Modalities

Schoko

Nov 14, 2015 07:20

2

Newcomer in the Japanese stackexchange. :) My knowledge in the language is fairly limited and I need your help. I'd like to know how is "My little sister can't run this fast" in Japanese? Different online translations give different variations. I don't know how correct or "stiff" they are. And...

translation

My little sister can't run this fastのcan't って

ability?

possibility?

「こんなに早く走れない」 or 「こんなに早く走るはずがない」？

Anonymous

Nov 14, 2015 07:34

@Schoko I think without context that sentence would probably be interpreted as possibility

Schoko

@snailboat おお・・・そうすると、変幻出没さんの回答のほうがそれに近いわけね・・

Anonymous

> 1. My little sister can run this fast. (dynamic modality - possibility)
> 2. My little sister can't run this fast. (dynamic modality - possibility)
> 3. *My little sister can run this fast. (epistemic modality - necessity)　←　The epistemic use of "can" is only grammatical in non-affirmative contexts, so this doesn't work
> 4. My little sister can't run this fast. (epistemic modality - necessity)

Anonymous

But I guess in this context it has to be the epistemic meaning, like はずがない

Schoko

おおお・・・necessity?

necessity =「はず」？

Anonymous

はず expresses epistemic necessity

Schoko

Nov 14, 2015 07:42

おお・・おｋ

Anonymous

Western linguists like Heiko Narrog list はず and に違いない as expressing epistemic necessity in Japanese

Anonymous

In English there's must

Anonymous

"That must be true!"

Anonymous

And can, but only in negatives "That can't be true!"

Anonymous

Western linguists usually divide each kind of modality into necessity and possibility

Anonymous

Nov 14, 2015 07:47

So there's epistemic necessity, epistemic possibility, deontic necessity, deontic possibility, . . .

Schoko

Eiríkr Útlendi さんの「俺の妹がこんなに速くは走れない」は、すこし不自然で（そのせいでDVされたのかどうかわかりませんが）、「俺の妹はこんなに速く走れない」のほうが自然だと思う‌のですが、それでは「はずだ」が訳出されていないので、どうしようかと・・・

Anonymous

I haven't looked at the answers yet

Schoko

お・・おｋ

「速く走れない」は、ability になるのかしら。

possibility?

She is not able to.. みたいな？

Anonymous

Yeah, ability = dynamic possibility

Anonymous

I should probably just have said ability instead of using a technical term :-)

Anonymous

Nov 14, 2015 07:52

That's what I meant in sentences 1 and 2 up there.

Anonymous

Sorry for making things confusing :-)

Anonymous

Yeah, I think Eiríkr Útlendi misinterpreted the question

Schoko

@snailboat いあいあ！

@snailboat おおお・・・

Anonymous

The OP wants to translate it like that anime title, but Eiríkr Útlendi translated it like the way most people would interpret "My little sister can't run this fast" out of context

Anonymous

The romaji over the kana hurt my brain a little

Anonymous

Nov 14, 2015 07:58

Oh, it's わけがない and not はずがない

Anonymous

I got mixed up! :-)

Schoko

わけがない、はずがない・・・って、たいていどっちでもいいような。。。そんなに違うかなぁ

俺の妹がこんなに可愛いわけがない
俺の妹がこんなに可愛いはずがない

俺の妹がそんなに速く走るわけがない。
俺の妹がそんなに速く走るはずがない。

ううむ

俺の妹がそんなに速く走れるわけがない・はずがない

のほうがいいような・・・

Anonymous

"There's no way my little sister can run this fast!"

Schoko

なんで?って言われると、説明できないけど、

@snailboat そうそう、そうなっちゃうよね

Anonymous

That's a little better in English, too :-)

Anonymous

Nov 14, 2015 08:05

That way no one would misunderstand can

Anonymous

And I guess it works a little better with the ability meaning there

Schoko

「俺の妹がそんなに速く走るわけがない・はずがない。」だと、「走れる能力はあるが、敢えて走らないだろう」みたいな感じに。

@snailboat おお！まぢ

Anonymous

Nov 14, 2015 11:18

So, anyone want to run for moderator? :-) We're in our second nomination phase, and we need more candidates!

5

unarist

Nov 14, 2015 15:14

そんなわけあるか！ vs そんなはずあるか！
こんなはずじゃなかったのに vs こんなわけじゃなかったのに

「～わけがない」「～はずがない」も若干違う気はするものの・・・説明できるほどではなかった

Schoko

@unarist あっほんとだ。過去形にしたら全然違う！

Flaw

Nov 14, 2015 16:14

@snailboat can I ask more about these modalities

what does "4. My little sister can't run this fast. (epistemic modality - necessity)" mean?

Schoko

@snailboat pinとゆう機能を使ってみた＾＾

Anonymous

Nov 15, 2015 04:12

@Flaw Do you understand the concept of modality in general?

Anonymous

> There are two snails on that leaf.

Anonymous

This sentence expresses a simple proposition.

Anonymous

> There might be two snails on that leaf.

Anonymous

Here, I inserted the modal auxiliary might.

Anonymous

It adds modality to the sentence. Specifically, epistemic modality.

Anonymous

Nov 15, 2015 04:14

With might, the speaker isn't asserting that the proposition is true.

Anonymous

They're just saying there's a chance that it's true.

Anonymous

This is a kind of non-propositional meaning.

Anonymous

Modality has been characterized a number of different ways. We can say that it shows the speaker's attitude toward the proposition expressed by the sentence.

