Conversation started Oct 15, 2016 at 20:52.
Oct 15, 2016 20:52
@DanielSank, where would be a good place to learn about how quantum computers are constructed? I know some general things, but I can't seem to find any specifics.
@heather There are several aspects of that question.
Are you interested in the physical realization of qubits, how qubits are thought to be connected up to form a useful system, or about the whole system including the classical computer algorithms needed for error correction?
@DanielSank, well, probably all of that. I understand that qubits can be realized as electrons, or photons, or other elementary particles, using spin. But I don't know much else about it.
@heather Are you aware that qubits can be realized by things other than elementary particles?
@DanielSank, can they be represented by atoms? (Short answer to your question being no.)
user218912
is quantum field theory used in the field of ultracold condensed matter?
Oct 15, 2016 21:03
@bl00 Yes.
@heather Yeah you can make qubits out of atoms.
Did you know you can also make qubits out of much, much bigger things?
user218912
@DanielSank how much field theory is used in quantum computing?
@bl00 In my experience, only a little. We use basic QFT when we have distributed elements like coaxial line resonators.
user218912
okay, thanks.
@DanielSank, can you make a qubit out of any object that exhibits quantum effects?
@heather In principle, yes.
In reality, you need those objects to:
1) Maintain quantum coherence long enough to do useful stuff.
2) Couple to each other strongly enough to actually do logic.
3) Be measurable.
4) Be controllable.
That's a pretty tall order.
@heather Here's something you might find very interesting.
Consider a normal computer.
Do you know how the data in that computer is physically realized?
Oct 15, 2016 21:13
@DanielSank, well, I know that data in the computer is represented as bits, and that bits can be represented as differences in voltage or magnetic field (I'm pretty sure the magnetic field is used in memory, which just might be why it's bad to have a phone and a magnet in the same pocket).
@heather Yeah, good. Each bit is a single physical system with two possible states. Those can be voltage states, charge states, magnetic dipole orientation...
Of course, note that you can use an abacus to do computations too. In that case, the physical information is the position of beads on a wire.
The point is that information is physical.
okay, so you know that in a computer you have data stored in bits.
Call that the "memory".
Right
Now suppose you want the computer to do something.
What happens to the data in that memory?
Well, it's manipulated, by passing through gates, right? Like the AND and OR and all the gates that can be built from those two.
Oct 15, 2016 21:16
So it would be transferred, maybe converted from a mangetic dipole orientation to a voltage state because it is leaving the memory (how would that work?) and then passed through a gate, where the charge is changed somehow (how would that work?) and then passed back to the memory where it is converted back again.
^ Excellent
You've identified all the important physical steps in information processing!
Let's focus on the part where you say "...where the charge is changed somehow...".
Yeah, that's a tad vague.
It's fine!
Okay, I've got a guess:
Inside the logic gate itself, the voltages of the two bits have to interact in some way, such that the output voltage is produced as desired.
Ok, give your guess.
Oct 15, 2016 21:18
Actually, okay, I tried to write it and realized it made no sense. So nevermind. =)
Well, let's not get into too much detail. The point is that somehow we need a physical system in which the two voltages interact in a way that manifests a NAND gate.
Like, you have to actually build a physical system where the voltage at one point is the NAND of the voltages at two other points.
Right?
(transistors are good for that, by the way)
@DanielSank, okay, yeah, that makes sense.
And that would explain why when I've done a few simple circuits controlling various things, I've used transistors.
Yeah ok, now here's the thing...
it's the same story in quantum computation.
You have to build a physical system which is quantum mechanical and in which you can get the state of the qubits to transform based on your desired logic.
Yeah, that makes sense.
You have to build a quantum system wherein the qubits physically interact in the right way to perform logic operations.
Oct 15, 2016 21:23
Okay, that sounded hard enough when you have macroscopic objects...
So here's the deal: you need qubits that are coherent and qubits that interact.
The problem is that coherence and interaction are fundamentally against each other.
Coherent: what exactly does that mean?
I'm about to tell you.
Oh, okay. =)
"Coherent" essentially means "stays quantum", and in the end that really means "doesn't interact with the environment against my will".
If a quantum system interacts with random stuff that you don't know about, the quantum state "leaks" into the surrounding degrees of freedom and your qubit is no longer in a nice quantum state.
Oct 15, 2016 21:25
Oh! Because measuring a qubit means it "collapses".
Yes, it's a similar idea.
So you have to isolate the qubit from the world.
Yes, basically.
But then you need the qubit to interact with other qubits for the gates...
