Conversation started Jul 21, 2014 at 3:16.
F.E.
F.E.
Jul 21, 2014 03:16
> Is this sentence grammatical: "If I had more time I would tell you guys what I liked and what I disliked." Or should I say it like this: "If I had more time I would tell you guys what I like and what I dislike." @Arrowfar
user116848
@F.E. Hello!
user116848
Yeah there is a debate about this
user116848
@F.E. tchrist says to use 'present' (second sentence) one I and others (snail, Cerbs) say that backshifted one is good. What do you think?
F.E.
F.E.
Let's assume for the moment that your sentence involves the use of preterites for modal remoteness. And so, an open conditional version could probably be:
1) "If I have more time I will tell you guys what I like and what I dislike."
Now, let's attempt to convert that to use modal remoteness--with the minimum amount of effort or changes:
2) "If I had more time I would tell you guys what I like and what I dislike."
A speaker would use the #2 version when he ain't got the time, or doesn't have the interest in telling you, what he likes or doesn't like.
Note that the subordinate clause has not used the backshift preterites for "like" and "dislike".
user116848
Why?
user116848
Jul 21, 2014 03:23
liked and disliked?
Anonymous
I said that both are okay, by the way :-)
F.E.
F.E.
Let's see what the modally remote version with backshift would look like:
3) "If I had more time I would tell you guys what I liked and what I disliked."
user116848
@snailboat Yeah thanks :D But I want to hear what FE says :D
Anonymous
@Arrowfar And I have in no way interfered with his ability to communicate
user116848
@snailboat :) haha thanks
user116848
Jul 21, 2014 03:26
@F.E. I am listening.
F.E.
F.E.
A general rule of thumb is that, often, the backshift version could be considered to be the default. Usually, backshift is optional. Though, there are some cases where it is strongly preferred or is strongly not allowed (and maybe some cases where its use or non-use is not optional).
Tigers got claws, and so, I got to type very carefully and very slowly.
user116848
Yes probably :D
user116848
You don't have to remove that.
user116848
in English Language & Usage, 2 hours ago, by tchrist
> But Jimmy knew that not everything is revealed at once.
user116848
@F.E. What do think about this sentence of his?
Anonymous
Jul 21, 2014 03:30
That is an interesting example, but it's clearly not the same as your earlier pair
F.E.
F.E.
What is the context?
user116848
@snailboat "But Jimmy knew that not everything was revealed at once" This okay?
Anonymous
Well, it doesn't mean the same thing.
user116848
@F.E. No context. He just gave an example.
user116848
@snailboat So this isn't optional backshift? I thought it was.
Anonymous
Jul 21, 2014 03:33
Let's see what F.E. has to say :-)
user116848
Yeah :)
F.E.
F.E.
How does this sound to you? "But Jimmy knew back then, when he was just a mere child of twelve, that not everything was revealed at once, especially not around Xmas time."
It is a rule-of-thumb that backshift is usually, and often, optional.
Anonymous
@F.E. Oh, that does sound good
user116848
Yeah past sounds good.
F.E.
F.E.
Adding in a bit of context can help . . .
Anonymous
Jul 21, 2014 03:36
It is a problem sometimes discussing examples devoid of context like these because we can contextualize them differently
F.E.
F.E.
Also, the original version would require "But Jimmy knew that not everything was revealed at once." -- when it is prose in a novel written using past-tense narrative mode.
user116848
So tchrist's sentence was optional backshift.
F.E.
F.E.
But there are contexts when backshift might not be optional, but rather, it be strongly preferred (or required) or strongly not allowed (or not allowed). But I would have to now stop and check CGEL to find those cases, and that is work . . .
@Arrowfar Actually, it would be harder to create a context that would prefer a non-backshift version (which was the original version). This is because the matrix clause uses a preterite ("knew").
user116848
Yeah that's what I thought too.
F.E.
F.E.
Many people aren't really familiar with backshift.
Lots of pedants ain't got a clue, when it comes to backshift.
user116848
Jul 21, 2014 03:41
Yeah I agree.
Anonymous
I always leave questions about backshift to other people like StoneyB. But sometimes people ask me specifically :-)
user116848
@snailboat But you explain it well too I guess.
Anonymous
@Arrowfar Well, I can explain it sometimes.
F.E.
F.E.
It's that Arrowfar's original example probably involved modal remote preterites too, and that can make things confusing when there is also backshift in there.
Then, throw in some past time use of preterites too . . . :D
I often see pedants trying to rationalize all those different preterites as all using only past time use.
Hillarity ensues. :D
I don't think I've found a decent answer in any thread that had asked about the difference between the simple past-tense and the perfect constructions.
The answers seem to assume that the preterites and perfect are only being used for time usage.
And even then, they still don't have it right (assuming only time usage was involved).
It's like they hadn't been taught about modal preterite usage or backshift preterite usage.
And they probably hadn't. :)
user116848
Nods
F.E.
F.E.
Jul 21, 2014 03:48
> Maleficent: "Oh, look. The little beast is about to fall off the cliff." :)
user116848
@F.E. CGEL page 158 discusses that. I guess we also had a discussion in the past about that. But today I got confused again when on ELU chat someone told me to use "present tense". But it is clear now that it is more often than not optional backshift :D
user116848
Yeah you are right, people don't seem to know a lot about backshifting. I also asked many questions on this topic but someone always confuses me.
F.E.
F.E.
Page 157 has a case when backshift is obligatory: [27.ii.b] when said Tuesday had gone past, "Jill said the payment was (not "is") due on Tuesday."
Oh, I'm actually about to re-read that section, as Tiger is now on page 151 in CGEL. :)
Maybe tomorrow, I'll start on that section about backshift.
I've already forgotten what I've just re-read about the perfect, again, as usual. :(
user116848
Sure take your time, and thanks in advance. Also please ping me if you write anything about this here :D
Anonymous
@F.E. It's a lot to fit in a human- or tiger-sized brain.
F.E.
F.E.
Jul 21, 2014 04:03
Yeah, if I'm gonna squeeze something in, it'll be lasagna!
user116848
:)
Anonymous
It doesn't help that the rules for this sort of thing are so different in different languages
F.E.
F.E.
@Arrowfar You know, I did write a good number of answer-posts over on ELU on backshift. Search my account with the backshift tag.
user116848
@F.E. Yeah? Do you have the links. Please give.
user116848
okay let me see....
F.E.
F.E.
Jul 21, 2014 04:05
Tiger only use English. Tiger dialect. :)
user116848
I thought tigers snarled :D
F.E.
F.E.
@Arrowfar Try this: english.stackexchange.com/…
user116848
Yeah I also found it. Thanks.
user116848
@F.E. Please ping me if you write tomorrow anything about backshift. I don't want to miss it :)
 
Conversation ended Jul 21, 2014 at 4:11.