Anonymous

It might be true, or it must be true, or it's possible that it's true, or it should be true.

Anonymous

In English, the most important way modality is expressed is with the modal auxiliaries will, would, can, could, shall, should, may, might, must, ought, need, dare

Anonymous

Nov 15, 2015 04:18

And we also have modal adverbs like probably

Anonymous

There are some other ways to express modality, too, like It seems like

Anonymous

Looking at that list of words, I'm sure you can see they express a lot of different kinds of meaning

Anonymous

And different linguists have categorized modal meaning in different ways over the years

Anonymous

Western linguists traditionally divide modality into epistemic and deontic modality.

Anonymous

Epistemic modality (from the Greek word for 'knowledge') expresses meanings related to what is necessary or possible given what we know (or believe)

Anonymous

Nov 15, 2015 04:21

Deontic modality (from the Greek word for 'obligation') expresses meanings related to what's required or permitted

Anonymous

Some modern linguists add dynamic modality, meanings related to ability and volition

Anonymous

English speakers tend not to realize that almost all of these modal auxiliaries has multiple meanings

Anonymous

> You must apologize, right now!　＝　You have to apologize!

Anonymous

This is deontic must. It expresses an obligation.

Anonymous

> Your boss hasn't arrived at the office yet? She must have overslept again.

Anonymous

Nov 15, 2015 04:23

This is epistemic must. It expresses uncertainty.

Anonymous

Why do I say "uncertainty"? Well . . .

Anonymous

> She overslept again.

Anonymous

This is the basic sentence expressing the proposition without any non-propositional meaning.

Anonymous

If I say this, but I don't know for a fact that she overslept, it would be quite strange, wouldn't it?

Anonymous

When I use must this way, I'm expressing a deduction I made based on some evidence. It's something I think is likely to be true, but I don't actually know that it's true.

Anonymous

Nov 15, 2015 04:25

So I add epistemic modality to my sentence.

Anonymous

We can also divide each type of modality into necessity and possibility.

Anonymous

Epistemic possibility can be fairly weak. "There's a chance that there are two snails on that leaf. There could be two snails on that leaf. It's possible that there are two snails on that leaf."

Anonymous

Epistemic necessity is stronger, more certain. It expresses conclusions that you think must be true based on your knowledge or beliefs.

Anonymous

It's still not completely certain. "You must be tired!" is less certain than "You're tired!"

Anonymous

I wouldn't say "You must be tired!" if I didn't think that it must be true based on some knowledge or belief that I have.

Anonymous

Nov 15, 2015 04:30

"Oh, you worked all night? You must be really tired!"

Anonymous

I know you worked all night, and it follows that you must be tired.

Anonymous

"Oh, you worked all night? You're really tired!" ← This is strange. I can't read your mind and know that you're tired.

Anonymous

I can only conclude that it's highly likely based on you working all night.

Anonymous

Now, usually the English modal can expresses dynamic modality. That is, its main use is expressing meanings related to ability.

Anonymous

"I can run a mile in six minutes!"

Anonymous

Nov 15, 2015 04:33

The epistemic meaning of can shows up, though, in non-affirmative contexts. That is to say, negative sentences and questions.

Anonymous

It expresses disbelief or incredulity, the conclusion that something is highly unlikely to be true based on some knowledge or belief that you have.

Anonymous

If I asked you to write a program by next week, and you wrote it all in the next five minutes, I might say:

Anonymous

> You can't have written it all in the last five minutes! That's crazy!

Anonymous

But English speakers very rarely use can to express epistemic necessity in affirmative contexts:

Anonymous

> Oh, you're done already? *You can have written it all in the last five minutes.

Anonymous

Nov 15, 2015 04:36

In English, almost every modal auxiliary can express more than one type of modality.

Anonymous

As you can see, describing modality in English is pretty complicated! :-)

Anonymous

It's not very simple in Japanese either, but in Japanese modals usually only express one kind of modality.

Anonymous

So for example, 〜かもしれない generally expresses epistemic possibility.

Anonymous

It's not polysemous like the English modal auxiliaries.

Anonymous

We can divide other types of modality into necessity and possibility, too. Deontic necessity is obligation. You must do your homework! Deontic possibility is permission. You can have ice cream after dinner.

Anonymous

Nov 15, 2015 04:41

(See, there's can, being polysemous again! :-)

Anonymous

In Heiko Narrog's description of Japanese modality, there's a fourth kind of modality, in addition to dynamic, deontic, and epistemic. Narrog adds boulomaic modality, expressing meanings related to desire and volition (wanting, wishing, hoping)

Anonymous

And although it's usually considered part of epistemic modality, some linguists give evidential modality as a separate category.

Anonymous

So although the traditional categorization just has epistemic and deontic, various linguists have expanded it in different ways.

Anonymous

Some Japanese linguists, in fact, have expanded the concept of modality considerably.

Anonymous

If you hear people talk about explanatory modality, that's a Japanese concept used to describe のだ.

Anonymous

Nov 15, 2015 04:46

Some of these categories (dynamic, boulomaic, explanatory, etc.) might be considered somewhat peripheral to the core concept of modality.

Anonymous

But a lot of linguists are nonetheless happy to take the concept and run with it, categorizing all sorts of things as types of modality :-)

Anonymous

By the way, Japanese linguists have written a lot about modality. If you want to look it up, it's just called モダリティ in Japanese.

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