Consider an electron: that thing is super duper small and has a tiny electric field. Therefore, it doesn't interact strongly with stuff.
@heather Yes!
Oct 15, 2016 21:25
Wow, how do you pull that off?
...but that also means the electron doesn't interact with other electrons very strongly either.
@heather It's hard. That's why we're all working our butts off!
Huh, okay - does that mean you are sacrificing interact-ness for coherence (with the electron)?
You have to build something where the qubits interact with each other exactly the way you want, but not with anything else.
@heather Yes.
Basically yes.
But then with bigger objects I'm guessing you have more interact-ness but less coherence.
There are always these articles coming out about some latest and greatest qubit with amazing coherence, but in so many cases, those qubits aren't so great because they don't interact well.
@heather Yep.
Oct 15, 2016 21:27
Okay, that makes sense. So then how do you build something where they interact exactly the way you want?
Our qubits are several hundred microns in size. That's about a million times larger than an atom.
@heather There are various strategies.
The original one was to use atoms (actually ions) as qubits. They are trapped in space using laser light, and you move the atoms around.
You also use the laser to manipulate the quantum state.
Oh, I read about this! The laser excites the atom to a higher state (more to a 1) right?
It actually works! The approach there is essentially to start with something very, very coherent (the atoms) and force them to interact using insanely strong electromagnetic fields (the laser) and very close distances.
@heather Yeah.
What is wrong with doing that? Or is it just that there is a better way?
That approach works pretty ok, but they're sort of stuck because they can't get 2D arrays of ions to work.
They've only done 1D chains of ions and that limits the performance of the "computer" severely.
The Nobel was given to Dave Wineland a couple years ago (or last year?). He's a big figure in trapped ions.
Oct 15, 2016 21:31
2D arrays of ions? Does that mean the ions can only be in a line instead of a grid?
And if so, why is that true? Is it because of the electromagnetic fields?
@heather Yes.
@heather Yeah, more or less.
The engineering challenge of getting ions trapped in a 2D grid is very hard.
So hard that the field of trapped ions is sort of stuck.
That makes sense.
But how does the 1D thing limit the performance of the computer?
This is an important note: much of real life experimental physics is decided by engineering capabilities.
What can and cannot be built in the lab by the people in that lab is very important. It's important for physicists, both theorists and experimentalists, to understand what can be built, and for experimentalists to train hard in good building skills.
@heather Well, consider a normal computer. Suppose your computer program says this:
x = 4
y = 1
z = x + y
Suppose x and y happen to be stored in parts of memory that are physically very far away.
Sure.
In a normal computer, we just run wires to ship the data around.
In a 1D chain of qubits, that's not so easy :)
So now you can't do certain logic operations easily.
You have to do all kinds of intermediate steps to do what would otherwise be a simple operation.
It turns out that this is a very big problem when it comes to error correction.
You see, no quantum system remains coherent forever. There's always a limit.
We don't hope to get that limit high enough that all the qubits are coherent for the duration of an algorithm.
Instead, it turns out that you can do error correction on quantum systems, so we need to get the coherence high enough to make error correction work.
Oct 15, 2016 21:37
And the coherence can be lower for error correction?
In 1D, the operations needed for error correction are too slow to work. In 2D the requirements are vastly easier to satisfy.
Oh, that makes sense.
@heather Yeah. You can do a round of error correction way faster than you can do an entire computational algorithm.
But how exactly does error correction work? Does it "recognize" decoherence and get the calculation back on track?
@heather Yes.
Oct 15, 2016 21:38
How in the universe...? Okay, that's cool.
The details require a bit of mathematics that you probably don't know yet (and you have to know quantum mechanics), but that's the basic idea.
Okay.
@heather Yes it is. It's actually totally amazing that quantum error correction is even possible.
It's a relatively new discovery, actually.
A lot of quantum computing is amazing. =) I bet the person who discovered quantum error correction got the Nobel prize!
This question may be a bit dumb, but what exactly is the problem with a path-dependent potential? I am not quite sure about this one, I think besides it will be a mutlivalued function, maybe things are just too complicated if you are dealing with a path dependent potential.
Oct 15, 2016 21:40
@heather I don't think so.
I think the first quantum error correction code might have been from Peter Shor. Lemme check.
Wikipedia seems to suggest it was Shor.
@heather I see the article, but where does it give the chronology?
@DanielSank, at the bottom it says Models, and it lists Shor's first, and the rest improve on his (for example, the second one uses 7 qubits instead of 9) which suggests that his was first. Of course, I'm not sure.
