Conversation started Feb 6, 2020 at 9:24.
Feb 6, 2020 09:24
@Jasmine the path difference should be easy to find.
Did you have a particular question you're trying to do?
@JohnRennie seems like I am not clear with basics
@JohnRennie Suppose we have a YDSE setup and we put the whole setup in water
OK. Or would it be better to start with the YSDE in air then see how it changes in water?
So at infinity distance from central maxima what will be the path difference if the distance between 2 slits is d
@JohnRennie yes
I've got a diagram I use for this. Give me a moment to find it ...
@JohnRennie ok
I know a light ray travels kx distance where k is the geometrical distance and k is refractive index of that medium
Feb 6, 2020 09:29
The key point is that since we assume the screen is at infinity we can treat the rays as parallel. Then the difference in the length of the two rays is just the bit marked on the diagram i.e. the $d\sin\theta$.
OK so far?
@JohnRennie the screen is at D distance from slit
As long as the screen distance is much larger than the slit spacing it is effectively at infinity i.e. we can treat the two rays as parallel.
By infinity I meant at infinity from central maxima on the screen upwards
@JohnRennie if the rays are parallel then how will they interfere
In a real experiment the rays aren't parallel because they have to converge to the same spot on the screen. But say the screen is 1m away and the slit spacing is 10 microns - these are typical dimensions. Then the angle between the rays is 0.00001 radians or 0.0006°.
So it's a very very good approximation to treat them as parallel.
3 mins ago, by Jasmine
@JohnRennie if the rays are parallel then how will they interfere
Feb 6, 2020 09:38
Hmm, we're obviously misunderstanding each other.
We consider the three angles to be equal by approximation
But we cant say they are parallel I guess
@JohnRennie :-(
What I'm saying is that if we take the rays to be parallel then we get the path difference to be $d\sin\theta$. The rays aren't exactly parallel, but they are so close to being parallel that $d\sin\theta$ is still an excellent approximation to the path difference.
@JohnRennie ok ok
Technically we are working in the Fraunhofer limit i.e. the approximation that the screen is at infinity. Even though this is obviously never true, it is an excellent approximation in many situations. This limit gives us Fraunhofer diffraction.
@Jasmine so are you happy with my construction and how it calculates the path difference to be $d\sin\theta$?
@JohnRennie yes though we were taught a different logic for it
Though the both imply the same, I see
Feb 6, 2020 09:45
I think the diagram I've draw is the simplest way to understand the Young's slits because the calculation is so straightforward.
Anyhow ...
This path difference is a real distance measured in metres. It doesn't matter whether the experiment is in air, water, or whatever. This distance is just a physical distance.
OK so far?
@JohnRennie so will that mean even if the experiment is carried out in water the path difference will still be dsin(theta)
Yes, but what matters is not the physical path difference. It is the phase difference between the two rays. Suppose the path difference is $\ell$ (i.e. $\ell = d\sin\theta$) then the phase difference is $\phi = 2\pi\ell/\lambda$.
Is it obvious how I got this or do I need to explain it?
@JohnRennie yea I understand
And this is where the difference between air and water appears, because in water the wavelength becomes $\lambda_w = \lambda_0/\mu$, where $\mu$ is the refractive index of the water.
@JohnRennie yup..
Feb 6, 2020 09:55
We get constructive interference when the phase difference is an integer multiple of $2\pi$, and we get destructive interference when the phase difference is an integer multiple of $2\pi$ plus $\pi$.
If $\theta \to \pi/2$ then using my equation we get $\sin\theta \to 1$ so the path difference is $\ell \to d$
@JohnRennie yes and optical path difference will be ud
But the answer given is d
Yes, in water the optical path difference would be $\mu d$. I would have to see the question to understand why they give the answer as just $d$.
@JohnRennie gimme me a minute, I would like to explain the exact question
I hope you aren't in a rush
Feb 6, 2020 10:03
Can you post a photo of the question?
@JohnRennie This question was given by our sir in class so I cant get the photo of it
According to the question, A man conducted YDSE setup in air and the number of total maxima he got was 'n' then he conducted the same experiment in water then calculated the total number of maxima as 'm' . Find relation between n and m if refractive index of water is u
4 mins ago, by Jasmine
user image
This was the solution given to us^
Which I dont understand
As they equated the path difference in air and water
The number of maxima is given by $d/\lambda$. Is it obvious why that is or do I need to explain it?
@JohnRennie yes
Is that "yes it is obvious" or "yes please explain it" ?
@JohnRennie yes it is obvious :-)
Feb 6, 2020 10:13
:-)
OK so that means $n = d/\lambda_{air}$ and $m = d/\lambda_{water}$. Yes?
@JohnRennie yes
So if we simply divide one equation by the other we get:
I understand that we will reach the same answer
OK, so where's the problem?
But I am not sure of what the solution is implying
9 mins ago, by Jasmine
user image
Feb 6, 2020 10:16
Well the question asks you to find the refractive index of the water. Yes?
In the solution we shouldn't equate delta x
Ohhh is delta x the path difference
And not optical path difference
$d$ (or $\Delta x$) is just the spacing between the slits i.e. just a physical distance.
@JohnRennie Ohhh I see
e.g. if the slits are ten microns apart then $d = 10\mu m$. In air and in water.
I think I got it clear
I thought delta x is optical path difference
@JohnRennie also why we arent including central maxima
@JohnRennie I think I need more help
@JohnRennie shouldnt it be 2[n] +1 where n is greatest integer function
Feb 6, 2020 10:36
@Jasmine I would guess the question means count the maxima starting at the centre and counting outwards as $\theta \to \pi/2$.
Suppose $d = \lambda$, then we get the central maximum an a maximum at $\theta = \pi/2$. But we can't observe the maximum at $\pi/2$ because it never reaches the screen.
So if $d = n\lambda$ that means we can only see $n$ maxima starting our count from the centre.
@JohnRennie what about the maximas where theta is negative
My guess is your teacher meant you not to count those.
@JohnRennie but is it logical
I mean there isnt any reason to leave those
I didn't see the question so I can't say exactly what your teacher did or didn't mean.
@JohnRennie ohhh anyways I got the logic behind it :-) Thank you !
Feb 6, 2020 10:40
I must admit I assumed the count was only for one half because when I've seen similar questions that's how they were stated.
If your teacher didn't make it clear then it was a bad question.
@JohnRennie in general what do we count
@Jasmine you'd have to read the question and hope it made it clear what maxima you were counting.
We count the central maxima but dont count the one on $ +{\infty}$
Yes
Because the one at $\theta = \pi/2$ never reaches the screen.
 
Conversation ended Feb 6, 2020 at 10:41.