Conversation started Jul 21, 2014 at 1:29.
user116848
Jul 21, 2014 01:29
@F.E. , @snailboat Hey! See this discussion! It's between me, Cerbs and tchrist about backshifting and tell what you think :D chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/16687219#16687219
user116848
And ping me if you want :)
Anonymous
@Arrowfar Sometimes the present isn't possible―generally if you think it's no longer true
Anonymous
Other times both present and past forms are possible
Anonymous
So the sentences aren't the same, but in some cases either can be used.
Cerberus
Cerberus
in English Language & Usage, 3 mins ago, by Cerberus
user image
Anonymous
Jul 21, 2014 01:36
When backshift is optional is covered fairly well in both Quirk et al. 1985 and Huddleston & Pullum 2002
Anonymous
As I said last month:
Anonymous
Jun 21 at 22:53, by snailboat
@Arrowfar Backshift is often optional.
Cerberus
Cerberus
in English Language & Usage, 12 mins ago, by Cerberus
It's optional. Harmony of tenses and such.
This game is too easy.
Anonymous
"Harmony of tenses" is a nice phrase.
user116848
@snailboat So here (see below) you think both sentences are okay?
user116848
Jul 21, 2014 01:41
in English Language & Usage, 20 mins ago, by Arrowfar
Is this sentence grammatical: "If I had more time I would tell you guys what I liked and what I disliked" Or should I say it like this: "If I had more time I would tell you guys what I like and what I dislike"
Anonymous
@Arrowfar Both are grammatical. I'd probably say the former.
user116848
Former to mean present, right?
Anonymous
Former in this case means "the one on the left" (the one you said earlier). Latter means "the one on the right" (the one you said later).
Anonymous
The pair of words former and latter are often used to describe a pair of alternatives, one that is said earlier and one that is said later.
user116848
Yeah I know that. I meant to mean present hypothetical situation?
Anonymous
Jul 21, 2014 01:44
Oh, you're asking what meaning I would assign to the former sentence
user116848
Yes
Anonymous
Yes, it could be used with present time reference
Cerberus
Cerberus
I.e. a timeless fact.
Anonymous
Timeless facts are a good example of when backshift is optional
user116848
Thanks. So "If I had more time I would tell you guys what I liked and what I disliked" can be used to mean present. Unlike what tchrist said that it is past.
Anonymous
Jul 21, 2014 01:45
Mar 14 at 7:44, by snailboat
Although you don't have to backshift if something is "timeless"
Anonymous
Mar 14 at 7:45, by snailboat
"Their teacher had told them that the earth moves around the sun."
Anonymous
Mar 14 at 7:46, by Damkerng T.
Hmm... but suppose that if someone backshifted it, would they be wrong?
Anonymous
Mar 14 at 7:47, by snailboat
@DamkerngT. No, it's just optional, not wrong.
user116848
Yeah I saw the New Jersey question
Anonymous
Mar 14 at 7:47, by Damkerng T.
> Their teacher had told them that the earth moved around the sun.
Anonymous
Jul 21, 2014 01:46
I didn't, so I don't know what you're talking about
Anonymous
Mar 14 at 7:47, by Damkerng T.
I guess the mechanical way is rather safe, generally.
user116848
7
Q: "He didn't know where New Jersey was"

sombeI know the past tense carries the past tense in every dependent clause, but referring specifically to places or to things that are eternal, like the Earth, seems a bit weird and therefore we sometimes (I believe incorrectly) say He didn't know that New Jersey was actually in the East Coast. ...

grammaticality tenses past-vs-present backshifting
Anonymous
Mar 14 at 7:49, by snailboat
As long as you don't claim that the rule must be followed. Instead, present it as a rule which will get you to the right answer
user116848
I see
Anonymous
Pedagogical grammars sometimes present simplified rules of that form: "You must do X!" (No, you don't need to, but if you do you'll manage to say something correctly, so it could be a useful rule for learners anyway)
Anonymous
Jul 21, 2014 01:48
So-called "baby rules", which many learners outgrow
Cerberus
Cerberus
in English Language & Usage, 3 mins ago, by tchrist
> But Jimmy knew that not everything is revealed at once.
Anonymous
The problem is when you tell learners that these rules are, well, rules!, rather than claiming they're helpful guidelines or recommendations
Cerberus
Cerberus
This one is interesting, though ^.
user116848
@snailboat Yeah I get it now. But you saw tchrist comments that my first sentence alludes to past situation. So that confused me.
user116848
in English Language & Usage, 29 mins ago, by tchrist
@Arrowfar You want the second one.
Anonymous
Jul 21, 2014 01:51
That's okay, he can describe it how he likes, and I'll describe it how I like :-) I don't really want to join and argue with him right now
Anonymous
I'm just giving you my take because you asked for it
Cerberus
Cerberus
Wise.
user116848
Yeah you are right :D
user116848
:)
Cerberus
Cerberus
I'm afraid Tchrist is in a (very) small minority here.
 
Conversation ended Jul 21, 2014 at 1:51.