Well I guess for starters is that such potential will be defined by an integral
$$\Phi(\mathcal{C})=\int_{\mathcal{C}}\textrm{blahblahblah} d\mu$$ thus doing calculus on it will automatically be functional calculus stuff, which is a lot less straightforward than the usual calculus as the whole path have to be taken account of in order to define the potential
Oct 15, 2016 21:43
@Secret What does a path dependent potential mean?
I guess I'm asking: how do you define "potential"?
@heather any idea when you'll be in CA?
@DanielSank, unfortunately not yet.
@DanielSank it can mean any normal electric potential under a changing electric field.
My parents were trying to figure that out the other night.
It basically will mean that the value of $\Phi$ will be determined by the set of points in a path in some kind of state space. I think Feymann path integrals has a similar logic
which depends on path
or a magnetic scalar potential
Oct 15, 2016 21:45
@DanielSank, I'll keep reading about quantum error correction. So lasers/trapped ions don't work currently. What are the other options?
So you're defining potential as the integral, along a curve, of the electric field?
@heather Well, what do you mean by "work"?
Nobody has built a fully functioning quantum computer in any physical system.
user218912
idk if I want to be a theorist because there is just too much to learn...
(Caveat: I'm only talking about gate-based quantum computing, i.e. not quantum annealers)
@DanielSank, perhaps by that I mean it is hard to improve upon the current system to get to a fully functioning computer.
@bl00 There's a lot to learn in experiment too, bro.
2
user218912
Oct 15, 2016 21:47
@DanielSank xD
@heather Yeah, it's hard, but note that folks are working on it.
NB googling "path dependent potentials" found a bunch of interesting papers related to feymann integral stuff. I am guessing such potential is the norm in QFT
The "big players" are:
1) Trapped ions
2) Electron spins in silicon crystals
3) Superconducting circuits (my lab)
4) photons
@DanielSank, okay. So currently it is an engineering problem, but it still could be solved such that 2D arrays are possible?
@heather yeah, it's really hard but I'm not ready to say they'll never get it to work.
Oct 15, 2016 21:49
@DanielSank, okay. Sounds like I have a lot of reading to do about all the different methods. =)
Anyway, I need to sleep now cause its 8:48 am in my place. Really hate Aust timezones so out of alignment with the northern hemisphere
@heather I wouldn't even know what to say you should read.
The google will help me. =)
If you find good stuff, please let me know.
Oh actually, you know what you could try? Chapter 1 of my thesis.
A few non-scientists told me they found the first chapter good at explaining the basics.
@DanielSank, okay! One last question: the photon implementation of quantum computing - is that what this is talking about?
Or is that something different?
Oct 15, 2016 21:54
yeah, basically
That approach is really, really, really hard.
They have super awesome coherence but doing logic is dang near impossible.
Doing computations with light doesn't exactly sound simple.
@heather It's not. Photons really don't like to interact with one another.
@DanielSank, how exactly do these four approaches compare in terms of success? I mean, what is, for example, the largest number of qubits set up using each method?
Largest number of qubits in gate model quantum computing is probably trapped ions.
If you include quantum annealing, it's superconducting circuits by a huge margin.
Okay, I don't quite understand: what is quantum annealing and how does it differ from quantum computing?
Oct 15, 2016 22:00
It's a version of quantum computing.
1) Quantum computing = processing information using quantum systems.
2) Gate model quantum computing = doing #1 by making the qubits do logic gates.
3) Quantum annealing = doing #1 by letting a quantum system fall into the ground state, measuring that state, and taking the result as the answer to a minimization problem.
Oh, so 1 is the overarching thing and then 2 and 3 are ways to do that thing. 2 is what uses things like Hadamard gates and CNOT gates, and what we've been talking about.
For quantum annealing, then, would the structure of the information processing be different? Because you don't have a gate changing the bit/qubit state?
@heather Yeah, it's very different.
@DanielSank, oh. Does your lab do both?
Oct 15, 2016 22:05
@heather Yeah.
Cool!
Huh, I think I'll have to read about quantum annealing - I'm not sure I understand how it works.
@heather Well, I can explain the basic idea.
Suppose I want to find the values of the variables that minimize this expression:
$$x^2 - 4y - z + 3 xz + 2xy - 3 yz$$
And suppose each of the variables can only be $\pm 1$.
That's an example of a minimization problem.
Many problems can be expressed as minimization problems.
Okay, so it is reducing an expression where the variables can only be $\pm$ a number?
Or is it more general than that?
Not sure what you mean.
We're asking to find the values of the variables that makes the value of the expression as small as possible.
So, you could just try all the possible values of the variables, but that's slow.
