbitals between the N and Si centers, where should the antibonding guy be located? If it is indeed "anti", this particular combination should lie outside the N and Si along the same line!
This is precisely how you see the sigma* Si-H. Now, since the sigma bond can rotate freely, the "anti-sigma" bond should also be able to rotate freely (logical). Adjacently you have N with lone pairs in a parallel p-orbital. Clearly you can have aligenments where the sigma* Si-H orbital can overlap with the lone pairs of N. As soon as it accepts electrons: boom! The sigma bond had two electrons, anti sigma bond has two electrons, so they nullify. Si-H bond breaks and a new Si=N forms
This is exactly what's described in that answer :-). Such overlaps can generally take place anywhere when the anti-guy can overlap with an electron source, it cancels out with it's counterpart, and hence a conjugation sets up which brings nearbout planarity for max overlap
Also, I posed a question longtime ago but got caught up in sthg so couldn't reply, sorry for that. Am posting the solution for that and also a few of my answers on inorganic reactions that should help you develop an intuition for things :)
^This is the solution for the question I posed on Dec 21(Scroll till the end under the EDIT section)
12
A: Why is Aluminium oxide amphoteric?

Yusuf HasanI will be using an approach which has been enlisted in the following book for answering this question: Arrow Pushing in Inorganic Chemistry ;A Logical Approach to the Chemistry of the Main-Group Elements To start off, please go through my answer to this question: Why is chromate stable in basic m...

18
A: Why is chromate stable in basic medium and dichromate stable in acidic medium?

Yusuf HasanI will be using an approach which has been enlisted in the following book for answering this question: Arrow Pushing in Inorganic Chemistry ;A Logical Approach to the Chemistry of the Main-Group Elements The preface of the book says: The approach: These reactions represent important facets of th...

Go through these answers and don't worry about the comments. The important idea is to get your motors running on highly probable ways these things can happen.
@AshishAhuja I also answered one of your questions similarly in the comments. Check the following and try to see if it makes sense :)
3
Q: Hydrolysis of Magnesium Carbide

Ashish AhujaI came across a question in which the following reaction was taking place: $$ \ce{Mg4C3 + H2O -> CH3CH \bond{#} CH} $$ Each $\ce{Mg}$ atom must be present in a +2 oxidation state, thus the total charge of the cation is +8. We thus have a $\ce{C3^{8-}}$ anion. The only structure of this $\ce{C3^{8...

Hope all of this helps :)
Jan 29, 2022 17:32
Please also go through the PDF below. It explains all the major reactions from your coursework related to phosphorous chemistry in a very easily digestible manner :)
Also an important side-note: the normal guy and anti guy orbitals exist "simultaneously" due to the idea that well, they both are possibilities for functional addition, and so both of these "vessels" will form. It's only that the electrons "fall" in the lower energy "vessel" (i.e. bonding orbital). But the other vessel still sits, waiting to catch incoming electrons and nullify it's counterpart (i.e. "bond breaking")
IMO if you understand even 50% of the ideas I have pitched just now, you are probably more eligible to teach a class on inorganic chemistry better than your teacher I daresay :-)
Jan 29, 2022 18:12
Sidenote 2: The book in the Drive link above has drawn phosphorous-oxygen double bonds (P=O) as P(+)-O(-). This as you can guess is just a resonance structure, and in fact, ends up being a little dominant due to the weak P=O pi bond. But they are completely equivalent representations, so don't feel confused by seeing double bonds shown that way :)
 
1 hour later…
Jan 29, 2022 19:21
@YashAgrawal You asked me about inorganic mechanisms. Go thru both my answers above and the Drive PDF, it should be relevant :)
In fact @all try going through all my messages above and more importantly, read all the links I have given. It should give you a satisfaction from inorganic chemistry that you may not have had earlier :)
 
Conversation ended Jan 29, 2022 at 19:23.