But then can't you pick $- \infty$ for each of the variables? Or do you say that the variables can only be $\pm$ a number you pick?
Oct 15, 2016 22:11
Each variable can only be $\pm 1$.
Oh, okay.
That makes sense.
Another approach would be to literally build a physical system with three degrees of freedom, $x$, $y$, and $z$, whose energy is given by our expression.
Oh...huh, okay.
Then you'd just let the system fall to its low energy state and measure the values of the parameters.
Done.
However, this doesn't actually work because there can be local minima: arrangements of the system that have lower energy than other nearby arrangements, but which are not actually the lowest overall energy arrangement.
The system can get stuck in those arrangements.
Oh, okay, that makes sense. How do you fix that?
Oct 15, 2016 22:14
So, "annealing" is where you start the system off in some random arrangement, but at a high temperature. The thermal motion causes the system to bounce around. The idea is that if the system gets stuck in a local minimum, the thermal motion should un-stuck it.
Then you slowly lower the temperature and eventually when the temperature is low enough you should be in the ground state.
Huh, that's cool!
This has problems too though because thermally escaping a local minimum can be slow.
etc. etc.
Now, "quantum annealing" is actually a misnomer. I'm not going to go into the exact details, but we don't actually change the temperature... we change something else.
Don't worry about it.
Okay. So, what's an example of a problem that can be represented as a minimization problem? Would, say, the traveling salesman problem be a minimization problem?
Anyway, the point of quantum annealing is that quantum tunneling should help your system escape local minima without having to go over the energy barriers.
The system goes through them instead!
Oh, that's so cool!
Oct 15, 2016 22:16
That's the goal.
There's a company called DWave that is already selling quantum annealers.
However, it remains to be seen whether they actually work better than anything else.
I've read about that. People seem to have rather strong feelings on the subject.
It may be worth mentioning that the annealing concept can be added to many (most? nearly all?) MCMC type simulations.
They're initial idea was that maybe coherence doesn't matter much for quantum annealing, so they built a system with lots and lots of qubits, but they're all very not coherent.
@dmckee Yes, although note that MCMC may not be known to our young participant here.
@DanielSank yes, in that case
@heather Indeed they do.
I have to go do some house work, @heather. This was fun. I'm always happy to chat.
Oct 15, 2016 22:19
@DanielSank, thanks so much for all your help! This conversation was quite enlightening.
@DanielSank I'm trying to figure how to explain it in a few words. I mean "step-wise random exploration of the configuration space" is accurate but perhaps not very clear.
@dmckee Sounds clear to me :P
I joke.
@dmckee, google tells me that MCMC is the Markov Chain Monte Carlo. Is that right?
Yeah. That.
The Metropolis-Hastings algorithm is very common in nuclear and particle applications.
Oh geesh. I've clicked through three times (Markov chain, stochastic process, markov property) and I still have no idea what in the universe it is talking about.
Oct 15, 2016 22:21
Hey @heather, where are you in math?
You sample the system at under some configuration then use random numbers to pick a new place "near by" to sample again.
@DanielSank, I've taken Algebra I, I'm in the middle of geometry, and I have taught myself some basic linear algebra.
And I'm starting to teach myself trigonometry.
Deciding how to choose the steps and when to take or reject the steps is where all the fun happens.
@dmckee, so it is sort of like having a function, and then picking a random x, and seeing what the y is, and then picking another random x to get another random y?
Or do I misunderstand the "under some configuration" part?
@heather Exactly. And you are trying to find the ;largest value of the function in some range.
Oct 15, 2016 22:24
or smallest.
Only the function is too complicated to just use calculus and the range is too big to just try "all" possible options.
Doesn't matter, obviously, because you can just put a minus sign in front of the function.
@dmckee, so it is like the opposite of the minimization problem (unless you use the minus sign in front of the function).
@heather Well, Metropolis is usually conceived in terms of maximization, but the process doesn't care what kind of extreme you are looking for.
Huh, that's really cool. So it can be used to solve problems as well? How is it run on a computer?
Oct 15, 2016 22:26
In the real problem the function depends on many variable $f = f(x,y,z,w,u,v,s,t,p,r,q,...)$ and may take quite a lot of (classical) processing to evaluate.
And I assume this is where quantum annealing comes in?
Traditionally these problems have been hand coded, but there are frameworks to make that faster and easier than writing it from scratch.
@heather Well, it is where any kind of simulated annealing comes in. The quantum bit is expected (hoped?) to make it faster.
@dmckee, oh! I didn't realize you could do it on classical computers as well.
 
Conversation ended Oct 15, 2016 at 22:28.